Updated FBR - 11/25/11

Guess Who wrote:

twomattiesmom wrote:

RoidRage wrote:No one still hasnt explained to me how FCD Premier with a 12-2-1 record is ranked below DT South with a 17-8-1 record. The strength of schedule should be about the same as they both play in the same league and FCD has beaten DT South 2 out of 3 last times in the last month. Is the reason because DT South has just played more games and thus won more games? Does it matter that South has lost 4x as many games as FCD. The same argument can be had with Bennett who has a better record and has beaten South the last 2 times they played and the SOS should also be about the same since they played the same league. What gives? Can 02 Dad give me any incite on why this is out of wack?

I guess because they beat Higg?

DT South didnt beat higg it was a tie, and by my understanding a tie recives no points.

Sorry, my bad.

RoidRage wrote:No one still hasnt explained to me how FCD Premier with a 12-2-1 record is ranked below DT South with a 17-8-1 record. The strength of schedule should be about the same as they both play in the same league and FCD has beaten DT South 2 out of 3 last times in the last month. Is the reason because DT South has just played more games and thus won more games? Does it matter that South has lost 4x as many games as FCD. The same argument can be had with Bennett who has a better record and has beaten South the last 2 times they played and the SOS should also be about the same since they played the same league. What gives? Can 02 Dad give me any incite on why this is out of wack?

This brings it full circle to my original point. FBR can be counted on to differentiate effectively between competitive tiers. I am confident that team #5 would beat team #12 barring some serious fluke. But, other than the bragging rights, the system does not really do a good job gauging between #2 and #4. Either team can win on a given day - they are by definition - competitive. Soccer is NOT a sport where the slightly better team ALWAYS wins.

FBR, based on results alone, is like a rusty machete... it hacks away at the kudzu growing in the soccer jungle well enough, but you don't want to use it for radial keratotomy to improve your soccer eyesight (and therefore accurately predict head-to-head outcomes). There is no team in the 02's that is so head-and-shoulders above the rest that it will go undefeated for a year. I know that has happened in previous years, but I don't see it happening in this class.

The discussion should really focus on which teams are in tier one, tier two, tier three - and then which teams are most likely to move up or down a tier. Arguing about if and when DT South or FC Prem will make it to number one, while being measured by a limited tool, just provides entertainment rather than understanding.

deepthoughts wrote:

RoidRage wrote:No one still hasnt explained to me how FCD Premier with a 12-2-1 record is ranked below DT South with a 17-8-1 record. The strength of schedule should be about the same as they both play in the same league and FCD has beaten DT South 2 out of 3 last times in the last month. Is the reason because DT South has just played more games and thus won more games? Does it matter that South has lost 4x as many games as FCD. The same argument can be had with Bennett who has a better record and has beaten South the last 2 times they played and the SOS should also be about the same since they played the same league. What gives? Can 02 Dad give me any incite on why this is out of wack?

This brings it full circle to my original point. FBR can be counted on to differentiate effectively between competitive tiers. I am confident that team #5 would beat team #12 barring some serious fluke. But, other than the bragging rights, the system does not really do a good job gauging between #2 and #4. Either team can win on a given day - they are by definition - competitive. Soccer is NOT a sport where the slightly better team ALWAYS wins.

FBR, based on results alone, is like a rusty machete... it hacks away at the kudzu growing in the soccer jungle well enough, but you don't want to use it for radial keratotomy to improve your soccer eyesight (and therefore accurately predict head-to-head outcomes). There is no team in the 02's that is so head-and-shoulders above the rest that it will go undefeated for a year. I know that has happened in previous years, but I don't see it happening in this class.

The discussion should really focus on which teams are in tier one, tier two, tier three - and then which teams are most likely to move up or down a tier. Arguing about if and when DT South or FC Prem will make it to number one, while being measured by a limited tool, just provides entertainment rather than understanding.

Good point. This mess will never stop until next summer. But its always good entertainment to see the different arguments on who is #1 in 10yr. old soccer.

02 Dad would have to provide the answer but with the 01 group the FBR did break it down into 4 Tiers. I agree this is a better predictor of movement.

RoidRage wrote:No one still hasnt explained to me how FCD Premier with a 12-2-1 record is ranked below DT South with a 17-8-1 record. The strength of schedule should be about the same as they both play in the same league and FCD has beaten DT South 2 out of 3 last times in the last month. Is the reason because DT South has just played more games and thus won more games? Does it matter that South has lost 4x as many games as FCD. The same argument can be had with Bennett who has a better record and has beaten South the last 2 times they played and the SOS should also be about the same since they played the same league. What gives? Can 02 Dad give me any incite on why this is out of wack?

