Re: Is there any Moral Value in CPP?

by Guest 19/02/15, 12:24 am

dadof3 wrote:

I agree with you principally regarding your assessment; I merely disagree with your analogy.

The analogy is completely valid as it pertains to the fact that the lack of relegation/promotion in MLB essentially eliminates almost all tangible reward that an MLB team might gain from sending players down to the minors for the primary purpose of trying to manipulate the minor league standings. Therefore, the risk (injury, not having that player available to play for the major league team that day), outweighs the reward.

Moving players between teams within the same league/division to manipulate standings is fundamentally equivalent to moving players from a higher division to a lower division team to manipulate standings. If you allow either to happen, and if there is any significant tangible benefit (promotion to a higher league, relegation to a lower league, financial gain from "winning" a championship) that can occur from manipulating the standings, then you will certainly be encouraging teams/clubs to do so. If MLB was structured to allow a "club" to have multiple teams in the major leagues, and to share players between those teams with minimal restrictions, you would get the exact same kind of behavior you allude to in the '00 D1 example, because the monetary value a team would gain from making the MLB playoffs, would offset quite a bit of risk. So while my analogy my not be perfect, it is valid for the point I was making.

Again, the problem isn't with allowing players to move between teams, the problem is when you have an environment where the tangible benefits of gaining competitive advantage are on par or greater than the risks incurred by sharing players.

by Guest 19/02/15, 09:00 am

BW - I know you're not saying LH should get rid of promotion/relegation to make CPP work...but wouldn't be surprised if some would use CPP abuse as kindling to get that fire going. I've noticed quite a few posts recently referring to promotion/relegation.

Not sure anyone thinks it feasible to inflict an annual QT for all players on every age group. So the end of promotion / relegation likely recreates LH as an ECNL for pre-teens with a few clubs given guaranteed placement regardless of quality.

Would be a big get for some clubs, but NTX soccer would suffer in the long run unless and until demand re-created an open competition alternative.

by ballhead 19/02/15, 09:18 am

4-3-3 wrote:BW - I know you're not saying LH should get rid of promotion/relegation to make CPP work...but wouldn't be surprised if some would use CPP abuse as kindling to get that fire going. I've noticed quite a few posts recently referring to promotion/relegation.

Not sure anyone thinks it feasible to inflict an annual QT for all players on every age group. So the end of promotion / relegation likely recreates LH as an ECNL for pre-teens with a few clubs given guaranteed placement regardless of quality.

Would be a big get for some clubs, but NTX soccer would suffer in the long run unless and until demand re-created an open competition alternative.

Promotion and relegation and CPP aren't going anywhere, in my opinion. What I think you'll see is a revision of the CPP rule in LHGCL.

Offering guaranteed spots to a few clubs with everyone else having to qualify would cause this board to explode.

by Guest 19/02/15, 09:32 am

ballhead wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:BW - I know you're not saying LH should get rid of promotion/relegation to make CPP work...but wouldn't be surprised if some would use CPP abuse as kindling to get that fire going. I've noticed quite a few posts recently referring to promotion/relegation.

Not sure anyone thinks it feasible to inflict an annual QT for all players on every age group. So the end of promotion / relegation likely recreates LH as an ECNL for pre-teens with a few clubs given guaranteed placement regardless of quality.

Would be a big get for some clubs, but NTX soccer would suffer in the long run unless and until demand re-created an open competition alternative.

Promotion and relegation and CPP aren't going anywhere, in my opinion. What I think you'll see is a revision of the CPP rule in LHGCL.

Offering guaranteed spots to a few clubs with everyone else having to qualify would cause this board to explode.

I hope you're right. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised. In Socal the clubs created their league (SCDL) to break away from the state league shortly after ECNL got off the ground...from my understanding, no one qualifies and the clubs decide who gets to play and in what flight. There is no promotion / relegation. From reading their forums, seems to be working for the big clubs, and it's only the mid-sized clubs that end up ditching it and going back to the traditional state league. I think it would be ridiculous for NTX, but wouldn't be surprised.

by Guest 19/02/15, 09:38 am

4-3-3 wrote:
ballhead wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:BW - I know you're not saying LH should get rid of promotion/relegation to make CPP work...but wouldn't be surprised if some would use CPP abuse as kindling to get that fire going. I've noticed quite a few posts recently referring to promotion/relegation.

