Refs or lack of

bwgophers wrote:

silentparent wrote:

10sDad wrote:A lot of chatter about how we should complain, follow the process, etc.  Trouble is, it won't right the wrong, nor will it even make a difference.

Years ago, back in rec, there was a ref that had an issue with our coach at the time.  He would intentionally call things against our team (and not against the others), to the point that our girls were coming off the field bloody - just to try to get our coach riled up.  We complained.  NTX told us we were just sore losers (even though we won the game, and every other game that season).  After the second game, we complained again...nothing.  After the THIRD game, we complained again.  The assessor came out to FOURTH game, and they decided that in their infinite wisdom that the referee was a good referee - but that he should not ref any more of OUR games even though there was only one game remaining in the season and he was not scheduled to work it.  How's that for sweeping it under the rug?  Again...no accountability whatsoever.

The "process" is purposely inadequate, time consuming and laborious to make it impossible to actually affect change from the parent/team perspective.  And even if you dedicate your self to seeking change, none will happen, and your kid's safety will be put in danger week in and week out.  Soccer is infinitely much more fun to watch and play when you have quality refereeing.

Perhaps my personal problem is that I have seen quality refereeing, so I know it exists.  Which makes it harder for me to accept the incompetent ones.

Well part of the problem is that they see parents and teams as adversaries that are attacking them and their system, instead of as customers. They reflexively dismiss these claims as sore losers, dumb parents, whining coaches etc. many have been their positions too long and view it as personal fiefdom. The process is purposefully designed to be laborious and punitive so that no one will hold them accountable...

Well, in your case, they are correct at least 2/3 of the time... (oh no he didn't...  )

Agreed...

These are not pro level refs. They will make mistakes and they may hold grudges when coaches/parents personally attack them for making mistakes in games that don't have significant financial impact on anyone's lives.

Get over it.

The sooner you realize that arguing with refs and attacking them will never benefit you and may in fact "harm" you, you might decide to control ONLY what you can control and let it go.

Shelby427 wrote:

bwgophers wrote:

silentparent wrote:

10sDad wrote:A lot of chatter about how we should complain, follow the process, etc.  Trouble is, it won't right the wrong, nor will it even make a difference.

Years ago, back in rec, there was a ref that had an issue with our coach at the time.  He would intentionally call things against our team (and not against the others), to the point that our girls were coming off the field bloody - just to try to get our coach riled up.  We complained.  NTX told us we were just sore losers (even though we won the game, and every other game that season).  After the second game, we complained again...nothing.  After the THIRD game, we complained again.  The assessor came out to FOURTH game, and they decided that in their infinite wisdom that the referee was a good referee - but that he should not ref any more of OUR games even though there was only one game remaining in the season and he was not scheduled to work it.  How's that for sweeping it under the rug?  Again...no accountability whatsoever.

The "process" is purposely inadequate, time consuming and laborious to make it impossible to actually affect change from the parent/team perspective.  And even if you dedicate your self to seeking change, none will happen, and your kid's safety will be put in danger week in and week out.  Soccer is infinitely much more fun to watch and play when you have quality refereeing.

Perhaps my personal problem is that I have seen quality refereeing, so I know it exists.  Which makes it harder for me to accept the incompetent ones.

Well part of the problem is that they see parents and teams as adversaries that are attacking them and their system, instead of as customers. They reflexively dismiss these claims as sore losers, dumb parents, whining coaches etc. many have been their positions too long and view it as personal fiefdom. The process is purposefully designed to be laborious and punitive so that no one will hold them accountable...

Well, in your case, they are correct at least 2/3 of the time... (oh no he didn't...  )

Agreed...

These are not pro level refs. They will make mistakes and they may hold grudges when coaches/parents personally attack them for making mistakes in games that don't have significant financial impact on anyone's lives.

Get over it.

The sooner you realize that arguing with refs and attacking them will never benefit you and may in fact "harm" you, you might decide to control ONLY what you can control and let it go.

Worth quoting... And an amen.

I'm going to give bw a pass since he does a lot of work. When you accept mediocrity and think complaining about it is wrong, you deserve what you get. As i said before, this system is in place to wring as much money from gullible parents as possible...

silentparent wrote:I'm going to give bw a pass since he does a lot of work. When you accept mediocrity and think complaining about it is wrong, you deserve what you get. As i said before, this system is in place to wring as much money from gullible parents as possible...

