JDL??

bwgophers wrote:Well, a lot of people predicted and perceived that's what ECNL was going to do/has done, but as I illustrated in a thread last week, the data doesn't back up the perception.

Only time will tell if JDL will be any different.  While "some" have moved to ECNL clubs in direct response to this, "most" running to the ECNL clubs like the sky is falling, is IMO, an exaggeration.

Don't you think ecnl draws a lot of kids from non ecnl clubs already?  Just because spirit or whatever indie it is, still fields a team...it doesn't mean they haven't lost a bunch of players to  Ecnl clubs. My point is....jdl and composite teams dig even deeper into the pool. The real stat in my mind is what percent of say fcd's 04s or 03s were actually developed by fcd or any other ecnl club for that matter.

bw your data didn't even illustrate what you first claimed because you were counting teams instead of players.

CBTeamworks wrote:bw your data didn't even illustrate what you first claimed because you were counting teams instead of players.

I gave you player based numbers in that thread.  Are you seriously under the impression that there are hundreds of players out there who aren't regularly on the 18 player active game-day rosters for ECNL teams that aren't dual-rostered and playing regularly on an LHGCL team?

There are some, but from my direct observation, not that many. Those "some"  equate to small (5% or less) difference in the entire LH + ECNL player pool of those clubs.

Please, go back and do the research yourselves.  Go back and look at the LHGCL standings from 2006-2009 and tell me if it looks like the ECNL clubs dominated the landscape any less than they do today.

Go talk to your coaches, DOC's, neighbors with grown kids, and find the stories of all of the girl's teams from NTX in the 2003-2009 time frame that competed for national titles that weren't from one of the current ECNL clubs and throw it back in my face.  Go find all of the Madison Haley's, Jordie Harr's, Abby Smith's, Chi Ubogagu's, Kerri Hanks', etc.  from the 2000's that didn't play for D'Feeters, or Sting, or Texans.  

I've pi$$ed enough people off on this forum over the years, and not exactly been humble about it, that you would think people would be lining up and throwing all kinds of examples and evidence back in my face to prove me wrong.  However, all I've gotten so far is opinions and conjecture.

Show me some tangible examples to back up the claims, and I'll gladly admit that I was wrong or that my analysis isn't accurately capturing or is skewing the reality.

soccerjack wrote:

bwgophers wrote:Well, a lot of people predicted and perceived that's what ECNL was going to do/has done, but as I illustrated in a thread last week, the data doesn't back up the perception.

Only time will tell if JDL will be any different.  While "some" have moved to ECNL clubs in direct response to this, "most" running to the ECNL clubs like the sky is falling, is IMO, an exaggeration.

Don't you think ecnl draws a lot of kids from non ecnl clubs already?  Just because spirit or whatever indie it is, still fields a team...it doesn't mean they haven't lost a bunch of players to  Ecnl clubs. My point is....jdl and composite teams dig even deeper into the pool. The real stat in my mind is what percent of say fcd's 04s or 03s were actually developed by fcd or any other ecnl club for that matter.

Do you have any evidence that this wasn't the case in the 5-6 years preceeding ECNL? The evidence that I've been able to find suggests that the ECNL clubs were already drawing the lions share of the top players before ECNL. I don't have any data to prove it, but the limited anecdotal evidence I have is that those clubs have always been good at recruiting and accumulating talent developed by others at young ages, when that talent gets to college recruiting age.

bwgophers wrote:

soccerjack wrote:

bwgophers wrote:Well, a lot of people predicted and perceived that's what ECNL was going to do/has done, but as I illustrated in a thread last week, the data doesn't back up the perception.

Only time will tell if JDL will be any different.  While "some" have moved to ECNL clubs in direct response to this, "most" running to the ECNL clubs like the sky is falling, is IMO, an exaggeration.

Don't you think ecnl draws a lot of kids from non ecnl clubs already?  Just because spirit or whatever indie it is, still fields a team...it doesn't mean they haven't lost a bunch of players to  Ecnl clubs. My point is....jdl and composite teams dig even deeper into the pool. The real stat in my mind is what percent of say fcd's 04s or 03s were actually developed by fcd or any other ecnl club for that matter.

Do you have any evidence that this wasn't the case in the 5-6 years preceeding ECNL?  The evidence that I've been able to find suggests that the ECNL clubs were already drawing the lions share of the top players before ECNL.  I don't have any data to prove it, but the limited anecdotal evidence I have is that those clubs have always been good at recruiting and accumulating talent developed by others at young ages, when that talent gets to college recruiting age.

