What real soccer is supposed to look like...

So I've been watching too many Euro Cup 2012 games and realize I may never be able to stomach sitting through another MLS game in my life. Not that I've ever bothered to watch much MLS anyway. But gazing in amazement at the speed of Germany and ball movement of Spain, it's obvious the US will probably never get to that level short of importing talent (plus the coaches) directly from other countries and paying them to wear red, white, and blue. No, this isn't so much a knock on the state of the sport in our country; it's more an observation of just how good soccer can be when it is played by stellar athletes who operate as a unit.

I've gone out of my way to sit through every game so far. I agree that several of the teams (Germany, Spain, Portugal, France) have played great soccer. The passing and possession from those teams have been impressive.

For every really impressive team that I've seen though, there's been another team that employs the "park the bus" strategy. (Greece, Ireland, Poland, England) That tactic is difficult to watch. When Greece advanced through the group stage I groaned.

If the U.S. coaches suddenly decided our best chance to win was to load 8 or 9 guys into the box and hope to get a lucky break away goal... I wouldn't watch U.S. Soccer games anymore. I don't want us to copy Italy. We're not as mature in soccer as Spain with their exceptional possession. We're not Brazil with their amazing skill. I think it's up to the U.S. to innovate. We need to develop a system so other countries want to copy us.

Euro2012 seems watered down. Germany and Spain are the pinnacle, but too many of the best players in the world are not competing, and too many of the ones that are appear to be going through the motions. Spain's first goal against France yesterday came after a retreating French midfielder said to heck with it, stopped and walked about 10 yards while Xabi Alonso ran past him into the box to finish an uncontested header. Essentially this same french side (- Nasri) was ran clean out of WC 2010, yet they've made the quarters in euro 2012...should tell you something.

The U.S. beat Italy recently - another side in the quarters of euro2012. And despite the final score we created plenty chances to get a result against Brazil in a recent friendly. We have shown flashes under Jurgen that we are capable of playing world class soccer. I don't think we are as far behind the world as most believe. For sure we are nowhere near the top 3 or 4 world powers, but then neither is anyone else. If we could figure out how to groom quality defensive players with real skill on the ball, we might take another step. Everywhere else on the pitch we're about in the middle of the pack.

Do you think the best Americans should go play in Europe with hopes of reaching the EPL where they can become world class players like Clint Dempsey and Tim Howard? Or is it better for American soccer if our best players stay home and play in the MLS and hopefully create a better domestic league where we can grow world class talent?

Infinity04Dad wrote:Do you think the best Americans should go play in Europe with hopes of reaching the EPL where they can become world class players like Clint Dempsey and Tim Howard? Or is it better for American soccer if our best players stay home and play in the MLS and hopefully create a better domestic league where we can grow world class talent?

Any top player has to go to Europe. Here are the top 10 earners...
1.) Wayne Rooney
Age – 25
Club – Manchester United
Yearly Salary – £13 million (£250,000/week)

2.) Yaya Toure
Age – 27
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £11.5 million (£220,000/week)

3.) Carlos Tevez
Age – 26
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £10.5 million (£200,000/week)

4.) John Terry
Age – 30
Club – Chelsea
Yearly Salary – £8 million (£150,000/week)

5.) Emmanuel Adebayor
Age – 26
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £7.5 million (£140,000/week)

6.) Frank Lampard
Age – 32
Club – Chelsea
Yearly Salary – £7.5 million (£140,000/week)

7.) Steven Gerrard
Age – 30
Club – Liverpool
Yearly Salary – £6.5 million (£125,000/week)

8.) Rio Ferdinand
Age – 32
Club – Manchester United
Yearly Salary – £6.5 million (£125,000/week)

9.) Kolo Toure
Age – 29
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £6.25 million (£120,000/week)

10.) Gareth Barry
Age – 29
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £6.25 million (£120,000/week)

Compare this to the top MLS salaries...
Thierry Henry, who makes a league-high salary of $5.6 million.
Rafael Marquez will earn $4.6 million this year.
Beckham dropped to third place with just $4 million.
Two more Galaxy players are featured in the top five: Irish forward Robbie Keane ($3.4 million) and club captain Landon Donovan, who, at $2.4 million per year, shares the fifth spot with Toronto FC's Torsten Frings.

You've still missing the point of everything. We have a youth system in place where the clubs (and parents to an extent) care about winning to improve their rankings and standings. Players are still being told, sorry your too short/not fast enough, maybe they are right now but these players might be the best players come U16/17 but no one wants to develop them. Until the youth system changes and the money (why should our best players pay for ODP?) and the winning is not the most important part of the youth coaches philosophies, only then will the US be able to develop soccer players instead of fast atheletes who play soccer

I find it ironic that so many on the forums put down ODP as on its way out, outdated, done because of academy but...,. When my son , a 95 ODP player first made the program back at U12, at the first parent meeting all were told that size, speed etc were not the determining factors. They were looking for potential. Some kids they acknowledged were BSF, others big and maybe still behind on coordination and others small but talented and behind on the physical maturity, Looking around at the three teams what I saw reflected that. My own son being BSF one year out of rec was put on the 3rd squad, the developmental squad. They also have needs based financial aid.