A system is also in place to provide feedback to the league administration in the form of feedback on the refs and when coaches don't do that or if they do and the league admins don't take action, yet teams continue to sign up for a league that doesn't listen to your ref complaints, what are you saying to the league administration...?

Only game in town....

How about this question?

Do Ref's have a little "Black Book" on certain Teams, Teams Coaches, Teams Parents, Clubs?

I mean, do the refs know before hand which teams are going to give them grief? Such as, do the refs get told by other "Ref's" or maybe even "League officials", to "watch out" for certain coaches, teams, parents, clubs and to throw cards at them, to curtail them?

It also brings up another question, if the ref's are getting badgered, why don't they throw some cards that teams direction?  Yeah they might cause more uproar, but eventually if more cards get thrown, the less the talking will be (Possibly  )

The Ref's are allowed to throw cards correct?

Here's my 5 cents in this referee topic ... no matter what organization rec or academy I find very poor organization representation. If this was a well run business, you'd have managers and directors out on the field patrolling. These people should be not only reviewing/advising their personell but watching out for crowd control.

I just don't see the participation of these individuals. I would imaging these guys be out there with their polo shirts displaying their logo, but they are not. I've only seen the yellow and black stripe people.

I can tell you that I have been participating in academy for 5 years and I couldn't tell you who the directors of some of these organization like TGPl or DSP are.

I know when there are problems in the league I work most often that the more experienced higher level referees are put on those games or if they feel that the higher level referee might be able to more effectively manage the situation.  

We are actually not supposed to throw cards at the coaches/parents. Exception high school soccer you can card coach or its more part of the game. Supposed to speak with coaches, coaches are supposed to communicate with parents, if parents dont behave coach is first one removed.  Not sure if that policy across the board in all leagues though.

I have never heard anyone tell any referee assessor, assignor, etc tell any referee to card just because the team has been a problem in the past.  I certainly dont have  black book, but I do at times remember the teams that gave me the most trouble.  SOmetimes those teams have been good the next time around.  

I did have a bit of a funny incident once where I was an AR and the bench behind me was complaining about a foul called against them.  (ball was on opposite end of the field). Comment to players guys you know if that had happened to your player you would be yelling for a yellow card.  They all laughed and said you know what your right ref we would be.  Parents complained a bit but players were great after that point. Didnt argue a single call after that.

If I may here is my list of complaints I get from parents that i find irritating

1. Handling the ball ( if the ball is nailed into players hand sorry not going to get the call on that one from me, so many parents complain about any ball that hits the hand. hand must play ball not the other way around. Younger girls if they keep arms close to body to shield face or chest sorry not getting that call either).

2. Off-Side- Player in an offside position runs back to the ball (be surprised the amount of coaches that say because she touched it on-side she was on). When coaches/parents trying to make the call on off-side from midfield. (I know some can be obvious but others not so much unless right on the line).

3. Players go in for hard challenge players both make contact with the ball (never contact each other) and screaming for a foul.

4. Fouls when I am closer then parents or when a player has very little contact and goes down.  Just because player ended up on the ground does not mean a foul.

5. Understanding advantage when I decide to give and not to give. I generally like to let the teams play (in most cases this is competitive soccer and I want to let the teams play like it, if a foul does not effect play I tend to let play continue, if it disrupts then i call the foul.  

this is my very favorite- call it both ways referee (when I have called 1-2 fouls per team)

I do know they are re vamping the referee system at the moment so maybe some of the changes coming will benefit

The problem is much bigger (and very different) than described here.  The leagues know they have a problem with referees, but the solution is very difficult.  

If all of the referees that have been criticized here (and I'm sure some of the criticism is well deserved) were replaced, where would the replacements come from?  The answer is: nowhere.  They don't exist.  There is a significant shortage of qualified referees in this area.  There simply is not a sufficient influx of new talent to back-fill the void left if you got rid of the unfit or otherwise unqualified referees.  

New youth referees start out working the youngest games, as they should.  The U-Littles were great.  The players are having fun, and for the most part, their parents are happy just watching them have a good time running all over the pitch in little bee hives of activity.