Not sure anyone thinks it feasible to inflict an annual QT for all players on every age group. So the end of promotion / relegation likely recreates LH as an ECNL for pre-teens with a few clubs given guaranteed placement regardless of quality.

Would be a big get for some clubs, but NTX soccer would suffer in the long run unless and until demand re-created an open competition alternative.

Promotion and relegation and CPP aren't going anywhere, in my opinion. What I think you'll see is a revision of the CPP rule in LHGCL.

Offering guaranteed spots to a few clubs with everyone else having to qualify would cause this board to explode.

I hope you're right. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised. In Socal the clubs created their league (SCDL) to break away from the state league shortly after ECNL got off the ground...from my understanding, no one qualifies and the clubs decide who gets to play and in what flight. There is no promotion / relegation. From reading their forums, seems to be working for the big clubs, and it's only the mid-sized clubs that end up ditching it and going back to the traditional state league. I think it would be ridiculous for NTX, but wouldn't be surprised.

Isn't Primetime supposedly planning to start up a select league in the next year or so? What organization are they sanctioned by Question

Wonder what Primetime's pitch (pun intended) will be to attract teams to their league? Suspect

by Guest 19/02/15, 09:50 am

bwgophers wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:
ballhead wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:BW - I know you're not saying LH should get rid of promotion/relegation to make CPP work...but wouldn't be surprised if some would use CPP abuse as kindling to get that fire going. I've noticed quite a few posts recently referring to promotion/relegation.

Not sure anyone thinks it feasible to inflict an annual QT for all players on every age group. So the end of promotion / relegation likely recreates LH as an ECNL for pre-teens with a few clubs given guaranteed placement regardless of quality.

Would be a big get for some clubs, but NTX soccer would suffer in the long run unless and until demand re-created an open competition alternative.

Promotion and relegation and CPP aren't going anywhere, in my opinion. What I think you'll see is a revision of the CPP rule in LHGCL.

Offering guaranteed spots to a few clubs with everyone else having to qualify would cause this board to explode.

I hope you're right. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised. In Socal the clubs created their league (SCDL) to break away from the state league shortly after ECNL got off the ground...from my understanding, no one qualifies and the clubs decide who gets to play and in what flight. There is no promotion / relegation. From reading their forums, seems to be working for the big clubs, and it's only the mid-sized clubs that end up ditching it and going back to the traditional state league. I think it would be ridiculous for NTX, but wouldn't be surprised.

Isn't Primetime supposedly planning to start up a select league in the next year or so? What organization are they sanctioned by

Wonder what Primetime's pitch (pun intended) will be to attract teams to their league?

Hmmm....granted I know nothing about it...but let me guess....

Sanctioned by: US Club Soccer
Pitch: no promotion / relegation, no qualifying, guaranteed placement for big clubs, no parents involved in rule making (unlimited CPP)
Key Members Targeted for startup: the 4 or 5 biggest clubs by volume in NTX
Net Result: more $$$ for the organizers, more $$ for 4 or 5 biggest clubs, more costs for parents within 5 years, dispersion of NTX talent pool across multiple leagues

by SD69 19/02/15, 10:07 am

4-3-3 wrote:
bwgophers wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:
ballhead wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:BW - I know you're not saying LH should get rid of promotion/relegation to make CPP work...but wouldn't be surprised if some would use CPP abuse as kindling to get that fire going. I've noticed quite a few posts recently referring to promotion/relegation.

Not sure anyone thinks it feasible to inflict an annual QT for all players on every age group. So the end of promotion / relegation likely recreates LH as an ECNL for pre-teens with a few clubs given guaranteed placement regardless of quality.

Would be a big get for some clubs, but NTX soccer would suffer in the long run unless and until demand re-created an open competition alternative.

Promotion and relegation and CPP aren't going anywhere, in my opinion. What I think you'll see is a revision of the CPP rule in LHGCL.

Offering guaranteed spots to a few clubs with everyone else having to qualify would cause this board to explode.

