Ballhoggedness

go99 wrote:okay so we are talking about 2 different things.  You are talking about a coach building his team.  I am talking about building a player.  In the end teams don't go anywhere, players do

Agreed go99.  I love to watch possession soccer.  I think the creativity and collective skill and brains to do it well is like chess....compared to kickball or dribblefest...checkers.

That said I don't want to see a team of 8 years olds who can only move the ball with one touch short passing  and pattern play. Those players will be handicapped when they get older and need basic 1v1 skills to play at the top level. They can become robotic, system players.

Players, especially girls, who can routinely beat players off the dribble are highly sought after, rare commodities. As frustrating as it may be to watch a kid selfish on the ball oblivious to their teammates,  they aren't made by forcing them to pass in academy.

Now I imagine a  u14 ball hog has to stay on bad teams because real problems break out being selfish at that age on a team with multiple other talented players.

exactlly. Recognizing the difference between and 8 yr old, 14 yr old and a pro.

chivasfanf wrote: I am curious as to what level of play this was in, LH, PPL, rec, school league? A few scenarios come to my mind. Maybe one of the coaches is her dad and encourages her to play this way in hopes she will be noticed. Maybe the parents and other players are tired of it, but feel their hands are tied? Maybe the rest of the players are equally skilled but are taught to pass to her. Maybe the team plays even better without her because then they can actually play as a team and have multiple players who can score. Once again, just a few scenarios came to mind, but I am sure it can be very frustrating for the rest of the players.

That's an excellent question. If its U-14, I can't imagine a team (or individual player) that doesn't pass, being successful playing against any type of higher level competition. If her skills are such that she can consistently beat 5 or 6 players, while moving up the field, she is playing at a too low a level of soccer.

To me, the question is what type of ball-hog is she... a dominant player or a turnover machine? A good player consistently finishes with a score or good SOG; a turnover machine isn't a good player.

I would agree with 4-3-3 that 1v1 skills should be the basic knowledge of every player at the earliest level.
I'm making assumptions based on what we know, select level players with the "give it to Suzie" pattern of play. Once you identify the "go to" player they are marked. If five players can finish an assist, that assist is good as a goal to me, especially when there are multiple players to utilize. One Suzy isn't enough.
Coach&Ref make a excellent point too. I've seen many players who would rather hold the ball than pass for fear of passing to a turnover.

Packrabbit wrote:

chivasfanf wrote: I am curious as to what level of play this was in, LH, PPL, rec, school league? A few scenarios come to my mind. Maybe one of the coaches is her dad and encourages her to play this way in hopes she will be noticed. Maybe the parents and other players are tired of it, but feel their hands are tied? Maybe the rest of the players are equally skilled but are taught to pass to her. Maybe the team plays even better without her because then they can actually play as a team and have multiple players who can score. Once again, just a few scenarios came to mind, but I am sure it can be very frustrating for the rest of the players.

That's an excellent question. If its U-14, I can't imagine a team (or individual player) that doesn't pass, being successful playing against any type of higher level competition. If her skills are such that she can consistently beat 5 or 6 players, while moving up the field, she is playing at a too low a level of soccer.

To me, the question is what type of ball-hog is she... a dominant player or a turnover machine? A good player consistently finishes with a score or good SOG; a turnover machine isn't a good player.

 

"I've seen many players who would rather hold the ball than pass for fear of passing to a turnover."

I call total bs, that is just an excuse. true ballhogs usually make bad teammates because they think they can do it all, when in reality they are just turnover machines....

midfieldersdad wrote:

silentparent wrote: "I've seen many players who would rather hold the ball than pass for fear of passing to a turnover."

I call total bs, that is just an excuse. true ballhogs usually make bad teammates because they think they can do it all, when in reality they are just turnover machines....

That was my point, ball hogs are not team players! Are you reading any of my posts?

i was referring to coach and ref, but yes you are on the right track. btw i know that ball hogs often don't get the pass because everyone knows they won't pass back...

hmm where did you go?

silentparent wrote:

midfieldersdad wrote:

silentparent wrote: "I've seen many players who would rather hold the ball than pass for fear of passing to a turnover."

I call total bs, that is just an excuse. true ballhogs usually make bad teammates because they think they can do it all, when in reality they are just turnover machines....

That was my point, ball hogs are not team players! Are you reading any of my posts?

i was referring to coach and ref, but yes you are on the right track. btw i know that all hogs often don't get the pass because everyone knows they won't pass back...

hmm where did you go? 

My mistake.

I was trying to edit my post and the script in my phone did want anything to do with that.

Interesting discussion.
The 1v1 skill is definitely lost or, at least minimized when going from a Latino style (attack as a team) to a target player, single forward situation. One of my kids experienced that - went from a possession style where he could stand out as he could make quick decisions and good passes to an environment where the coach wasn't as interested in Barcelona-like triangles/movement. A lot of that was genetics as well as size/speed come into play a lot more when forced into 1v1 situations.