Unfortunately, the next step up (academy and early select) is where many of the more overzealous parents reside. I remember, because our team had some of those parents.  My own dd, and many of her teammates, reffed for a year or so, and made a ton of money off of it, but quit.  She refused to continue because she got tired of being yelled at continuously, insulted, cursed at, etc.  

NTX, LHGCL, and all the leagues know they have a problem, and contrary to what has been said here, they want it fixed, too.  There has to be a process to submit these kinds of complaints, or they would do nothing but deal with parents complaining about bad calls. LHGCL has a process, and its a fairly simple one:  The coach has to complete and sign the form.  I asked our commissioner last year how many of the forms get filled out each year, and he told me virtually none.

Young soccer players make great referees.  They have a passion for the game, they understand the game, and they understand how important solid refereeing is to the players.  And it's great money.  But if they quit after only a short time because they decide to get their "life's lessons" on how tough life can be from another source, you're faced with what we have now: taking virtually anyone with a badge because there aren't many options.

Leagues use assessors, but the reality is that some leagues utilize a small crew of assessors and often the assessors are recognized, so they may not observe an average game for that crew.  They really need more assessors, and more refs need to be assessed, but it doesn't solve the problem of a lack of qualified officials.

My dd has graduated and is off playing in college.  As I look back, it's amazing how much less of a problem these same referees came to be as the players got older and into the later years of select.  Or perhaps, over time, we actually came to realize that in the big picture it just wasn't that big of a deal.

Everyone wants a solution to this problem, and it is a real problem.  However, the answer isn't to abuse the referees that are there.   It's really only making matters worse.

Sad truth... the best refs in NTX pretty much stay far away from LHGCL. If you want to see the best refs, you gotta have a bb that plays in the older divisions of boys classic or D1 NTPSA. LHGCL knows this is an issue, but there just aren't enough great refs to go around. The really good refs want to work with other refs that they feel have the same skill and fitness level. Vicious cycle. League can't get better refs, parents get angry watching inconsistent game calling, league gets a rep for over the top parents, rinse, repeat.

Parents are going to have to relax as the newer kids gain experience. Yes, they are going to miss calls as they gain experience.
However, we do discuss these things during the half and at the end of the game.

I love working with the kids that are wanting to referee and learn.  
However, what I will not allow is a 40 year old dad standing and yelling behind my 14 year old kid A/R.  
Imagine how intimidating it is to have your kids trying to work and an irate parent yelling at them trying to do their job.  

Because of the complaining from the parents above that aren't doing anything to help, this is your future.  Parents and kids coming to games and not having a full crew.  Although, it's currently not available within NTX but I can see them having referees to run duals.

It's unfortunate but this has been a discussion for years and has yet to get better.

Bottom line is that refs are paid not volunteers and are expected to know the rules. PrimeTime does not require certified refs. They use a lot of young kids to do ARs, many of them simply don't know the rules.
Secondly, when an AR talks back to parents in a derogatory manner, it makes the situation worse. Parents should be dealt with, but comments like "do you want to ref" or "do you think you can do a better job?" Have no place from an official.
My two boys are refs and they deal with unhappy parents all the time, but have never talked back to parents and instead have the ref deal with them.
Oh yeah and don't let me get started on playing the game with a missing AR, I hope we get a partial discount!

soccerpapa2 wrote:Bottom line is that refs are paid not volunteers and are expected to know the rules.  PrimeTime does not require certified refs.  They use a lot of young kids to do ARs, many of them simply don't know the rules.
Secondly, when an AR talks back to parents in a derogatory manner, it makes the situation worse.  Parents should be dealt with, but comments like "do you want to ref" or "do you think you can do a better job?" Have no place from an official.
My two boys are refs and they deal with unhappy parents all the time, but have never talked back to parents and instead have the ref deal with them.
Oh yeah and don't let me get started on playing the game with a missing AR, I hope we get a partial discount!

I tell my AR's never address the parents because that's a conversation you'll never win.
However, address their concerns to me and I'll handle it from there.
Before every game I talk with both coaches. I'll explain my refereeing style and have never had a problem with a coach.  
I've never thrown a coach/parent out of a game. I personally, have no problem with parents yelling during the game.
As long as they're not hammering me over and over again.  