While I understand your thinking and would question it too but if you go back to the 8/26 FBR which was the 1st one posted for this fall season. FCD was in 1st place & DTS was 8th in rankings. That would mean SOS for FCD would be weaker but DTS would be playing a stronger SOS. So DTS even losing to FCD, Webb & Higg in PT it helped them. Then beating Dynamo who was ranked 4th as of 8/26 gave DTS a big boost. But, FCD lose to Higg who was ranked 5th hurt FCD too. Then added in DTS wins against Polaris(7th) & LP(6th) in EAL it only helped move them up the ranking.

I think SOS for the top 3 teams will always be an issue for them because at the end of the day they are playing lower ranked teams.

I do find it odd how Webb & Grubb didn't get scheduled to playing in PT this season.

deepthoughts wrote:

RoidRage wrote:No one still hasnt explained to me how FCD Premier with a 12-2-1 record is ranked below DT South with a 17-8-1 record. The strength of schedule should be about the same as they both play in the same league and FCD has beaten DT South 2 out of 3 last times in the last month. Is the reason because DT South has just played more games and thus won more games? Does it matter that South has lost 4x as many games as FCD. The same argument can be had with Bennett who has a better record and has beaten South the last 2 times they played and the SOS should also be about the same since they played the same league. What gives? Can 02 Dad give me any incite on why this is out of wack?

This brings it full circle to my original point. FBR can be counted on to differentiate effectively between competitive tiers. I am confident that team #5 would beat team #12 barring some serious fluke. But, other than the bragging rights, the system does not really do a good job gauging between #2 and #4. Either team can win on a given day - they are by definition - competitive. Soccer is NOT a sport where the slightly better team ALWAYS wins.

FBR, based on results alone, is like a rusty machete... it hacks away at the kudzu growing in the soccer jungle well enough, but you don't want to use it for radial keratotomy to improve your soccer eyesight (and therefore accurately predict head-to-head outcomes). There is no team in the 02's that is so head-and-shoulders above the rest that it will go undefeated for a year. I know that has happened in previous years, but I don't see it happening in this class.

The discussion should really focus on which teams are in tier one, tier two, tier three - and then which teams are most likely to move up or down a tier. Arguing about if and when DT South or FC Prem will make it to number one, while being measured by a limited tool, just provides entertainment rather than understanding.

I understand this, but I just want to hear how the computer software came up with the ranking when it is obviously out of Wack. I want to see the rational behind it....does playing more games give a team an advantage? Do losses even matter or only wins? I understand SOS matter a lot,but you would think head to head would apply also. Can 02 Dad post the SOS for all teams and also post the Tiers so we can see those also?

jen_nah wrote:

RoidRage wrote:No one still hasnt explained to me how FCD Premier with a 12-2-1 record is ranked below DT South with a 17-8-1 record. The strength of schedule should be about the same as they both play in the same league and FCD has beaten DT South 2 out of 3 last times in the last month. Is the reason because DT South has just played more games and thus won more games? Does it matter that South has lost 4x as many games as FCD. The same argument can be had with Bennett who has a better record and has beaten South the last 2 times they played and the SOS should also be about the same since they played the same league. What gives? Can 02 Dad give me any incite on why this is out of wack?

While I understand your thinking and would question it too but if you go back to the 8/26 FBR which was the 1st one posted for this fall season. FCD was in 1st place & DTS was 8th in rankings. That would mean SOS for FCD would be weaker but DTS would be playing a stronger SOS. So DTS even losing to FCD, Webb & Higg in PT it helped them. Then beating Dynamo who was ranked 4th as of 8/26 gave DTS a big boost. But, FCD lose to Higg who was ranked 5th hurt FCD too. Then added in DTS wins against Polaris(7th) & LP(6th) in EAL it only helped move them up the ranking.

I think SOS for the top 3 teams will always be an issue for them because at the end of the day they are playing lower ranked teams.

I do find it odd how Webb & Grubb didn't get scheduled to playing in PT this season.

They did...I believe Grubb beat Webb 1-0.

RoidRage wrote:

jen_nah wrote:

RoidRage wrote:No one still hasnt explained to me how FCD Premier with a 12-2-1 record is ranked below DT South with a 17-8-1 record. The strength of schedule should be about the same as they both play in the same league and FCD has beaten DT South 2 out of 3 last times in the last month. Is the reason because DT South has just played more games and thus won more games? Does it matter that South has lost 4x as many games as FCD. The same argument can be had with Bennett who has a better record and has beaten South the last 2 times they played and the SOS should also be about the same since they played the same league. What gives? Can 02 Dad give me any incite on why this is out of wack?