I hope you're right. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised. In Socal the clubs created their league (SCDL) to break away from the state league shortly after ECNL got off the ground...from my understanding, no one qualifies and the clubs decide who gets to play and in what flight. There is no promotion / relegation. From reading their forums, seems to be working for the big clubs, and it's only the mid-sized clubs that end up ditching it and going back to the traditional state league. I think it would be ridiculous for NTX, but wouldn't be surprised.

Isn't Primetime supposedly planning to start up a select league in the next year or so? What organization are they sanctioned by

Wonder what Primetime's pitch (pun intended) will be to attract teams to their league?

Hmmm....granted I know nothing about it...but let me guess....

Sanctioned by: US Club Soccer
Pitch: no promotion / relegation, no qualifying, guaranteed placement for big clubs, no parents involved in rule making (unlimited CPP)
Key Members Targeted for startup: the 4 or 5 biggest clubs by volume in NTX
Net Result: more $$$ for the organizers, more $$ for 4 or 5 biggest clubs, more costs for parents within 5 years, dispersion of NTX talent pool across multiple leagues

If this league were to start up, I would guess it would be like playing academy all over again with teams playing one league on Saturday and another on Sunday. Just when I was getting used to only making one 130mi round trip drive a week.

by Packrabbit 19/02/15, 11:07 am

bwgophers wrote:
Packrabbit wrote:
The boys' CPP version you printed above is much more throughly written for player development, and therefore provides a honorable concept I beleive you support.

That's not the boys version. That's straight from the NTSSA bylaws, just replaced the singular reference to NTSSA with XX to not make it 100% obvious where it came from.

Opps, you're right, my apologies- I didn't read the entire body of the text and assumed it was the boys' rule, which is more detailed in the proper of use of CPP.

by Guest 19/02/15, 12:00 pm

Hey Pack, isn't it about time for our semi-annual, flesh-boiling, 00, season preview? I'm bored with having the same conversations we've been having for 2 years and besides.......Dadof3 has been calling me every night for months, inconsolably sobbing about the complete lack of venom on the 00 board. Dad also said your MAMA wears Army boots and he's pretty sure she shot JFK.

I think it's time we rally and return to the good ol' days of outrageous predictions, onion skinned indignation and general pandemonium. I'm thinking something like the food fight scene from Animal House to kick off the Spring Season. I'm thinking you're just the man for the job, that is, unless you've grown old.....and tired......and weak. Heh, heh.

by Looking04 19/02/15, 12:57 pm

Trust me - the 05s are primed!

by InaB 19/02/15, 01:21 pm

FOOD FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Guest 19/02/15, 02:40 pm

That's the right idea. We'll stop short of dismembering anybody's horse.

by CPPmustgoaway 19/02/15, 03:23 pm

CPP is ruining this sport and must be repealed!!!!

by Zizou 19/02/15, 04:02 pm

PPl and Arlington leagues are calling you now. Please join!

by blastit 21/02/15, 05:55 am

Player passes are already in play game one. I think each team should report the age group and who is using it?

by rockindaddy 21/02/15, 08:47 am

OLJW wrote:We interrupt this program to bring you a brief message from THE SURGEON GENERAL:

THE SURGEON GENERAL has determined that banging your head against a brick wall, may result in concussion.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

" Leave them fellers (CPP bickerers) buzzards gotta eat , same as worms."

by Guest 21/02/15, 08:55 am

I reckon so.

by Packrabbit 21/02/15, 04:25 pm

OLJW wrote:Hey Pack, isn't it about time for our semi-annual, flesh-boiling, 00, season preview? I'm bored with having the same conversations we've been having for 2 years and besides.......Dadof3 has been calling me every night for months, inconsolably sobbing about the complete lack of venom on the 00 board. Dad also said your MAMA wears Army boots and he's pretty sure she shot JFK.

I think it's time we rally and return to the good ol' days of outrageous predictions, onion skinned indignation and general pandemonium. I'm thinking something like the food fight scene from Animal House to kick off the Spring Season. I'm thinking you're just the man for the job, that is, unless you've grown old.....and tired......and weak. Heh, heh.