And yes you get a discount if you're missing and AR.

Lots of valid points on both sides of the issue. Ballhead, I tend to agree with you on just about everything except "And it's great money". Man, on, man. Even if a kid makes close to $20 an hour officiating, it can't possibly be worth it more often than not. Coaches yelling at you, parents behaving even worse, hot, cold, windy, half of the time spent running up and down a field, and on and on. I wouldn't officiate for $50 an hour. I would surely snap on the first coach or parent to call me a name or tell me I don't know what I'm doing during a game in 104 degree weather.

But I believe the idea of paying refs more - and then demanding more of them - has been brought up on this forum before. This makes a lot of sense to me. People aren't exactly lining up to be soccer officials, right? If the pay were notably higher, however, they would. And with others waiting to take their well-paying job, the higher paid refs would be willing to do their jobs better to keep them. That's how it works in other professions. Why would officiating be any different? Get a bunch of fit, hard-working, smart, focused individuals who are motivated to earn a good income and suddenly you have the right balance of supply and demand. Parents pay stupid money for coaching. Let them pay stupid money for good officiating.

why would you get a discount when your team yelling at the referees so much that they've quit is the main reason you only have 2 show up for your team's game? You would think it'd be the opposite in that you'd pay double for the quality officials that can show up on time, manage the game properly, and keep you from stroking out on the sideline.

but in all honesty, most of the complainers don't really want it fixed and that's exhibited by this thread. there have been some really good points made about following the proper protocol to file a complaint with your league or explanations of the assessment process for referee development and everyone seems to have a rebuttal. Well, continue with your rebuttals and complaints and continue to get the same refs. i hope you enjoy it.

the real truth is that the real refs don't ref in unsanctioned leagues doing games with irrational parents & coaches. A prime example of why that is occurred earlier this year when a referee was killed after he was punched out for what was perceived to be a bad call. it ain't worth it. the better refs aren't even reffing youth leagues, they do college games or amateur leagues. the best youth refs are assigned the more challenging games, ie U17 & above. (Notice i didn't mention a gender). the medium level refs are doing the medium ages (U14-16). and so on.

Maybe you can get the trend now, but my point is they aren't reffing a U10 Academy league where the kids should be developing technique and being creative, not waiting for the next free kick to try and run a set play to score a goal. That's not what it's about at that level, but you couldn't tell that by listening to the sideline. you'd think it was life & death over a throw-in at midfield. the kids can't even throw the ball in far enough to make a difference. Kids in other parts of the world don't get a SINGLE referee until U11 and don't get a full crew until U15.

but this is a never-ending deal. someone pointed out earlier that they realized the refs are only a small part of the game, but it was too late. as soon as this group of complainers realizes that the reffing ain't that bad, there will be another group of U10 parents that will think it's the end of the world that the ref missed an offside call in the 14th minute on a random Sunday afternoon. BTW, if you think NTX is bad, take your team to Alabama for a soccer tournament and see what their best refs have to offer.

soccerpapa2 wrote:Bottom line is that refs are paid not volunteers and are expected to know the rules.  PrimeTime does not require certified refs.  They use a lot of young kids to do ARs, many of them simply don't know the rules.
Secondly, when an AR talks back to parents in a derogatory manner, it makes the situation worse.  Parents should be dealt with, but comments like "do you want to ref" or "do you think you can do a better job?" Have no place from an official.
My two boys are refs and they deal with unhappy parents all the time, but have never talked back to parents and instead have the ref deal with them.
Oh yeah and don't let me get started on playing the game with a missing AR, I hope we get a partial discount!

it might help if parents actually took a look at the rules also. i mean, it would prevent alot of rage if they understand handling or offiside, right? parents get worked up over a team subbing on the "wrong" throw when they don't know the sub rule in a league or tournament. but that would take the fun out of taking your frustrations from the week on a 15 year old kid running a line on a U10 soccer game.

If you do follow up and follow the procedures, things can and do happen. We had an issue last year where a blatant foul caused a season ending injury and the ref did not even call the foul. Lucky for us, we had it all on video including the ref with a clear view of the incident. LHGCL did follow through on the issue and the ref was disciplined (let go). Yes it helped that we had it on video but their point to us was that if we only get a single complaint on a ref or even two, that really isn't enough to go on. Refs will make bad calls...what they need is to be able to see a pattern and with out people using the correct system, they don't get that. What they get are no specific complaints about refs in general. Filing the complaints...well that is up to your coach or manager.