While I understand your thinking and would question it too but if you go back to the 8/26 FBR which was the 1st one posted for this fall season. FCD was in 1st place & DTS was 8th in rankings. That would mean SOS for FCD would be weaker but DTS would be playing a stronger SOS. So DTS even losing to FCD, Webb & Higg in PT it helped them. Then beating Dynamo who was ranked 4th as of 8/26 gave DTS a big boost. But, FCD lose to Higg who was ranked 5th hurt FCD too. Then added in DTS wins against Polaris(7th) & LP(6th) in EAL it only helped move them up the ranking.

I think SOS for the top 3 teams will always be an issue for them because at the end of the day they are playing lower ranked teams.

I do find it odd how Webb & Grubb didn't get scheduled to playing in PT this season.

They did...I believe Grubb beat Webb 1-0.

I stand corrected. That was an oversight when I was looking up DTS wins. I wasn't paying much attentions to FCD wins just looking for their loses.

RoidRage wrote:

jen_nah wrote:

RoidRage wrote:No one still hasnt explained to me how FCD Premier with a 12-2-1 record is ranked below DT South with a 17-8-1 record. The strength of schedule should be about the same as they both play in the same league and FCD has beaten DT South 2 out of 3 last times in the last month. Is the reason because DT South has just played more games and thus won more games? Does it matter that South has lost 4x as many games as FCD. The same argument can be had with Bennett who has a better record and has beaten South the last 2 times they played and the SOS should also be about the same since they played the same league. What gives? Can 02 Dad give me any incite on why this is out of wack?

While I understand your thinking and would question it too but if you go back to the 8/26 FBR which was the 1st one posted for this fall season. FCD was in 1st place & DTS was 8th in rankings. That would mean SOS for FCD would be weaker but DTS would be playing a stronger SOS. So DTS even losing to FCD, Webb & Higg in PT it helped them. Then beating Dynamo who was ranked 4th as of 8/26 gave DTS a big boost. But, FCD lose to Higg who was ranked 5th hurt FCD too. Then added in DTS wins against Polaris(7th) & LP(6th) in EAL it only helped move them up the ranking.

I think SOS for the top 3 teams will always be an issue for them because at the end of the day they are playing lower ranked teams.

I do find it odd how Webb & Grubb didn't get scheduled to playing in PT this season.

They did...I believe Grubb beat Webb 1-0.

Yes FCD did beat Webb in P.T

FCD 1
Webb 0
Saw the game. Both teams had opportunities. FCD probably had more chances. Webb team really needs to pass more. They still rely to much on the kick it up to forward and have them try to race to ball and cross or shoot. I really can't remember them ever getting more than 2-3 passes in a row.

Roid Rage posted this after the game on Oct.15

Aledo Soccer Dad wrote:02 Dad would have to provide the answer but with the 01 group the FBR did break it down into 4 Tiers. I agree this is a better predictor of movement.

So, the question to consider is where is the best place to put the line between Tier One / Tier Two / Tier Three. Once you get down to tier three, you usually see a lot of athletes playing long ball, kick ball so trying to draw a line becomes very murky.

I'll take a stab and say the line between Tier One and Tier Two is between #8 and #9. By FBR points, it looks like it should be between #7 and #8, but Feet showed that they could compete well with the top 3 at the recent DTFFestival tournament:

6:00 PM FC DALLAS FCD PREMIER 02 (TXN) 5 D'FEETERS SAMBA (TXN) 1
11:00 AM D'FEETERS SAMBA (TXN) 1 SOLAR RED SRSA 02G WEBB (TXN) 2
3:30 PM D'FEETERS SAMBA (TXN) 0 DALLAS TEXANS 02G (TXN) 2

I don't believe FC Renfro in #9 is quite ready to play SRSA Webb 2-1 and Higg 2-0 as Feet just did. Did Feet play a positive game or did they just bunker in an hold on for dear life? That might solve the debate on whether they are tier one competitive or really good tier two.

Where the gap is between Tier Two and Tier Three is probably in line from where soccer degrades to athletic kickball, but I have not seen most of those teams play and can't draw a decent line there. If I had to take a gut feel guess, I think that Penn White is the bottom of Tier Two and the next team down is trying to escape Tier Three. Perhaps others can debate it. I suspect that Solar Jones and Sting Parker teams belong in Tier Two given their consistent records, but both are suffering FBR'itis at this time.