The point is that the ODP program is much closer in its core mission to what most feel is the direction soccer needs to go than the academies, which are supposed to be the new saviors of US soccer. The academies are geographjcally limited and the travel expenses eliminate probably 50% to 70% of the population. Despite their claim to development is is widely known that the 15 thru 26 on the rosters rarely play in games. Development over winning? This I can see maybe at the U17-18 but below that even they are writing off the less effective game players.Is pre-academy going to be more of the same? 26 player rosters with the same 14 playing all the time? Programs that want to develope potential and allow all to play offering needs based, not talent based, financial support is what is needed.

Triumph FC wrote:You've still missing the point of everything. We have a youth system in place where the clubs (and parents to an extent) care about winning to improve their rankings and standings. Players are still being told, sorry your too short/not fast enough, maybe they are right now but these players might be the best players come U16/17 but no one wants to develop them. Until the youth system changes and the money (why should our best players pay for ODP?) and the winning is not the most important part of the youth coaches philosophies, only then will the US be able to develop soccer players instead of fast atheletes who play soccer

ODP costs are minimal compared to the costs of club soccer. The top boys players at most MLS academies don't have to pay (as much as before). Still, if you're going there, you have to get to root cause of why clubs care so much about winning at the early ages. The answer is money. Not from selling developed players, but from selling contracts to paying parents. It's hard to sell contracts based on a mythical "development" that most can't quantify in any real terms. Much easier to sell "my teams win", and "we're so good I'll get them all in college." That model has its pluses and minuses, and it's unlikely to change anytime soon (or even clear that it should).

I don't think it's stopping us on the world stage though. I think our problems are more about player selection and not retaining & developing all the talent that does come through the massive rec,club and elite ranks from uLittle on up. How many players in nfl, nba or mlb played soccer at some point in their youth?

I'll have to respectfully disagree on the importance of athleticism. Athleticism matters at the world class level far more than a lot of old guard American soccer seem willing to admit. Thus you see us fielding national teams with helplessly slow back lines, incapable of keeping up with attacking players from even the guatemala's of the world. I keep hearing all this talk about how u.s. soccer puts out stud athletes who don't have the skills, but I never see us competing on pace or athleticism. Who is supposed to be a great American athlete that plays soccer? Even Zidane had once a generation agility, balance and ability to change direction at speed. American elitists have to admit soccer is a physical sport as much as it is a skill sport.

It looks to me the (early developing) elite athletes with minimal skill are used up for their athleticism while they can win games on youth levels. Then they quit the sport and continue on with a higher profile American sport as they get older and their soccer skills gap widens. Meanwhile the mediocre athletes pay their way through, keep getting skilled, get the college ride as attrition depletes the talent pool, and these players end up forming the ranks of the highest level American player at U20 and above. The very small handful that are truly talented technically and athletically high tail it out of dodge to get trained in europe, but unless they left early enough they too are behind their international peers and take 3 to 5 years to catch up.

It's not the short or slow players being failed in our system. It's the fast/athletic ones. No one forces them to do anything more than rely on their strength, speed or quickness as long as they're helping win the all important youth games. By 14, it's too late for them in American soccer because our system has a hard time developing even skillful players to the next level.

Jurgen seems willing to seek out talent where old guard American coaches haven't. The difference between a decent side and a championship side is those two or three "special" players. Hopefully retention and player development of these type players will improve. Even with all our problems, we're still right there in the pack with other nations that have a much stronger soccer culture than we do.

my2cents wrote:I find it ironic that so many on the forums put down ODP as on its way out, outdated, done because of academy but...,. When my son , a 95 ODP player first made the program back at U12, at the first parent meeting all were told that size, speed etc were not the determining factors. They were looking for potential. Some kids they acknowledged were BSF, others big and maybe still behind on coordination and others small but talented and behind on the physical maturity, Looking around at the three teams what I saw reflected that. My own son being BSF one year out of rec was put on the 3rd squad, the developmental squad. They also have needs based financial aid.

The point is that the ODP program is much closer in its core mission to what most feel is the direction soccer needs to go than the academies, which are supposed to be the new saviors of US soccer. The academies are geographjcally limited and the travel expenses eliminate probably 50% to 70% of the population. Despite their claim to development is is widely known that the 15 thru 26 on the rosters rarely play in games. Development over winning? This I can see maybe at the U17-18 but below that even they are writing off the less effective game players.Is pre-academy going to be more of the same? 26 player rosters with the same 14 playing all the time? Programs that want to develope potential and allow all to play offering needs based, not talent based, financial support is what is needed.

I for one was not putting ODP down. I dont care how much it costs whether minimal or not. This is a program that is suppose to indentity the TOP talent not the top talent that can pay. It should be FREE and the cost cover by North Texas. If we really want the best players to develop dont exclude anyone. No one pays anywhere in the world when invited to any pro academy. I can just see Santos picking up players from local leagues/street/beach in Brazil and saying by the way you owe us 800 for training you! Its crazy so lets not kid ourselves we uncover the best talent North Texas has by our ODP program. Make it FREE!