(this is not in reply to the preceding post but the thread in general)

I don't post much on this forum anymore. The drama and redundancy wore me out a long time ago, but I do check in to check scores and chatter from time to time. I finally came upon this thread.

My older kids are refs (grade 8 I think) and ref a lot of local rec games and low age group academy. They have gone through the training and can only assume the do ok.

But here's a thought.. in our culture of losers, whiners, complainers, soccer experts has anyone tried to make a difference?

We seem to have become a group of "takers". We are all owed something. We pay taxes. We pay league fees. We pay club fees. We deserve the best for our money.

In addition to paying for my kids to play soccer, I paid for my kids to go out of town for training; paid for the hotel room because it was two days, and paid for the training. And as such for all referees, regardless of age.

On the small scale, if my kid made a bad call, I would encourage parents to talk to him of her after the game in a constructive manner. If you know more about soccer possibly you could provide a community service by educating them. Possibly you could discuss perspective and educate the referee or maybe learn a bit about soccer rules yourself.

Be a leader. Not a bitcher. Do something for the greater good. Griping is easy. You want to win in your game in your league but winning in your community is too much work. You draw the line. You came to win the game. You are not seeking to advance the sport, but a parent that wants to win the game.

I agree many refs (old and young) are good and many not so good. And many will not receive you well. Some are real jerks. But like many things it is 80/20. Make a difference with most that matter. Seek to improve. Open a dialogue. The worst refs will be phased out.

One or more posts mentioned refs holding grudges. Damn right that's true. It's called the Jordan Effect. Refs hold to a higher standard and don't try to influence the winner, but you can bet that there is partiality in close calls. Michael Jordan talked to all refs before each game and knew all their kids names and how old they were. By contrast, when Alomar spit in the umpires face many years ago; how big do you think his strike zone was after that? That is not refereeing. That's just human nature.

So I say to you all that have been screwed by refs...what are you doing about it? Step Up.

And before you reply with a "kettle black" post; most of my kids are now out of competitive soccer except and 02.

My name is Bob McGregor. I am the girls youth director for Colleyville Lacrosse. I am meeting with the President of US Lacrosse (the governing body of all games played nationwide) in two weeks to discuss parent involvement and officiating.

Do something!

bob

bobmac15 wrote:(this is not in reply to the preceding post but the thread in general)

I don't post much on this forum anymore. The drama and redundancy wore me out a long time ago, but I do check in to check scores and chatter from time to time. I finally came upon this thread.

My older kids are refs (grade 8 I think) and ref a lot of local rec games and low age group academy. They have gone through the training and can only assume the do ok.

But here's a thought.. in our culture of losers, whiners, complainers, soccer experts has anyone tried to make a difference?

We seem to have become a group of "takers". We are all owed something. We pay taxes. We pay league fees. We pay club fees. We deserve the best for our money.

In addition to paying for my kids to play soccer, I paid for my kids to go out of town for training; paid for the hotel room because it was two days, and paid for the training. And as such for all referees, regardless of age.

On the small scale, if my kid made a bad call, I would encourage parents to talk to him of her after the game in a constructive manner. If you know more about soccer possibly you could provide a community service by educating them. Possibly you could discuss perspective and educate the referee or maybe learn a bit about soccer rules yourself.

Be a leader. Not a bitcher. Do something for the greater good. Griping is easy. You want to win in your game in your league but winning in your community is too much work. You draw the line. You came to win the game. You are not seeking to advance the sport, but a parent that wants to win the game.

I agree many refs (old and young) are good and many not so good. And many will not receive you well. Some are real jerks. But like many things it is 80/20. Make a difference with most that matter. Seek to improve. Open a dialogue. The worst refs will be phased out.

One or more posts mentioned refs holding grudges. Damn right that's true. It's called the Jordan Effect. Refs hold to a higher standard and don't try to influence the winner, but you can bet that there is partiality in close calls. Michael Jordan talked to all refs before each game and knew all their kids names and how old they were. By contrast, when Alomar spit in the umpires face many years ago; how big do you think his strike zone was after that? That is not refereeing. That's just human nature.