Clearly, I don't think FBR should be the only tool to determine tiers without some debate. But it does give us a good starting point.

deepthoughts wrote:

Aledo Soccer Dad wrote:02 Dad would have to provide the answer but with the 01 group the FBR did break it down into 4 Tiers. I agree this is a better predictor of movement.

So, the question to consider is where is the best place to put the line between Tier One / Tier Two / Tier Three. Once you get down to tier three, you usually see a lot of athletes playing long ball, kick ball so trying to draw a line becomes very murky.

I'll take a stab and say the line between Tier One and Tier Two is between #8 and #9. By FBR points, it looks like it should be between #7 and #8, but Feet showed that they could compete well with the top 3 at the recent DTFFestival tournament:

6:00 PM FC DALLAS FCD PREMIER 02 (TXN) 5 D'FEETERS SAMBA (TXN) 1
11:00 AM D'FEETERS SAMBA (TXN) 1 SOLAR RED SRSA 02G WEBB (TXN) 2
3:30 PM D'FEETERS SAMBA (TXN) 0 DALLAS TEXANS 02G (TXN) 2

I don't believe FC Renfro in #9 is quite ready to play SRSA Webb 2-1 and Higg 2-0 as Feet just did. Did Feet play a positive game or did they just bunker in an hold on for dear life? That might solve the debate on whether they are tier one competitive or really good tier two.

Where the gap is between Tier Two and Tier Three is probably in line from where soccer degrades to athletic kickball, but I have not seen most of those teams play and can't draw a decent line there. If I had to take a gut feel guess, I think that Penn White is the bottom of Tier Two and the next team down is trying to escape Tier Three. Perhaps others can debate it. I suspect that Solar Jones and Sting Parker teams belong in Tier Two given their consistent records, but both are suffering FBR'itis at this time.

Clearly, I don't think FBR should be the only tool to determine tiers without some debate. But it does give us a good starting point.

I wouldn't say Defeeters competed good. You forget they only played a 40 minute game....as opposed to a 60 minute game during PT. That is a full 1/3 less game time. I think the scores from that tourny were artificially held down due to the 20 min halves. I believe the games would of been more lopsided in a regulation timed game.

deepthoughts wrote:

Aledo Soccer Dad wrote:02 Dad would have to provide the answer but with the 01 group the FBR did break it down into 4 Tiers. I agree this is a better predictor of movement.

So, the question to consider is where is the best place to put the line between Tier One / Tier Two / Tier Three. Once you get down to tier three, you usually see a lot of athletes playing long ball, kick ball so trying to draw a line becomes very murky.

I'll take a stab and say the line between Tier One and Tier Two is between #8 and #9. By FBR points, it looks like it should be between #7 and #8, but Feet showed that they could compete well with the top 3 at the recent DTFFestival tournament:

6:00 PM FC DALLAS FCD PREMIER 02 (TXN) 5 D'FEETERS SAMBA (TXN) 1
11:00 AM D'FEETERS SAMBA (TXN) 1 SOLAR RED SRSA 02G WEBB (TXN) 2
3:30 PM D'FEETERS SAMBA (TXN) 0 DALLAS TEXANS 02G (TXN) 2

I don't believe FC Renfro in #9 is quite ready to play SRSA Webb 2-1 and Higg 2-0 as Feet just did. Did Feet play a positive game or did they just bunker in an hold on for dear life? That might solve the debate on whether they are tier one competitive or really good tier two.

Where the gap is between Tier Two and Tier Three is probably in line from where soccer degrades to athletic kickball, but I have not seen most of those teams play and can't draw a decent line there. If I had to take a gut feel guess, I think that Penn White is the bottom of Tier Two and the next team down is trying to escape Tier Three. Perhaps others can debate it. I suspect that Solar Jones and Sting Parker teams belong in Tier Two given their consistent records, but both are suffering FBR'itis at this time.

Clearly, I don't think FBR should be the only tool to determine tiers without some debate. But it does give us a good starting point.

I fill in tier one it sould be
1.Webb
2.Higg
3.FCD
4.DT.South
5.Solor.Dynamo
6.DT.Bennett-
7.Liverpool
8.Fever-Red
9.Polaris
10.Feet

Guess Who wrote:
I fill in tier one it sould be

1.Webb
2.Higg
3.FCD
4.DT.South
5.Solor.Dynamo
6.DT.Bennett-
7.Liverpool
8.Fever-Red
9.Polaris
10.Feet

Has Polaris played any top-tier competition in recent months? I can't see putting them in tier one if they have not. I do congratulate the team for winning the Silver bracket at DTFF but I was told that they did not dominate either of the games that I had friends at. They simply competed well and were athletic, against Tier Two competitors all.