Triumph FC wrote:

my2cents wrote:I find it ironic that so many on the forums put down ODP as on its way out, outdated, done because of academy but...,. When my son , a 95 ODP player first made the program back at U12, at the first parent meeting all were told that size, speed etc were not the determining factors. They were looking for potential. Some kids they acknowledged were BSF, others big and maybe still behind on coordination and others small but talented and behind on the physical maturity, Looking around at the three teams what I saw reflected that. My own son being BSF one year out of rec was put on the 3rd squad, the developmental squad. They also have needs based financial aid.

The point is that the ODP program is much closer in its core mission to what most feel is the direction soccer needs to go than the academies, which are supposed to be the new saviors of US soccer. The academies are geographjcally limited and the travel expenses eliminate probably 50% to 70% of the population. Despite their claim to development is is widely known that the 15 thru 26 on the rosters rarely play in games. Development over winning? This I can see maybe at the U17-18 but below that even they are writing off the less effective game players.Is pre-academy going to be more of the same? 26 player rosters with the same 14 playing all the time? Programs that want to develope potential and allow all to play offering needs based, not talent based, financial support is what is needed.

I for one was not putting ODP down. I dont care how much it costs whether minimal or not. This is a program that is suppose to indentity the TOP talent not the top talent that can pay. It should be FREE and the cost cover by North Texas. If we really want the best players to develop dont exclude anyone. No one pays anywhere in the world when invited to any pro academy. I can just see Santos picking up players from local leagues/street/beach in Brazil and saying by the way you owe us 800 for training you! Its crazy so lets not kid ourselves we uncover the best talent North Texas has by our ODP program. Make it FREE!

I agree.

Since reading your note I’ve been thinking about what ODP was and what it has become. My mind keeps comparing it to Notre Dame Football. It used to be that playing for football for Notre Dame meant that you were one of the best football players in the country. If Notre Dame came to your house and said “We’re Notre Dame and we want you to play for us.”, that pretty much concluded the recruitment process. BUT… Other football programs caught up. Other programs found better ways to compete. Notre Dame didn’t try to innovate like they should and fooled themselves into thinking the mystique of Notre Dame would always be enough. Notre Dame football isn’t what it used to be.

ODP Soccer was, at one point, like Notre Dame in this area. If you were on the ODP team around here, you were one of the area’s best players without a doubt.

At this point ODP though is basically just another select club. ODP is struggling right now because it's trying to directly compete with the clubs and the clubs have created better systems. The aura of ODP has diminished and the big clubs have more to offer than ODP.

ODP tries to overcome those shortcomings (No word-of-mouth, no advertising) by being a little cheaper but that isn’t working well enough. Lots of families in NTX don't even know about ODP.

If ODP leadership doesn’t want their system to disappear then the old operating system needs to be updated. Being a little cheaper isn't enough. NTX needs to make ODP free and then they need everyone in North Texas to KNOW it's free. Once everyone knows it's free, a buzz will be restored around the ODP program. Once everyone knows it's free, and the tryout fields are stuffed with new players trying to get in... then the ODP leadership can be ultra-selective. IF ODP can be ultra-selective that will help restore that old mystique.

bigtex75081 wrote:

Triumph FC wrote:

my2cents wrote:I find it ironic that so many on the forums put down ODP as on its way out, outdated, done because of academy but...,. When my son , a 95 ODP player first made the program back at U12, at the first parent meeting all were told that size, speed etc were not the determining factors. They were looking for potential. Some kids they acknowledged were BSF, others big and maybe still behind on coordination and others small but talented and behind on the physical maturity, Looking around at the three teams what I saw reflected that. My own son being BSF one year out of rec was put on the 3rd squad, the developmental squad. They also have needs based financial aid.

The point is that the ODP program is much closer in its core mission to what most feel is the direction soccer needs to go than the academies, which are supposed to be the new saviors of US soccer. The academies are geographjcally limited and the travel expenses eliminate probably 50% to 70% of the population. Despite their claim to development is is widely known that the 15 thru 26 on the rosters rarely play in games. Development over winning? This I can see maybe at the U17-18 but below that even they are writing off the less effective game players.Is pre-academy going to be more of the same? 26 player rosters with the same 14 playing all the time? Programs that want to develope potential and allow all to play offering needs based, not talent based, financial support is what is needed.

I for one was not putting ODP down. I dont care how much it costs whether minimal or not. This is a program that is suppose to indentity the TOP talent not the top talent that can pay. It should be FREE and the cost cover by North Texas. If we really want the best players to develop dont exclude anyone. No one pays anywhere in the world when invited to any pro academy. I can just see Santos picking up players from local leagues/street/beach in Brazil and saying by the way you owe us 800 for training you! Its crazy so lets not kid ourselves we uncover the best talent North Texas has by our ODP program. Make it FREE!