D3 said that?! I guess that begs the question, what is wrong with combat boots? ... Knew that guy had a snobby side... It looks like SG may have slid a few spots in the top 20... As for grown old, tired and weak... Would you call the titanic a row boat, Moby Dick a minnow, or Godzilla a pet lizard?

I get to work on that, I must admit, I'm little behind on the '00's... Who's got injuries from the HS season? I'm also wondering who got into DIGC.

by Guest 21/02/15, 07:01 pm

Well, I was being nice, most of what he said can't be posted on the forum.

Those are the big questions.

by scoregazam 26/02/15, 02:40 am

bwgophers wrote:Ugh. Against my better judgement, but here goes...

The CONCEPT of CPP (as I am defining it), is simply that when you join a club, that club can move your child freely between teams within that club as they see fit, with those decisions hopefully guided by what is in the best interest of your child from a development standpoint. This includes opportunities to play in full-sided games of different types and formats to give your child the appropriate level of competition to enhance their development (scrimmages, tournaments, league games, etc.).

IMPLEMENTATION of CPP refers to RULES put in place by specific sanctioning bodies (NTSSA, LHGCL, PPL, etc.) that place boundaries and limitations on how CPP can be used during competitions that are sanctioned by their organization.

Your issue is with the LHGCL RULE that specifies how CPP can be used in games played in their league. Therefore, under my semantic definition of concept vs. implementation, your issue is with the implementation, not the concept. If you disagree with my definition of concept vs. implementation, then we are arguing over semantics, not content.

You make the following statement earlier in this thread...

"Take all the hypocrisy out of the CPP and simply state that any club can move any player around for any reason as long as they are in the correct age group. THEN it has put morality back into it. The club can move players to WIN games and its ok the rule is explicit in that use."

This statement doesn't modify anything about the concept of a club being able to move players back and forth between rosters. It only modifies the way in which the concept is implemented via the rules that govern it's use.

Based on your above statement, do you have any problem with the following rule regarding the use of CPP?

4.10 CLUB PASS PLAYERS

4.10.1

Competitive teams will be permitted to have club pass players for league
and/or tournament games if specifically allowed by the league or tournament
rules. The use of club pass players shall be in accordance with the following:

1. The club pass player must be a competitive player registered with XX
to another team within the same club.
2. The club pass player may not play down from their own age group.
3. A release from the team to which the player is rostered is not required. It
is up to the club to manage any issues within their
teams/parents/coaches relating to club pass players.
4. Club pass players may practice with the team to which they are scheduled
to player pass.
5. The team and club pass player must follow the rules of the competition,
including but not limited to total numbers of club pass players allowed per
game and/or the number of teams with which a player may compete in a
day, week or event.

4.10.2
Any coach/team utilizing a club pass player outside of these rules or the rules
of the competition will be considered to have played and ineligible player and
will be subject to sanctions/discipline under the rules governing use of an
ineligible player.

I argue that the difference between this CPP rule, and the LHGCL CPP rule, is not in the concept of CPP - they both refer and deal with the ability of a club to move players between rosters, but rather the implementation of limits on when/how CPP can be used.

By the way, have you figured out where this CPP rule comes from yet?

Like BW, I have given up on this argument...... The big clubs have, and always will run LH, and LH seems not to care who uses and abuses the system.

I think your asking the wrong question.... Morals are the principles on which one's judgments of right and wrong are based. I am sure the creators of the rule intended on it to be used in the right way and "In the Spirit of the Game" to promote development, help with injuries, and to give a player a better understanding of where they are in relation to competitiveness amongst their age group. The problem is that the individuals that came up with the rule did not account for the coaches who look for loopholes in rules that might allow their team and their clubs a competitive advantage over another team or club. These coaches that manipulate the rules and bring in "Ringers" to give their team an advantage in league standings when it comes to promotion or relegation have already shown that their morale compass needs to be pimped slapped. Most coaches and parents know who these morally challenged coaches are. Whether you agreed or disagree with them is subjective and depends on where your moral compass points in relation to this topic.

