Tough Physical Play versus Playing Dirty?

As a spectator or parent, when does tough physical play turn into outright playing dirty?

As a parent and spectator myself, I have no problem with games where both teams compete hard and play aggressively to win 50/50 balls. But I feel the line gets crossed when elbows fly, players get shoved in the back or intentionally tripped. IMO, for situations like this it is up to the people in yellow to take control of the game before it gets out of hand.

In DIII this week I saw a poor girl get rushed to the hospital for what appeared to be a neck injury when colliding with the goalie. Thank God it now appears that she will be okay. But earlier in that game, I also saw another girl on that same team taunting the goalie with an "In your face comment" after she scored. I also witnessed a lot of bad sportsmanship in that game. Today I also had the opportunity to watch another DIII game where a girl was throwing elbows and even intentioanlly spitting in the face of a player that she knocked down.

In both instances, I am embarrassed to say that the refs did nothing. Thus I am sitting here perplexed as to whether it is the player, the parent, the coach or the ref that should be held responsible for these types of actions on the field. Does reporting this to LHGCL even make a difference?

I am not trying to call out any specific teams or players as I have unfortunately witnessed such behaviors from too many players on a wide variety of teams. It takes away from the enjoyment of the game and is certainly setting people up to get injured.

How many times in a game should a ref say "watch your back" "watch your legs" and "watch your arms" from continuous shoving and tripping until he calls a foul?  At least we got a yellow on the two-handed grab around the wrist drag-down, but the take-downs away from the play were ridiculous.

(My personal favorite was "watch your back."  Was he alerting our players that they were about to be run down from behind?)

All you can conclude is that the games are called as the LHGCL board wants them called.

If you don't like the style you will need to have your DD play in a different league.

Lefty wrote:All you can conclude is that the games are called as the LHGCL board wants them called.

If you don't like the style you will need to have your DD play in a different league.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious.  The quality of soccer played in the league is directly related to how the games are called.  A foul is a foul.  They should be called when they occur.  Tired of hearing excuses for dangerous play.  Just because the kids are older doesn't mean that play should be overly physical/dangerous.  It should mean they play a more skilled and tactical game. If you have the skill and ability, you can make a play without trying to hurt your opponent.  Too many coaches emphasis physicality to make up for a lack of skills and tactics.

22 players
3 refs
A constantly moving round target.

I will continue to beat this drum...




FIFA rules are clear and leave NO room for sentiment on the part of the referee:


FIFA Interpretation Rules
--------------------
“Reckless” means that the player has acted with complete disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, his opponent.
A player who plays in a reckless manner must be cautioned (yellow card)

“Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent.
A player who uses excessive force must be sent off (red card)

-------------------------------

There is just too much smash mouth play in LH week in and week out and unfortunately we have become de-sensitized to it and many have come to accepted it as the norm.  

Cautions (cards) are part of the game, yet there is a strong reluctance to use them here...   (Read this gutless, spineless referees)

Its time to reset the bar per the rules... the referees are key, and so is parent understanding and expectation.

If a yellow card is warranted, in the long run it is best for the kids, as they will adjust their game, develop skills and technique rather than rely on brawn.  And kids on the receiving end of a reckless or dangerous challange, they deserve to be protected per the rules!

But ALSO as important for the overall game in NTX, as high level technical play is very difficult to develop in a smash mouth environment at any age.    

Germany Coach Loew comments at World Cup:
(Reuters) - The current Brazil team bear little resemblance to their artistic sides of the past and Germany coach Joachim Loew hopes Tuesday's semi-final referee takes a tough stance against any attempts to disrupt the flow of the game.

"We always think of magicians with the ball when we think of Brazil," he said. "But that's not the case anymore. Their team has changed and physical toughness is now part of their game. We've got to adjust to that - as do the referees."

"There's precious little left of that traditional Brazilian style of soccer, that artistic style of playing that we all know so well," Loew said.

"For sure, Brazil still have good technical players. But they're playing more robustly than any other team here and they have been trying to break up their opponent's attack that way.  (Brazil led all teams in fouls)

"At the end of the day it's up to the referee to come up with the correct punishment," said Loew.
=================================


http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/worldfootball/clubfootball/01/37/04/28/law12-en.pdf
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/footballdevelopment/technicalsupport/refereeing/laws-of-the-game/interpretation/index.html
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/worldfootball/clubfootball/01/37/04/21/i

I will amend my previous comment:

22 player
3 refs
42 subjective parents.

scr460 wrote:

Lefty wrote:All you can conclude is that the games are called as the LHGCL board wants them called.

If you don't like the style you will need to have your DD play in a different league.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious.  The quality of soccer played in the league is directly related to how the games are called.  A foul is a foul.  They should be called when they occur.  Tired of hearing excuses for dangerous play.  Just because the kids are older doesn't mean that play should be overly physical/dangerous.  It should mean they play a more skilled and tactical game. If you have the skill and ability,  you can make a play without trying to hurt your opponent.  Too many coaches emphasis physicality to make up for a lack of skills and tactics.

I agree with you 100%, but it is the way it is because that is how the LHGCL board wants it.