I agree.

Since reading your note I’ve been thinking about what ODP was and what it has become. My mind keeps comparing it to Notre Dame Football. It used to be that playing for football for Notre Dame meant that you were one of the best football players in the country. If Notre Dame came to your house and said “We’re Notre Dame and we want you to play for us.”, that pretty much concluded the recruitment process. BUT… Other football programs caught up. Other programs found better ways to compete. Notre Dame didn’t try to innovate like they should and fooled themselves into thinking the mystique of Notre Dame would always be enough. Notre Dame football isn’t what it used to be.

ODP Soccer was, at one point, like Notre Dame in this area. If you were on the ODP team around here, you were one of the area’s best players without a doubt.

At this point ODP though is basically just another select club. ODP is struggling right now because it's trying to directly compete with the clubs and the clubs have created better systems. The aura of ODP has diminished and the big clubs have more to offer than ODP.

ODP tries to overcome those shortcomings (No word-of-mouth, no advertising) by being a little cheaper but that isn’t working well enough. Lots of families in NTX don't even know about ODP.

If ODP leadership doesn’t want their system to disappear then the old operating system needs to be updated. Being a little cheaper isn't enough. NTX needs to make ODP free and then they need everyone in North Texas to KNOW it's free. Once everyone knows it's free, a buzz will be restored around the ODP program. Once everyone knows it's free, and the tryout fields are stuffed with new players trying to get in... then the ODP leadership can be ultra-selective. IF ODP can be ultra-selective that will help restore that old mystique.

Great post

grassyknoll wrote:

bigtex75081 wrote:

Triumph FC wrote:

my2cents wrote:I find it ironic that so many on the forums put down ODP as on its way out, outdated, done because of academy but...,. When my son , a 95 ODP player first made the program back at U12, at the first parent meeting all were told that size, speed etc were not the determining factors. They were looking for potential. Some kids they acknowledged were BSF, others big and maybe still behind on coordination and others small but talented and behind on the physical maturity, Looking around at the three teams what I saw reflected that. My own son being BSF one year out of rec was put on the 3rd squad, the developmental squad. They also have needs based financial aid.

The point is that the ODP program is much closer in its core mission to what most feel is the direction soccer needs to go than the academies, which are supposed to be the new saviors of US soccer. The academies are geographjcally limited and the travel expenses eliminate probably 50% to 70% of the population. Despite their claim to development is is widely known that the 15 thru 26 on the rosters rarely play in games. Development over winning? This I can see maybe at the U17-18 but below that even they are writing off the less effective game players.Is pre-academy going to be more of the same? 26 player rosters with the same 14 playing all the time? Programs that want to develope potential and allow all to play offering needs based, not talent based, financial support is what is needed.

I for one was not putting ODP down. I dont care how much it costs whether minimal or not. This is a program that is suppose to indentity the TOP talent not the top talent that can pay. It should be FREE and the cost cover by North Texas. If we really want the best players to develop dont exclude anyone. No one pays anywhere in the world when invited to any pro academy. I can just see Santos picking up players from local leagues/street/beach in Brazil and saying by the way you owe us 800 for training you! Its crazy so lets not kid ourselves we uncover the best talent North Texas has by our ODP program. Make it FREE!

I agree.

Since reading your note I’ve been thinking about what ODP was and what it has become. My mind keeps comparing it to Notre Dame Football. It used to be that playing for football for Notre Dame meant that you were one of the best football players in the country. If Notre Dame came to your house and said “We’re Notre Dame and we want you to play for us.”, that pretty much concluded the recruitment process. BUT… Other football programs caught up. Other programs found better ways to compete. Notre Dame didn’t try to innovate like they should and fooled themselves into thinking the mystique of Notre Dame would always be enough. Notre Dame football isn’t what it used to be.

ODP Soccer was, at one point, like Notre Dame in this area. If you were on the ODP team around here, you were one of the area’s best players without a doubt.

At this point ODP though is basically just another select club. ODP is struggling right now because it's trying to directly compete with the clubs and the clubs have created better systems. The aura of ODP has diminished and the big clubs have more to offer than ODP.

ODP tries to overcome those shortcomings (No word-of-mouth, no advertising) by being a little cheaper but that isn’t working well enough. Lots of families in NTX don't even know about ODP.

If ODP leadership doesn’t want their system to disappear then the old operating system needs to be updated. Being a little cheaper isn't enough. NTX needs to make ODP free and then they need everyone in North Texas to KNOW it's free. Once everyone knows it's free, a buzz will be restored around the ODP program. Once everyone knows it's free, and the tryout fields are stuffed with new players trying to get in... then the ODP leadership can be ultra-selective. IF ODP can be ultra-selective that will help restore that old mystique.