Disagree on the assessment of fearing turnovers. I've seen it on both the girls and boys side in multiple sports. There comes a time or a coach where kids turn into 'just do it' to 'wait, something bad might happen and I will get yelled at'. It has very little to do with ballhoggedness and more to do with growing confidence or undestanding what they are supposed to do versus focusing on potential mistakes. Some coaches want kids to take risks, others, will rip the kids apart for making a poor judgement.

You will always have kids who will only pass to a few select people or avoid others that they know won't cut it. Always enjoyed baseball/softball when the kid with the ball knew the other kid couldn't catch it - hard to get an out when you don't throw it.

In my observations, the number of forwards who are deemed ballhogs is a little over 100%. I heard the parents on Messi's youth teams were livid as well. Still hold a grudge as they mow his lawn.

It is always a delicate balance for a coach. Not only the skill, but the willingness to take players on 1v1 can be a very tough thing to instill in kids, you need to be careful not to coach it out of them. It's the same thing with kids who have a natural tendency to play with flair - a coach with too restrictive a "system" can kill not only the kid's creativity but their enjoyment of the game.

Most often over the years I've heard the "ballhog" thing from parents of kids who play with neither flair nor the willingness to take players on.

Another parent and I were debating SOGs. This may be another topic thread but I'll pose the question. If a player gets into space and can take a SOG, should SOGs be encouraged? Or are SOGs merely evidence of a missed shot?
My thought is a SOG, if NOT saved, can produce opportunities to score and should be encouraged when in range.

Age 13-14, as described in the first post, seems a bit old for a player to be trying to take on an entire other team in lieu of using her own teammates. That's not to say I don't love seeing a great player beating a series of opponents utilizing excellent skill work. But if it was 20 minutes of this, no goals, and no passes to teammates, that's extreme. As was pointed out, this is soccer we're talking about with 11 on each side. It is a team sport no matter how much a single parent may want to afford only his daughter the opportunities to "develop" while everyone else watches. Being able to beat a few opponents, a give-and-go to a teammate, and then shooting or making an assist... that also falls under the heading of "development" in my book. That's smart soccer.

Personally, I don't emphasize passing much at the younger ages, through around U8 or U9 depending on the team's level of play. A lot of the passing game works itself out on the field. By U9, if a player won't give up the ball, her teammates let her hear about it. But by U13 - U14, good passing is a very necessary part of the game.

JustaSport wrote:Age 13-14, as described in the first post, seems a bit old for a player to be trying to take on an entire other team in lieu of using her own teammates.  That's not to say I don't love seeing a great player beating a series of opponents utilizing excellent skill work.  But if it was 20 minutes of this, no goals, and no passes to teammates, that's extreme.  As was pointed out, this is soccer we're talking about with 11 on each side.  It is a team sport no matter how much a single parent may want to afford only his daughter the opportunities to "develop" while everyone else watches.  Being able to beat a few opponents, a give-and-go to a teammate, and then shooting or making an assist... that also falls under the heading of "development" in my book.  That's smart soccer.

Personally, I don't emphasize passing much at the younger ages, through around U8 or U9 depending on the team's level of play.  A lot of the passing game works itself out on the field.  By U9, if a player won't give up the ball, her teammates let her hear about it.  But by U13 - U14, good passing is a very necessary part of the game.

All great players must go through the selfish phase of soccer.  If they don't, they will never be great players.  You can't learn to be good with the ball if you give it away as soon as you get it.

However, I agree that 13-14 seems to be a bit old for that phase.  Most really good players are starting to learn when to give the ball up and when to keep it at that age.

I teach my DD to keep the ball at all cost. If the coach subs you out, take the ball with you.
Now that's true possession soccer!!!

midfieldersdad wrote:Another parent and I were debating SOGs. This may be another topic thread but I'll pose the question. If a player gets into space and can take a SOG, should SOGs be encouraged? Or are SOGs merely evidence of a missed shot?
My thought is a SOG, if NOT saved, can produce opportunities to score and should be encouraged when in range.

A SHOT:Any time a player makes an attempt (regardless of results) to take a shot and the ball  travel toward the goal, it is considered a shot. This includes ball that are too high or wide of the goal mouth.

A SHOT ON GOAL: Any time a player makes an attempt to take a shot that does or would  enter the goal is considered a (SOG). This includes shots that bounce off the goals, shots stopped by a defender, or shots saved by a goalkeeper.

Are you sure you need to ask this question?

futbollove wrote:I teach my DD to keep the ball at all cost. If the coach subs you out, take the ball with you.
Now that's true possession soccer!!!

 

midfieldersdad wrote:Another parent and I were debating SOGs. This may be another topic thread but I'll pose the question. If a player gets into space and can take a SOG, should SOGs be encouraged? Or are SOGs merely evidence of a missed shot?
My thought is a SOG, if NOT saved, can produce opportunities to score and should be encouraged when in range.