The correct question to ask IMO would be, "Is there any Ethical Value in CPP in its current Implementation?" Again morals are more abstract, subjective and often personal or religious based. Where as ethics are more practical, conceived as shared principles promoting fairness in social and business interactions. Just because something is "legal" doesn't make it ethically right. Lying is legal, but recognized as unethical. Cheating on your spouse is legal, but again most people would find it unethical and morally wrong.

As for the CPP Rule and how LH allows the teams to use it..... Sure its legal according to LH's "Rules", but unethical in LH's interpretation and implementation. But being unethical doesn't seem to bother LH much when it comes to defending what this rule was truly meant for. They have to take into account the coaches and clubs that would use it as a competitive advantage during promotion/relegation. Why? Because it happens! For LH, and the coaches that continue to do it (most know who you are) you have proven that you would put aside your moral compass and ethical principals for your delusional interpretation of a rule that was supposed to be used in a positive way to develop and teach the game.

Again JMO

by CBTeamworks 26/02/15, 11:04 pm

I don't blame the coaches for doing everything within the rules to be competitive. It's their job.

by Midfield6 28/02/15, 02:23 pm

Morality of CPP Rule: Here is where I would see the benefit and should be the intention. LH D2 or D3 team that struggles with number of players (usually multiple sports, lack of commitment - band recital is #1 priority, or an injury). What happens if one of those teams lose their only Goalkeeper and they are in a promotion/relegation...is it fair to punish the rest of the group? IMO that should be the intention and LH would need documentation and approval to allow something like this to happen.

Also, CBTeamworks...the coaches do try to make the teams more competitive probably more due to ego than anything else. Their job = teaching the game to the best of their ability and trying to develop players for the next level...whether that be (higher division, ODP, id2, youth national team and college soccer for those that want to pursue that)...Not to win a game.

by Sponsored content

Join Heath Soccer Academy (Rockwall area)	29/08/24, 10:58 pm	socroc
Join Heath Soccer Academy (Rockwall area)	29/08/24, 11:02 am	socroc
09/10 COMPETITIVE TEAM IN ROCKWALL AREA	17/08/24, 02:26 am	Jumpman
Last call Solar 09/10 Rockwall	22/07/24, 10:48 am	socroc
Last call Solar 09 Rockwall	22/07/24, 10:15 am	socroc
Solar 09 NPL NTX (Rockwall)	15/07/24, 08:15 pm	socroc
Solar 09 NPL NTX (Rockwall)	15/07/24, 06:35 pm	socroc
Solar 09 NPL NTX (Rockwall)	15/07/24, 05:18 pm	socroc
Solar 09 NPL NTX (Rockwall)	26/06/24, 10:29 am	socroc
2008G Dallas Texans Tryouts (Final 1-2 spots)	26/06/24, 10:20 am	Dallas Texans East
2008G Dallas Texans Tryouts	26/06/24, 09:52 am	Dallas Texans East
Solar 07 Spear DII Classic League	25/06/24, 01:42 pm	socroc
Solar 06B RL and DI Classic	25/06/24, 01:34 pm	socroc
RSC 11' GCL w/Coach Adam	23/06/24, 01:15 pm	acst
Oh Yeah! movin' on UP 09's	23/06/24, 09:58 am	acst
Open Practice	20/06/24, 10:00 am	Coach Jim
BvB '06 Gold D-1 Coach Chris Obara formerly with Ayses	17/06/24, 11:18 am	BiroBiro
Renegades 2016G and 2017G North Blanton	16/06/24, 06:30 pm	tareyncarol
FCP Dynamos 2010B - Looking For Players	16/06/24, 05:02 pm	fcpcoach
Solar 2014B Williams - White - Needing 2 more players	09/06/24, 02:39 pm	Marvelousmar
RSC ELITE CAC	09/06/24, 12:10 pm	acst
RSC 08Clark	02/06/24, 05:43 pm	acst
Sting 2011 Boys ECNL RL NTX	02/06/24, 06:17 am	Jumpman
NTX Celtic 2011B ECNL-RL-NTX Opportunity	01/06/24, 11:04 pm	FSFFL
NTX Celtic 06/07G ECNL-RL-NTX Opportunity	01/06/24, 10:49 pm	FSFFL