Great post

LOL, nothing is ever "free" somebody has to pay for it. would YOU be willing to pay 200 more per year so that odp could be free for other kids? probably not, i wouldn't. its easy to talk about "free" when its someone elses money......

silentparent wrote:

grassyknoll wrote:

bigtex75081 wrote:

Triumph FC wrote:

my2cents wrote:I find it ironic that so many on the forums put down ODP as on its way out, outdated, done because of academy but...,. When my son , a 95 ODP player first made the program back at U12, at the first parent meeting all were told that size, speed etc were not the determining factors. They were looking for potential. Some kids they acknowledged were BSF, others big and maybe still behind on coordination and others small but talented and behind on the physical maturity, Looking around at the three teams what I saw reflected that. My own son being BSF one year out of rec was put on the 3rd squad, the developmental squad. They also have needs based financial aid.

The point is that the ODP program is much closer in its core mission to what most feel is the direction soccer needs to go than the academies, which are supposed to be the new saviors of US soccer. The academies are geographjcally limited and the travel expenses eliminate probably 50% to 70% of the population. Despite their claim to development is is widely known that the 15 thru 26 on the rosters rarely play in games. Development over winning? This I can see maybe at the U17-18 but below that even they are writing off the less effective game players.Is pre-academy going to be more of the same? 26 player rosters with the same 14 playing all the time? Programs that want to develope potential and allow all to play offering needs based, not talent based, financial support is what is needed.

I for one was not putting ODP down. I dont care how much it costs whether minimal or not. This is a program that is suppose to indentity the TOP talent not the top talent that can pay. It should be FREE and the cost cover by North Texas. If we really want the best players to develop dont exclude anyone. No one pays anywhere in the world when invited to any pro academy. I can just see Santos picking up players from local leagues/street/beach in Brazil and saying by the way you owe us 800 for training you! Its crazy so lets not kid ourselves we uncover the best talent North Texas has by our ODP program. Make it FREE!

I agree.

Since reading your note I’ve been thinking about what ODP was and what it has become. My mind keeps comparing it to Notre Dame Football. It used to be that playing football for Notre Dame meant that you were one of the best football players in the country. If Notre Dame came to your house and said “We’re Notre Dame and we want you to play for us.”, that pretty much concluded the recruitment process. BUT… Other football programs caught up. Other programs found better ways to compete. Notre Dame didn’t try to innovate like they should and fooled themselves into thinking the mystique of Notre Dame would always be enough. Notre Dame football isn’t what it used to be.

ODP Soccer was, at one point, like Notre Dame in this area. If you were on the ODP team around here, you were one of the area’s best players without a doubt.

At this point ODP though is basically just another select club. ODP is struggling right now because it's trying to directly compete with the clubs and the clubs have created better systems. The aura of ODP has diminished and the big clubs have more to offer than ODP.

ODP tries to overcome those shortcomings (No word-of-mouth, no advertising) by being a little cheaper but that isn’t working well enough. Lots of families in NTX don't even know about ODP.

If ODP leadership doesn’t want their system to disappear then the old operating system needs to be updated. Being a little cheaper isn't enough. NTX needs to make ODP free and then they need everyone in North Texas to KNOW it's free. Once everyone knows it's free, a buzz will be restored around the ODP program. Once everyone knows it's free, and the tryout fields are stuffed with new players trying to get in... then the ODP leadership can be ultra-selective. IF ODP can be ultra-selective that will help restore that old mystique.

Great post

LOL, nothing is ever "free" somebody has to pay for it. would YOU be willing to pay 200 more per year so that odp could be free for other kids? probably not, i wouldn't. its easy to talk about "free" when its someone elses money......

I understand what you're saying but aren't the ODP coaches already compensated by NTX? (I'm pretty sure they are.) So that expense is already budgeted.

ODP is an NTSSA program. NTSSA collects dues from ALL the associations, not just Select. The associations collect dues from EVERYONE (Select, Rec, Indoor, etc) included in the NTSSA umbrella. How much more would it be per family if everyone across NTX is throwing in and one of the large expenses (coaches' salaries) is already covered? Less than $1 in your association's registration fee to save this program?

Triumph, my post was not to imply that you were putting it down just that many do.

Love the free idea but I think the math is a bit off. I believe there are about 120,000 registrations per year in NTX. The ODP camps, trips and international tours cost $1000 each. At a$1.00 fee per player that would only cover 1 trip for 120 players so you probably need at least $3.00 per player registered in NTX to make it all free.

I'm wondering how many kids playing soccer practice 4-5hrs per week on their skills in addition to club/rec/ODP scheduled Trainings. Skill very rarely is attained in an hour per week. I wouldn't think many programs would develop "stars" or top talent with out the individual time taken to better themselves.