So I say to you all that have been screwed by refs...what are you doing about it? Step Up.

And before you reply with a "kettle black" post; most of my kids are now out of competitive soccer except and 02.

My name is Bob McGregor. I am the girls youth director for Colleyville Lacrosse. I am meeting with the President of US Lacrosse (the governing body of all games played nationwide) in two weeks to discuss parent involvement and officiating.

Do something!

bob

Just curious......when is your meeting with FIFA.......

bobmac15 wrote:(this is not in reply to the preceding post but the thread in general)

I don't post much on this forum anymore.  The drama and redundancy wore me out a long time ago, but I do check in to check scores and chatter from time to time.  I finally came upon this thread.  

My older kids are refs (grade 8 I think) and ref a lot of local rec games and low age group academy.  They have gone through the training and can only assume the do ok.

But here's a thought.. in our culture of losers, whiners, complainers, soccer experts has anyone tried to make a difference?  

We seem to have become a group of "takers".  We are all owed something.  We pay taxes.  We pay league fees.  We pay club fees.  We deserve the best for our money.

In addition to paying for my kids to play soccer, I paid for my kids to go out of town for training; paid for the hotel room because it was two days, and paid for the training. And as such for all referees, regardless of age.

On the small scale, if my kid made a bad call, I would encourage parents to talk to him of her after the game in a constructive manner.  If you know more about soccer possibly you could provide a community service by educating them.  Possibly you could discuss perspective and educate the referee or maybe learn a bit about soccer rules yourself.  

Be a leader.  Not a bitcher.  Do something for the greater good.  Griping is easy.  You want to win in your game in your league but winning in your community is too much work.  You draw the line.  You came to win the game.  You are not seeking to advance the sport, but a parent that wants to win the game.

I agree many refs (old and young) are good and many not so good.  And many will not receive you well.  Some are real jerks.  But like many things it is 80/20.  Make a difference with most that matter.  Seek to improve.  Open a dialogue.  The worst refs will be phased out.

One or more posts mentioned refs holding grudges.  Damn right that's true.  It's called the Jordan Effect.  Refs hold to a higher standard and don't try to influence the winner, but you can bet that there is partiality in close calls.  Michael Jordan talked to all refs before each game and knew all their kids names and how old they were.  By contrast, when Alomar spit in the umpires face many years ago; how big do you think his strike zone was after that?  That is not refereeing.  That's just human nature.

So I say to you all that have been screwed by refs...what are you doing about it?  Step Up.

And before you reply with a "kettle black" post; most of my kids are now out of competitive soccer except and 02.

My name is Bob McGregor.  I am the girls youth director for Colleyville Lacrosse.  I am meeting with the President of US Lacrosse (the governing body of all games played nationwide) in two weeks to discuss parent involvement and officiating.

Do something!

bob

Best post I have read in a while. We do need more people to step up and stop just complaining.

Ref quality has seemed weaker than previous years

bobmac15 wrote:
On the small scale, if my kid made a bad call, I would encourage parents to talk to him of her after the game in a constructive manner.

VERY bad idea. Spectators are not participants in the match and have no standing to "correct" the referee, and certainly should NEVER approach a youth referee. The lines are blurred in this situation, as the child is the authority during the game but afterward an adult imposes his presence and will upon the child. Inappropriate in this situation.

Spectators, with very few exceptions, are not trained in the Laws of the Game, foul recognition, mechanics, ..., and certainly are not trained as assessors. Spectators also watch the game differently, usually following the ball, and will complain, for example, will see the ball kicked and look up field to see a player that they think is in an offside position, then complain about offside not being called by the AR when it is the AR who is watching the positions of the players at the instant the ball was played. I am not saying that spectators' complaints are never warranted, just that usually they don't interpret what they are seeing the same as the ref. Read ekkeeper1's post.

If you want to help, write up a specific situation with facts and forward to the referee director for the league. "10:00 game on field 4, ref called a PK on a pass back to the keeper" - I hope not, but you get the idea. "ref did not keep control of the game" isn't particularly helpful. The director ( qualify: a good referee director ) will speak with the ref if there is a misunderstanding of a Law and will watch a match if there concerns about the ref working at the appropriate level of game.