Until they want it different, nothing will change.

To think the LH board has say in how a referee manages the game is absurd.

Again....subjective parents.

And go to South Texas if you think LH is too physical. SMH.

It is not just LH. I have seen it in all of north Texas soccer. I have mostly watched girls games and some boys and it is the same in all. one of the biggest things is running into a player after the ball is gone. extending arms with contact happens all the time. extending their arm out while dribbling to keep a player off the ball and the elbow goes in the neck or face of another player. a lot of playing the body before trying to play the ball. the rules are clear and it is not the leagues it is north Texas that will have to put a stop to the rough play. Just an observation and not calling out any coaches or teams but I know first hand that some coaches preach it and they will until it is called tighter instead of 20 warnings each game

backofthenet wrote:To think the LH board has say in how a referee manages the game is absurd.

Again....subjective parents.

Who selects the referees?

There are basically two types of aggressive play in soccer. There is aggressive to the ball and aggressive to the player. It is one thing for two players to duke it out over the ball, it is another to take out or take down a player. In a recent tournament game, our opponent's coach (not a North Texas team) could be heard yelling at his girls to push our player down from behind to stop her.

On Saturday, before our game, a U19 game was being played. One player purposely tripped her opponent right in front of us. The other girl got up and hit her. The ref pulled both girls together and made them shake hands (no penalties). After a very forced handshake the girl who tripped the other player turned toward the sideline, rolled her eyes and mouthed a profanity. Her sideline laughed.

So, yes some coaches use excessive force to win games (although I don't call it soccer and I certainly don't call it a win). Some players do it. To me these are signs of teams and players who aren't strong enough soccer teams and players to win with skills alone.

When a player has to grab hair, grab arms, grab jerseys, trip, kick, or do anything else they can do to win, then they aren't truly winning and neither is the game of soccer.

I have seen my DD elbowed in the side, chest and back. I have seen her after the game with big bruises and cuts on her ankles where she was kicked. She has had cleat marks on her thigh, a busted lip or two. Does some of this happen in fair play? Yes. But it has also happened before and after she has received the ball.

If more teams would focus more on building skills and game knowledge and solid team play, the better off the league would be.

This game should be about finesse, mental ability and skills. It should not be about tackle football, and win at all costs (to your opponent).

Otherwise, we could put the players in padded gear and helmets.

Sorry, I am stepping away from my soap box now.

Where's silentparent when you need him?

Let's face it, girls at this age are just klutzy.

and parents are just whiners  right sp?


So, how many "warnings" is reasonable?  Somehow, I think there is a problem if the the ref issues 20-30 "warnings" before issuing a foul.

1. Your description of the "handshake incident" is a perfect example of the ref not controlling the game. You throw a punch, Red Card, your out. You don't even have to connect with the punch. The games I watch are not officiated per LOTG. Everone laments the injuries, then in the next breath make excuses for the inexcusable. We haven't seen our last ambulance this season.

2. The list of injuries? Ditto. My personal favorite is the "five finger bruise" with accompanying claw marks on both biceps. I'll take a photo of it next time and post it. Came home from PLD with an absolutely perfect version of that. No fouls called.

3. It is the Ref's job to control the game. The majority don't. It starts out chippy, escalates to cheap and rough and reaches the obvious conclusion with dirty and violent. Then we all stand around and mutter and feign concern, pretending we didn't just cheer that crap on.

More girls will be hurt.....unnecessarily. Hope yours isn't one of them.

Bring on the excuses.

SoccerDad75033 wrote:How many times in a game should a ref say "watch your back" "watch your legs" and "watch your arms" from continuous shoving and tripping until he calls a foul?  At least we got a yellow on the two-handed grab around the wrist drag-down, but the take-downs away from the play were ridiculous.

(My personal favorite was "watch your back."  Was he alerting our players that they were about to be run down from behind?)

I think if a ref is saying this to a player..he's definitely not controlling the game properly! smh.. Aren't these refs suppose to take courses that tell them whats ok and what is not?

OLJW wrote:1. Your description of the "handshake incident" is a perfect example of the ref not controlling the game.  You throw a punch, Red Card, your out.  You don't even have to connect with the punch. The games I watch are not officiated per LOTG. Everone laments the injuries, then in the next breath make excuses for the inexcusable. We haven't seen our last ambulance this season.

2. The list of injuries?  Ditto.  My personal favorite is the "five finger bruise" with accompanying claw marks on both biceps.  I'll take a photo of it next time and post it. Came home from PLD with an absolutely perfect version of that. No fouls called.

3. It is the Ref's job to control the game. The majority don't. It starts out chippy, escalates to cheap and rough and reaches the obvious conclusion with dirty and violent. Then we all stand around and mutter and feign concern, pretending we didn't just cheer that crap on.

More girls will be hurt.....unnecessarily.  Hope yours isn't one of them.  

Bring on the excuses.  