LOL, nothing is ever "free" somebody has to pay for it. would YOU be willing to pay 200 more per year so that odp could be free for other kids? probably not, i wouldn't. its easy to talk about "free" when its someone elses money......[/quote]

Your laughing and yet it is in all the other countries. We here seem to think it should cost money. As one poster pointed out they make huge amonuts from each soccer association registered with them. That and tournaments they run, every tournament they sanction its a money making machine! Yet we are asking (supposedly) our best players to hand over more money to cover the costs. Find out how many A license coaches there are in the program. Not all A license coaches are the best but have gone through more courses than a D license! Sure its easy to talk about it being free but lets not say its THE best program when we are excluding the ones that cant pay. When we get ALL the best players in the program, trained by the best coaches North Texas has to offer and the players are not paying a cent then we might get somewhere

bigtex75081 wrote:

Infinity04Dad wrote:Do you think the best Americans should go play in Europe with hopes of reaching the EPL where they can become world class players like Clint Dempsey and Tim Howard? Or is it better for American soccer if our best players stay home and play in the MLS and hopefully create a better domestic league where we can grow world class talent?

Any top player has to go to Europe. Here are the top 10 earners...
1.) Wayne Rooney
Age – 25
Club – Manchester United
Yearly Salary – £13 million (£250,000/week)

2.) Yaya Toure
Age – 27
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £11.5 million (£220,000/week)

3.) Carlos Tevez
Age – 26
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £10.5 million (£200,000/week)

4.) John Terry
Age – 30
Club – Chelsea
Yearly Salary – £8 million (£150,000/week)

5.) Emmanuel Adebayor
Age – 26
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £7.5 million (£140,000/week)

6.) Frank Lampard
Age – 32
Club – Chelsea
Yearly Salary – £7.5 million (£140,000/week)

7.) Steven Gerrard
Age – 30
Club – Liverpool
Yearly Salary – £6.5 million (£125,000/week)

8.) Rio Ferdinand
Age – 32
Club – Manchester United
Yearly Salary – £6.5 million (£125,000/week)

9.) Kolo Toure
Age – 29
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £6.25 million (£120,000/week)

10.) Gareth Barry
Age – 29
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £6.25 million (£120,000/week)

Compare this to the top MLS salaries...
Thierry Henry, who makes a league-high salary of $5.6 million.
Rafael Marquez will earn $4.6 million this year.
Beckham dropped to third place with just $4 million.
Two more Galaxy players are featured in the top five: Irish forward Robbie Keane ($3.4 million) and club captain Landon Donovan, who, at $2.4 million per year, shares the fifth spot with Toronto FC's Torsten Frings.

Why do they have to go to Europe? Here are some statistics that I have calculated:

Spain (#1)

Currently has 7 players on Barca, 5 players on Real Madrid, 19 players play on a Spanish Club, and 4 players that play out of country.

This means that 30% of their players play together ALL the time on Barca, 21% play together all the time on Real Madrid, 83% of their players home based, and only 17% of their players out of country.

Germany (#3)

Currently has 7 players on Bayern Munich, 16 players based in Germany, and 4 players out of country.

This means 30% of their players play together all the time!

Italy (#12)

Currently has 8 players on Juventus, 4 on Milan, 20 players on an Italian Club, and 3 out of country players.

This means that 35% of the team plays together all the time on Juventus, 17% of their players play together on Milan, 87% of their players on an Italian Club, and 13% of their players out of the country.

Portugal (#10)

Currently has 5 players on Porto, 5 players that play on a club in Portugal, and 13 players that play out of country (however 3 of these 3 play on Real Madrid and 2 play for Valencia).

This means that 22% of their team play together all the time on Porto, 43% of their team play for a club in Portugal, and 57% play out of country (However 23% of this percentage play on Real Madrid, and 15% play on Valencia).

England (#6)

Currently has 6 players on Liverpool, 3 on Manchester United, 3 on Manchester City, and all 23 players are on English Clubs!

That means 26% play all the time together on Liverpool and a total of 26% play together on either Manchester United or Manchester City all time together!

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Now, lets look at the United States National Team.

The team currently has 2 players on Real Salt Lake, 5 players that play for a Club in the US, and 18 player that play out of country on 16 DIFFERENT CLUBS WORLD WIDE!

That means that 9% of our team plays together all the time, 22% play here in the states, and 78% of the players play out of the country (although 9% play for a club in Mexico, and 9% play for a club in Scotland)

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What can we conclude from all of this? Almost every top nation in the world has a core group of players that play together all the time! Is it any wonder that when Spain come together to play and over 50% of their team basically already knows how to play with each other, that they dominate just about every team they come across?? The only exceptions to this are Brazil and Holland... they have somehow found a way to overcome this feat ( I assume because Holland has many top Youth Programs in the world, and Brazilians play soccer almost non stop it seems, so both countries players are developed well enough to play with anyone).

We can also see, that most of these teams are home based! Which means that the players play against one another a lot, meaning they learn the tendencies of the other national players when they play against them, and these players can all be called in to National Duty very readily meaning less travel time and more energy to train (Even Brazil and Holland have close to 50% of their players home based).

So, looking at the USA... we don't even have a solid group of players that play here in the US together, or that play against one another. Is it any surprise that the US is so inconsistent on the field? I mean, how does a team go from beating Spain 2-0 (Confed. Cup) to losing to Panama (Gold Cup)? Not to mention when our players are called in for National Duty a staggering 78% of them have to travel!

National Teams don't get to train with one another very often... so time spent training at the same club is very valuable!