SOG and shots missed are two different statistics.

damien's shadow wrote:

midfieldersdad wrote:Another parent and I were debating SOGs. This may be another topic thread but I'll pose the question. If a player gets into space and can take a SOG, should SOGs be encouraged? Or are SOGs merely evidence of a missed shot?
My thought is a SOG, if NOT saved, can produce opportunities to score and should be encouraged when in range.

A SHOT:Any time a player makes an attempt (regardless of results) to take a shot and the ball  travel toward the goal, it is considered a shot. This includes ball that are too high or wide of the goal mouth.

A SHOT ON GOAL: Any time a player makes an attempt to take a shot that does or would  enter the goal is considered a (SOG). This includes shots that bounce off the goals, shots stopped by a defender, or shots saved by a goalkeeper.

Are you sure you need to ask this question?

You really didn't understand my question. Read it again. SHOULD SOGs BE ENCOURAGED????? And, I wasn’t really asking you. I was hoping to hear from the more respected members of this community, and no offense but your inactivity and lurker status leads me to believe either you really don’t know or this is personal. If in the event this IS personal. The following excerpt is from the NCAA Soccer Statics Rules for Scoring, which is what I used.  




SECTION 3—SHOTS
Article 1. A shot is an attempt that is taken with the intent of scoring and is directed toward the goal.

Article 2. A cross or crossing pass is not a shot. A cross is a long kick from a wide position into the penalty area in front of the goal. The intent of a cross is to set up a scoring opportunity for an attacking player. A goalkeeper who intercepts a cross is not credited with a save. Exception: A cross that the goalkeeper stops that otherwise would have entered the goal is considered a shot, and the goalkeeper is credited with a save.

A.R. 1. Allen dribbles the ball the length of the field in the direction of the opponent’s net. He dribbles the ball toward the corner before lofting a pass in front of the net to Abujidan. However, while the ball is still in the air, Bates, Team B's goalkeeper, grabs it to prevent the shot on goal. RULING: Even though the keeper grabbed the ball, it is not considered a save because the intent of the offensive player was to pass to another player and not to shoot. Allen is not credited with a shot, and Bates is not credited with a save.

Article 3. A shot on goal is a shot that is on net. The results of a shot on goal must be either a save by the goalkeeper or defending team or a goal by the attacking team. A shot that hits the post or crossbar without being deflected by a goalkeeper or defender and does not cross the goal line is not a shot on goal.

midfieldersdad wrote:

damien's shadow wrote:

midfieldersdad wrote:Another parent and I were debating SOGs. This may be another topic thread but I'll pose the question. If a player gets into space and can take a SOG, should SOGs be encouraged? Or are SOGs merely evidence of a missed shot?
My thought is a SOG, if NOT saved, can produce opportunities to score and should be encouraged when in range.

A SHOT:Any time a player makes an attempt (regardless of results) to take a shot and the ball  travel toward the goal, it is considered a shot. This includes ball that are too high or wide of the goal mouth.

A SHOT ON GOAL: Any time a player makes an attempt to take a shot that does or would  enter the goal is considered a (SOG). This includes shots that bounce off the goals, shots stopped by a defender, or shots saved by a goalkeeper.

Are you sure you need to ask this question?

You really didn't understand my question. Read it again. SHOULD SOGs BE ENCOURAGED????? And, I wasn’t really asking you. I was hoping to hear from the more respected members of this community, and no offense but your inactivity and lurker status leads me to believe either you really don’t know or this is personal. If in the event this IS personal. The following excerpt is from the NCAA Soccer Statics Rules for Scoring, which is what I used.  




SECTION 3—SHOTS
Article 1. A shot is an attempt that is taken with the intent of scoring and is directed toward the goal.

Article 2. A cross or crossing pass is not a shot. A cross is a long kick from a wide position into the penalty area in front of the goal. The intent of a cross is to set up a scoring opportunity for an attacking player. A goalkeeper who intercepts a cross is not credited with a save. Exception: A cross that the goalkeeper stops that otherwise would have entered the goal is considered a shot, and the goalkeeper is credited with a save.

A.R. 1. Allen dribbles the ball the length of the field in the direction of the opponent’s net. He dribbles the ball toward the corner before lofting a pass in front of the net to Abujidan. However, while the ball is still in the air, Bates, Team B's goalkeeper, grabs it to prevent the shot on goal. RULING: Even though the keeper grabbed the ball, it is not considered a save because the intent of the offensive player was to pass to another player and not to shoot. Allen is not credited with a shot, and Bates is not credited with a save.

Article 3. A shot on goal is a shot that is on net. The results of a shot on goal must be either a save by the goalkeeper or defending team or a goal by the attacking team. A shot that hits the post or crossbar without being deflected by a goalkeeper or defender and does not cross the goal line is not a shot on goal.

My Bad... I think SOGs are a good thing; to be encouraged.