I would agree with what youre saying as far as ecnl already grabbing kids. I'm probably different than most people complaining about  Jdl. The issue I see is on the macro level....the point I was making is the coach that went to fcd, is obviously a great coach, but he developed kids outside of an ecnl club, while that club floundered. Which is the other side of the coin....I would be nervous as a coach also...if you only have a small number of clubs to work for, that offer ecnl...jdl and whatever else they come up with,because when you have customers coming out just because of ecnl or whatever....it marginalizes the talents of a great coach and gives the power to a club. Nothing to do with your stats bw....just my opinion. The play in my opinion is to get them at younger and younger ages which has way more ramifications in the long term.

first off, kudos to the OP for waking this forum up.

second, fwiw, i'm moving my daughter to a JDL team b/c the pool of players she is used to playing in LH D1 will most closely be resembled by JDL teams/league.

soccerjack wrote:

bwgophers wrote:

soccerjack wrote:

bwgophers wrote:Well, a lot of people predicted and perceived that's what ECNL was going to do/has done, but as I illustrated in a thread last week, the data doesn't back up the perception.

Only time will tell if JDL will be any different.  While "some" have moved to ECNL clubs in direct response to this, "most" running to the ECNL clubs like the sky is falling, is IMO, an exaggeration.

Don't you think ecnl draws a lot of kids from non ecnl clubs already?  Just because spirit or whatever indie it is, still fields a team...it doesn't mean they haven't lost a bunch of players to  Ecnl clubs. My point is....jdl and composite teams dig even deeper into the pool. The real stat in my mind is what percent of say fcd's 04s or 03s were actually developed by fcd or any other ecnl club for that matter.

Do you have any evidence that this wasn't the case in the 5-6 years preceeding ECNL?  The evidence that I've been able to find suggests that the ECNL clubs were already drawing the lions share of the top players before ECNL.  I don't have any data to prove it, but the limited anecdotal evidence I have is that those clubs have always been good at recruiting and accumulating talent developed by others at young ages, when that talent gets to college recruiting age.

I would agree with what youre saying as far as ecnl already grabbing kids. I'm probably different than most people complaining about  Jdl. The issue I see is on the macro level....the point I was making is the coach that went to fcd, is obviously a great coach, but he developed kids outside of an ecnl club, while that club floundered. Which is the other side of the coin....I would be nervous as a coach also...if you only have a small number of clubs to work for, that offer ecnl...jdl and whatever else they come up with,because when you have customers coming out just because of ecnl or whatever....it marginalizes the talents of a great coach and gives the power to a club. Nothing to do with your stats bw....just my opinion.  The play in my opinion is to get them at younger and younger ages which has way more ramifications in the long term.

JDL is an idea put together by the coaches of ECNL clubs to improve player development it's as simple as that.

soccerjack wrote:

I would agree with what youre saying as far as ecnl already grabbing kids. I'm probably different than most people complaining about  Jdl. The issue I see is on the macro level....the point I was making is the coach that went to fcd, is obviously a great coach, but he developed kids outside of an ecnl club, while that club floundered. Which is the other side of the coin....I would be nervous as a coach also...if you only have a small number of clubs to work for, that offer ecnl...jdl and whatever else they come up with,because when you have customers coming out just because of ecnl or whatever....it marginalizes the talents of a great coach and gives the power to a club. Nothing to do with your stats bw....just my opinion.  The play in my opinion is to get them at younger and younger ages which has way more ramifications in the long term.

OK.  I have a different opinion, and this time, it's not based on data, but more observation and interpretation.

My opinion is after some initial ripples for the first 1-2 years, it's going to end up balancing out, and the landscape still won't be dramatically different.  Here's why I think that...

1)  Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on how you look at it), I don't think JDL and LHGCL are going to end up being mutually exclusive of one another to a large degree.  I'm already hearing of several plans to pretty much dual-roster teams between JDL and LHGCL.  At a minimum, I think you are going to have a scenario similar to what goes on in LHGCL at U14 where you do have a group of players that are "JDL" exclusive, but you will have many players dual-rostered so that the clubs assure themselves of having D1 byes, and the parents who think that more games is better, or that they will be getting more "value" for their fees because little Abbyalex is playing more games, will be all over it.  Worst case, you will have academy all over again, with just about all of the top teams playing the same roster in multiple leagues, playing 2 or more games every weekend.  The only way I see this changing, is if JDL starts to keep scores, standings, and provides a path towards a regional or national championship like USYSA State Cup/Regionals/Nationals does.