An interesting way to test this would be for Klinsmann to select a squad comprised of players from certain MLS teams such as LA Galaxy that are good enough to play National Soccer along with some over seas players like Howard, Bocanegra, Bradley, and Dempsey and see what would happen. Maybe select 5 players from LA Galaxy, 5 from FC Dallas, and another 5 from another club... or something like that along with some big name guys like the ones mentioned.
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I would argue, that the US needs to put an emphasis on keeping players here in the US. How can we do this?

Why not offer OUR players (as in USA players) more money! Instead of spending big bucks to get Becham to play in LA why don't they offer Dempsey some $$$ to get him here? Then we have Donovan and Dempsey playing together all the time! Instead of New York spending money to get T. Henrey here why don't they split that money up and get M. Bradley and Altidore here?

P.S. Sorry for the long post!

CoachKyle101 wrote:

bigtex75081 wrote:

Infinity04Dad wrote:Do you think the best Americans should go play in Europe with hopes of reaching the EPL where they can become world class players like Clint Dempsey and Tim Howard? Or is it better for American soccer if our best players stay home and play in the MLS and hopefully create a better domestic league where we can grow world class talent?

Any top player has to go to Europe. Here are the top 10 earners...
1.) Wayne Rooney
Age – 25
Club – Manchester United
Yearly Salary – £13 million (£250,000/week)

2.) Yaya Toure
Age – 27
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £11.5 million (£220,000/week)

3.) Carlos Tevez
Age – 26
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £10.5 million (£200,000/week)

4.) John Terry
Age – 30
Club – Chelsea
Yearly Salary – £8 million (£150,000/week)

5.) Emmanuel Adebayor
Age – 26
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £7.5 million (£140,000/week)

6.) Frank Lampard
Age – 32
Club – Chelsea
Yearly Salary – £7.5 million (£140,000/week)

7.) Steven Gerrard
Age – 30
Club – Liverpool
Yearly Salary – £6.5 million (£125,000/week)

8.) Rio Ferdinand
Age – 32
Club – Manchester United
Yearly Salary – £6.5 million (£125,000/week)

9.) Kolo Toure
Age – 29
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £6.25 million (£120,000/week)

10.) Gareth Barry
Age – 29
Club – Manchester City
Yearly Salary – £6.25 million (£120,000/week)

Compare this to the top MLS salaries...
Thierry Henry, who makes a league-high salary of $5.6 million.
Rafael Marquez will earn $4.6 million this year.
Beckham dropped to third place with just $4 million.
Two more Galaxy players are featured in the top five: Irish forward Robbie Keane ($3.4 million) and club captain Landon Donovan, who, at $2.4 million per year, shares the fifth spot with Toronto FC's Torsten Frings.

Why do they have to go to Europe? Here are some statistics that I have calculated:

Spain (#1)

Currently has 7 players on Barca, 5 players on Real Madrid, 19 players play on a Spanish Club, and 4 players that play out of country.

This means that 30% of their players play together ALL the time on Barca, 21% play together all the time on Real Madrid, 83% of their players home based, and only 17% of their players out of country.

Germany (#3)

Currently has 7 players on Bayern Munich, 16 players based in Germany, and 4 players out of country.

This means 30% of their players play together all the time!

Italy (#12)

Currently has 8 players on Juventus, 4 on Milan, 20 players on an Italian Club, and 3 out of country players.

This means that 35% of the team plays together all the time on Juventus, 17% of their players play together on Milan, 87% of their players on an Italian Club, and 13% of their players out of the country.

Portugal (#10)

Currently has 5 players on Porto, 5 players that play on a club in Portugal, and 13 players that play out of country (however 3 of these 3 play on Real Madrid and 2 play for Valencia).

This means that 22% of their team play together all the time on Porto, 43% of their team play for a club in Portugal, and 57% play out of country (However 23% of this percentage play on Real Madrid, and 15% play on Valencia).

England (#6)

Currently has 6 players on Liverpool, 3 on Manchester United, 3 on Manchester City, and all 23 players are on English Clubs!

That means 26% play all the time together on Liverpool and a total of 26% play together on either Manchester United or Manchester City all time together!

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Now, lets look at the United States National Team.

The team currently has 2 players on Real Salt Lake, 5 players that play for a Club in the US, and 18 player that play out of country on 16 DIFFERENT CLUBS WORLD WIDE!

That means that 9% of our team plays together all the time, 22% play here in the states, and 78% of the players play out of the country (although 9% play for a club in Mexico, and 9% play for a club in Scotland)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What can we conclude from all of this? Almost every top nation in the world has a core group of players that play together all the time! Is it any wonder that when Spain come together to play and over 50% of their team basically already knows how to play with each other, that they dominate just about every team they come across?? The only exceptions to this are Brazil and Holland... they have somehow found a way to overcome this feat ( I assume because Holland has many top Youth Programs in the world, and Brazilians play soccer almost non stop it seems, so both countries players are developed well enough to play with anyone).