[quote="deepthoughts"]

Guess Who wrote:
I fill in tier one it sould be

1.Webb
2.Higg
3.FCD
4.DT.South
5.Solor.Dynamo
6.DT.Bennett-
7.Liverpool
8.Fever-Red
9.Polarisor FCD Rinfo
10.Feet.
Has Polaris played any top-tier competition in recent months? I can't see putting them in tier one if they have not. I do congratulate the team for winning the Silver bracket at DTFF but I was told that they did not dominate either of the games that I had friends at. They simply competed well and were athletic, against Tier Two competitors all.

I was woundering who would spot that. I just went on a gut feeling.I guess 8,9,10, can be interchangeable just like 1,2,3.

I've not seen Polaris play since we played them in January in a tournament, so I have no real good feel for the current team, but my thought would be that in making a first tier, Sting Searls should be in the top tier before Polaris. Not sure who all Renfro played this fall and too lazy to look at the moment, but I don't think Renfro should kick Searls out of the top tier either since Renfro didn't play PT. Maybe have a top tier with 11--Searls and Renfro--no Polaris. Just a thought.

soccerinsane wrote:I've not seen Polaris play since we played them in January in a tournament, so I have no real good feel for the current team, but my thought would be that in making a first tier, Sting Searls should be in the top tier before Polaris. Not sure who all Renfro played this fall and too lazy to look at the moment, but I don't think Renfro should kick Searls out of the top tier either since Renfro didn't play PT. Maybe have a top tier with 11--Searls and Renfro--no Polaris. Just a thought.

I think Sting-Serals will be good with the new additions to their team. But they are not top ten yet in my mind. They did add, but have the new additions played a game with their new team against the top 10? I know that team will be top5 by the time slect rolls around.

soccerinsane wrote:I've not seen Polaris play since we played them in January in a tournament, so I have no real good feel for the current team, but my thought would be that in making a first tier, Sting Searls should be in the top tier before Polaris. Not sure who all Renfro played this fall and too lazy to look at the moment, but I don't think Renfro should kick Searls out of the top tier either since Renfro didn't play PT. Maybe have a top tier with 11--Searls and Renfro--no Polaris. Just a thought.

Perhaps Tier One is really more like 7 or 8 teams and not 10, even though we are so pre-conditioned to hope for nice round numbers like Top 10 = Tier One. It sounds like Top 7 is clear and then Tier Two starts, with 3 or 4 good candidates trying to hop up into Tier One "consistent competitiveness" in the coming few months.

Fever Red belongs in Tier One? What's the consensus on that one?

Remind me where else FEver Red played outside of PT recently? Not sure on that one either, but didn't want to stir up trouble too much. Our team tied them I think in PT. Who won between them and Searls? But I've not kept them on the radar one way or another. With the large number of teams, I don't think there is a need for a teeny tiny tier one, but that's just my opinion. That's why I was thinking 11.

deepthoughts wrote:

soccerinsane wrote:I've not seen Polaris play since we played them in January in a tournament, so I have no real good feel for the current team, but my thought would be that in making a first tier, Sting Searls should be in the top tier before Polaris. Not sure who all Renfro played this fall and too lazy to look at the moment, but I don't think Renfro should kick Searls out of the top tier either since Renfro didn't play PT. Maybe have a top tier with 11--Searls and Renfro--no Polaris. Just a thought.

Perhaps Tier One is really more like 7 or 8 teams and not 10, even though we are so pre-conditioned to hope for nice round numbers like Top 10 = Tier One. It sounds like Top 7 is clear and then Tier Two starts, with 3 or 4 good candidates trying to hop up into Tier One "consistent competitiveness" in the coming few months.

Fever Red belongs in Tier One? What's the consensus on that one?

If the tier is 7 maybe. If 8 yes. Only being I dont recall if Liverpool has ever played Fever-Red.

deepthoughts wrote:

Guess Who wrote:
I fill in tier one it sould be

1.Webb
2.Higg
3.FCD
4.DT.South
5.Solor.Dynamo
6.DT.Bennett-
7.Liverpool
8.Fever-Red
9.Polaris
10.Feet

Has Polaris played any top-tier competition in recent months? I can't see putting them in tier one if they have not. I do congratulate the team for winning the Silver bracket at DTFF but I was told that they did not dominate either of the games that I had friends at. They simply competed well and were athletic, against Tier Two competitors all.