Hence the other post "Have a seat...but not right there".  As our girls get older and physicality becomes more prevalent, it's common sense to fraternize with your own group versus the other team's parents. Things escalate very quickly on the sidelines when it's your kid that just got taken out by a cheap shot.

travelin light wrote:

OLJW wrote:1. Your description of the "handshake incident" is a perfect example of the ref not controlling the game.  You throw a punch, Red Card, your out.  You don't even have to connect with the punch. The games I watch are not officiated per LOTG. Everone laments the injuries, then in the next breath make excuses for the inexcusable. We haven't seen our last ambulance this season.

2. The list of injuries?  Ditto.  My personal favorite is the "five finger bruise" with accompanying claw marks on both biceps.  I'll take a photo of it next time and post it. Came home from PLD with an absolutely perfect version of that. No fouls called.

3. It is the Ref's job to control the game. The majority don't. It starts out chippy, escalates to cheap and rough and reaches the obvious conclusion with dirty and violent. Then we all stand around and mutter and feign concern, pretending we didn't just cheer that crap on.

More girls will be hurt.....unnecessarily.  Hope yours isn't one of them.  

Bring on the excuses.  

Hence the other post "Have a seat...but not right there".  As our girls get older and physicality becomes more prevalent, it's common sense to fraternize with your own group versus the other team's parents. Things escalate very quickly on the sidelines when it's your kid that just got taken out by a cheap shot.

This probably belongs in the other thread, but in response to the above post:

I've found the exact opposite to be true.  As the girls get older, the parents get less "over the top" about the game.  By the time mine graduated a couple of years ago, we knew many of the families on the other teams, my dd had played with many of the players either at high school or on other teams, and everyone tended to keep the games in perspective.

That doesn't mean that an idiot sitting or standing right behind your parent's on the sideline screaming at the the refs or the players, or even making an ass of themselves cheering doesn't get old really quickly, and can end up ugly.

But if you mind your manners, and act friendly to those around you, you can generally watch the game from anywhere, and might even make some new friends.

I've watched many a game standing with the other parents talking to them while watching the game.

I'm glad I see the game differently than most of the folks on this thread. Otherwise, I would have yanked my precious daughter out of the game years ago...

But the thread does support some of the reasons Referees refer to the parents as "The Experts"

Example: Pre-game Meeting, The Center Ref ask the one of the Assistants; "Do you have the coaches or the experts???

soccersounder wrote:I'm glad I see the game differently than most of the folks on this thread. Otherwise, I would have yanked my precious daughter out of the game years ago...

But the thread does support some of the reasons Referees refer to the parents as "The Experts"

Example: Pre-game Meeting, The Center Ref ask the one of the Assistants; "Do you have the coaches or the experts???

Your dd has a Red card for violent play as I recall...so we know which side you are on.

NoSpinZone wrote:

soccersounder wrote:I'm glad I see the game differently than most of the folks on this thread. Otherwise, I would have yanked my precious daughter out of the game years ago...

But the thread does support some of the reasons Referees refer to the parents as "The Experts"

Example: Pre-game Meeting, The Center Ref ask the one of the Assistants; "Do you have the coaches or the experts???

Your dd has a Red card for violent play as I recall...so we know which side you are on.

OK Clown... You know me, but who are you??? I never hide

I was speaking from a Ref perspective, but since you bring it up:

The dd has 2 Reds in going on 9 years of soccer...
I didn't see the 2nd one, the you mention, but from I hear, your team and coach liked the call and our team and coach didn't. Big surprise

Now, Chuck Codd, Assistant Coach/Recruiter at Baylor saw the game (We can agree he is neutral). He asked us to call him through our coach two days later... He said he thought it was a cheap call. he thought my DD moved into the middle at half and started to control the game vs a D1 College level player... Not my words ( I was not there) but the College Coaches words. Her performance in that game was the main reason they (Baylor) offered her a scholarship....

That said... I think our team is in big trouble versus your team this week.. I think you all are loaded.. I wont cheer for you against us, but I will be cheering for you the rest of the way...

As always feel free to PM me.. Holla at me on the sidelines... Your new Foward, the #23's dad has my number.. Feel free to introduce yourself anytime

1. Violence breeds retaliation.
2. Talking smack breeds like comments.
3. LH refs are a joke.

They wait until the game is out of hand before they try unsuccessfully to regain control of it. By then, the parents have become vocal...then some parents get sent to the parking lot, and a player or two get sent to the hospital....but it's never the ref's fault...right?

There are many referees in LHGCL not earning their money

Seven, I would agree that it appears that there are many referees who either don't understand the rules, have forgotten the rules or perhaps never learned them to begin with. There are also many good refs who do understand the rules and they follow the guidelines.

The problem we have is the inconsistency. I am almost thinking of creating flashcards for refs with pictures on them to show what the foul looks like.

Pizza Hut uses pictures on how to make their pizzas hanging right above the stations so that the teenagers they hire can make the pizza correctly.

Maybe the field marshall could carry around flip charts with the most prevalent fouls depicted so that the refs who are uncertain can run over and look at the correct call. Or, we could institute instant replay and have a parent from each side film the games and provide rewinds.

Or, we could post large-sized weather proof pictures depicting the most flagrant fouls on the back walls of each field.

I am tthinking if I knew the name of our center ref tonight I would call him out publicly on the forum. There should be some type of accountability.