We can also see, that most of these teams are home based! Which means that the players play against one another a lot, meaning they learn the tendencies of the other national players when they play against them, and these players can all be called in to National Duty very readily meaning less travel time and more energy to train (Even Brazil and Holland have close to 50% of their players home based).

So, looking at the USA... we don't even have a solid group of players that play here in the US together, or that play against one another. Is it any surprise that the US is so inconsistent on the field? I mean, how does a team go from beating Spain 2-0 (Confed. Cup) to losing to Panama (Gold Cup)? Not to mention when our players are called in for National Duty a staggering 78% of them have to travel!

National Teams don't get to train with one another very often... so time spent training at the same club is very valuable!

An interesting way to test this would be for Klinsmann to select a squad comprised of players from certain MLS teams such as LA Galaxy that are good enough to play National Soccer along with some over seas players like Howard, Bocanegra, Bradley, and Dempsey and see what would happen. Maybe select 5 players from LA Galaxy, 5 from FC Dallas, and another 5 from another club... or something like that along with some big name guys like the ones mentioned.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would argue, that the US needs to put an emphasis on keeping players here in the US. How can we do this?

Why not offer OUR players (as in USA players) more money! Instead of spending big bucks to get Becham to play in LA why don't they offer Dempsey some $$$ to get him here? Then we have Donovan and Dempsey playing together all the time! Instead of New York spending money to get T. Henrey here why don't they split that money up and get M. Bradley and Altidore here?

P.S. Sorry for the long post!

GREAT POST! I definitely agree. (And I would much rather see Dempsey, Bradley and Altidore playing here than Henry, Marquez, Beckham or Keane.)

There is definitely something to be said for playing together, but there is a big difference between playing together on a team like Barca or Bayern and playing together on an MLS team. At this point, I've got to think American players are better off competing against the world's best in Europe rather than playing together on teams in the U.S. that wouldn't be able to qualify for the top European leagues and never face that level of competition.

Sent to the Stands wrote:There is definitely something to be said for playing together, but there is a big difference between playing together on a team like Barca or Bayern and playing together on an MLS team. At this point, I've got to think American players are better off competing against the world's best in Europe rather than playing together on teams in the U.S. that wouldn't be able to qualify for the top European leagues and never face that level of competition.

The problem is a majority of the U.S. players not playing in Europe, take the Premier League for example, are not good enough quality to play for any of these clubs. Why would they take a U.S. player, when the Championship is loaded with similar to better players. The MLS is equivelent to the Championship in England. I remember when Altidore did his stint in the Premier League.. He looked completely out of place. Same for Gooch, who made Titus Bramble look like a World Class Defender for the Geordies..
These are the facts, and until as the poster Triumph alluded to, the US starts putting more emphasis on players in this country who can't afford to be put on club teams, to be able to play for them without the astronomical costs, it's going to continue to hamper the growth of soccer on a worldwide level here. We are missing out on too many good youth players because of club fees, so they end up playing another sport, school based, or get out all together..

Sent to the Stands wrote:There is definitely something to be said for playing together, but there is a big difference between playing together on a team like Barca or Bayern and playing together on an MLS team. At this point, I've got to think American players are better off competing against the world's best in Europe rather than playing together on teams in the U.S. that wouldn't be able to qualify for the top European leagues and never face that level of competition.

Is it really though? Is it better for them to play against that competition on their own?

1990 USA World Cup Roster

19 Domestic players, 3 Out of Country players.

14% of which all played on the same team... this year we shocked the World and qualified for the World Cup when we weren't supposed to. They never played against Barca level competition.

Let's look at the winners that year:

West Germany 1990

17 Domestic, 5 out of country players.

6 played on Bayern Munich, 4 on Koln, and on out of country clubs they had 3 on Internazionale and 2 on Roma.

That's 27% on Bayern, 12% on Koln, 14% on Internazionale, and 9% on Roma... you're essentially combining just 4 groups as opposed to the 18 groups that the US combines now.

Let's look at Turkey 2002... they finished 3rd place:

14 Domestic Players, 9 Out of Country Players

6 played on Galatasaray, and 4 on Fenerbahce... that's not the level of Bayern or Baca play at... yet their team was able to finish 3rd at the World Cup.

What about Brazil 2002?

13 Domestic Players, 10 Out of Country players... over 50% of the team didn't play against Barca level competition. Two major groups with 3 from Corinthians and 3 from Sao Paulo.

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I think what we need to concentrate on is better coaching for our youth and developing them, and then getting them to stay here! The years where we did the best in the World Cup we had a good mix of Domestic Players and Out of Country players. Now that we select players from across the globe our soccer hasn't been consistent at all... We might be better technically, but when we field a team we have almost no players that play together on a regular basis.

I don't think facing the best competition in the world is really that big of a determining factor in how well the National Team will play when they come together. Does it help? Sure it helps the individual players, but does it really help the team? I would argue it only helps the National Team if groups of those players play together against that level of competition... otherwise it's kind of pointless in my opinion.

I mean I could be completely wrong here... it's just a thought.