Polaris has tied or lost to Liverpool by 1 goal before the additional of late. Polaris with the current roster would beat Liverpool. Played DT south without additions to roster as well lost 3-0 late in game. Not sure Polaris would beat them but a close game it would be now. Played Vigil in dt festival with 6 Bennett players. Game was very even. I am sure Polaris will consider playing PT to see where they stand in spring.
Polaris is on the verge of tier 1 status. Time will tell.

Okay--looking at some of the scores and where teams played recently, my thought is either a tiny five-ish team tier one, or else make it at least 10 or 11. Otherwise, you've got teams in the top tier that did not even play other teams in the "ultra tier one" at all recently. Or maybe we should all just wait until the summer. I've clearly got too much free time at work today.

soccerinsane wrote:Remind me where else FEver Red played outside of PT recently? Not sure on that one either, but didn't want to stir up trouble too much. Our team tied them I think in PT. Who won between them and Searls? But I've not kept them on the radar one way or another. With the large number of teams, I don't think there is a need for a teeny tiny tier one, but that's just my opinion. That's why I was thinking 11.

I am not trying to start any trouble at all. Most people concur that Webb and Higg are near the top, if not the top. I'm simply asking how teams compete well with the top dogs and cross mid-field often enough and organized enough to be dangerous. One lone girl on a fast break with three greyhound defenders reeling her in does not count.

If you can't generate a few shots against a team, and you are simply parking a bus in your 18, that is not enough to be tier one, even if the score sometimes ends up 0-0. On the other hand, if Searls or Renfro can consistently put up at least 3 or 4 shots per half at the WebbHigg keepers, moving the ball smartly connecting 4 or 5 good passes, then they are, by my definition, tier one competitive, even if they don't win most of the games.

This test is what evaluates the Tier One / Tier Two border. DT South, Dynamo, Bennett, Liverpool St John (formerly DT North Rangel are clearly competitive and therefore Tier One. Where the line ends seems to be #8, not #11, unless I'm missing something.

Too bad ESPN 4 has not been invented yet for Dallas 10 year old soccer. We could debate after seeing many more games!

Seems logical to do 7 team Tiers given 20 go to D1 in lake highlands first year. Beyond those top 3 tiers it gets way too muddy anyway.

soccerinsane wrote:Remind me where else FEver Red played outside of PT recently? Not sure on that one either, but didn't want to stir up trouble too much. Our team tied them I think in PT. Who won between them and Searls? But I've not kept them on the radar one way or another. With the large number of teams, I don't think there is a need for a teeny tiny tier one, but that's just my opinion. That's why I was thinking 11.

fever red played in primetime 01 div last fall and the spring prior (spring 2010). the answer to the other question somewhere in here is yes, fever has played liverpool rangel (known at the time as dt north rangel) in the labor day tournament; fever 1-0.

deepthoughts wrote:

soccerinsane wrote:Remind me where else FEver Red played outside of PT recently? Not sure on that one either, but didn't want to stir up trouble too much. Our team tied them I think in PT. Who won between them and Searls? But I've not kept them on the radar one way or another. With the large number of teams, I don't think there is a need for a teeny tiny tier one, but that's just my opinion. That's why I was thinking 11.

I am not trying to start any trouble at all. Most people concur that Webb and Higg are near the top, if not the top. I'm simply asking how teams compete well with the top dogs and cross mid-field often enough and organized enough to be dangerous. One lone girl on a fast break with three greyhound defenders reeling her in does not count.

If you can't generate a few shots against a team, and you are simply parking a bus in your 18, that is not enough to be tier one, even if the score sometimes ends up 0-0. On the other hand, if Searls or Renfro can consistently put up at least 3 or 4 shots per half at the WebbHigg keepers, moving the ball smartly connecting 4 or 5 good passes, then they are, by my definition, tier one competitive, even if they don't win most of the games.

This test is what evaluates the Tier One / Tier Two border. DT South, Dynamo, Bennett, Liverpool St John (formerly DT North Rangel are clearly competitive and therefore Tier One. Where the line ends seems to be #8, not #11, unless I'm missing something.

Too bad ESPN 4 has not been invented yet for Dallas 10 year old soccer. We could debate after seeing many more games!

So what teams in your mind play smart soccer. Not kick ball