2)  Even if I am wrong about #1, and the JDL teams become exclusive like the ECNL teams are, and aren't playing in LHGCL, you will be more likely to see teams from non-JDL/ECNL clubs fill the LHGCL D1 spots, than you will #3 & #4 teams from the JDL/ECNL clubs.  This is similar to what my analysis of the impact of ECNL has been.  Why is this you say?  Because parents and coaches will find that they would rather be the #1 team at a non-ECNL club, than be the 3rd or 4th team at an ECNL club.  When you are the 3rd or 4th best team in the age group at a club, it doesn't matter how good you are, you are NOT going to get the same attention as the top team or #2 team.  This comes down to things like access/exposure to the best coaches in the club, priority for practice field slots, support for team/coach/club conflict issues.  It also comes down to parent ego... being able to say your kid is on the top team in the club, and having influence, real or perceived, over things related to the team.  In case you hadn't noticed, this is a pretty big deal for some parents, and the larger the fee, the larger the expectation of having input into the team.  When you are a parent on the 3rd or 4th team in the age group at a club, that just doesn't happen.  The club will try to keep you happy to a point, but there will come a point where the club will make it very clear that you and your DD are replaceable, and you either need to deal with it, or take your dissatisfaction elsewhere.

On the contrary, when you are the alpha team at a club, the likelihood that the club will be willing to bend over backwards to accommodate your coach/team/child, goes way up, especially when losing just 1 team has a much bigger impact on the club's bottom line.  There will be some pretty good coaches that will go to smaller clubs for the chance to make a name for themselves and/or have more autonomy in the approach they want to take.  Parents and players will be able to seek those coaches out, especially at the younger ages.

This will help stem the rush to the JDL/ECNL clubs, much like I think it has with ECNL over the past few years.

Now, again, I have NO data or evidence to prove any of this.  This one is purely my opinion based on my experiences over the past 7 years with academy/select soccer in NTX.

So are you saying the idea has nothing to do with money? It can't be all about development when some of the coaches involved are more about recruiting than development.

I hope you're right and you've watched it longer than I have. I just think the wildcard is crazy a$$ parents willing to pay anything like you say to be on the top 1 or 2 teams at a very young age.....and if these new leagues become the catch phrase for these parents...your theory could be thrown out the window. As you say time will tell...I just think there is a real danger of good coaches jumping to these clubs and having their talents diminished because of club control. And as the clubs go younger and younger....you will cut out development, no matter what they claim the goal is. Who hasn't heard that a 10 year old is just not big enough, to play on this top team? This is where common sense and patience gets thrown out the window. Fyi....heard the size comment multiple times from 05 parents..whose kids are looking at "jdl" teams. These kids are no where near done growing. So how is jdl or pre ecnl any different in their recruiting efforts than the teams before that everyone complained about? It's still smash mouth get the biggest kid that can kick it the furthest right now ntx soccer. Only the price just went up. Lol

soccerjack wrote:Only the price just went up. Lol

Did it?  Like I said in my ECNL analysis, at U11 in 2011 I paid $2800 in fees.  Last year, at U15, I paid $2900 in fees.

bwgophers wrote:

soccerjack wrote:Only the price just went up. Lol

Did it?  Like I said in my ECNL analysis, at U11 I paid $2800 in fees.  Last year, at U15, I paid $2900 in fees.

From what I understand the new kid on the block is well over $3k now..someone can correct me if I'm wrong. In most industries you have a big guy that's the price leader that keeps pushing and generally most will follow with time. And btw...I think the true cost of everything in a kit is under $100....but somehow all the clubs charge about $400.

Club fee $3000 + 300 uniform - if you want extra practice gear then yes this figure will grow. Half scholarship $2000 this is at u-15 ECNL

soccerjack wrote:Fyi....heard the size comment multiple times from 05 parents..whose kids are looking at "jdl" teams. These kids are no where near done growing. So how is jdl or pre ecnl any different in their recruiting efforts than the teams before that everyone complained about?  It's still smash mouth get the biggest kid that can kick it the furthest right now ntx soccer. Only the price just went up. Lol

Don't think this is changing anytime soon. Have seen/heard multiple accounts of "pool practices" where kids were split based on height alone it seems. And these are the "top" coaches NTX has to offer. A sad reality that this is the rule. There are obviously exceptions - but size/speed seem to be the name of the game in NTX regardless of the age group.

To be fair - some is environmental...coaches that feel the pressure to win or have another coach "pass them up" at said club, or have their work taken from them and handed to another coach. Parents who want a badge of honor/bragging rights from what level/team their 10/11-yr old kid plays at. Has made a crazy mix.

Some parents will flock to JDL, CL, Pre ECNL whatever it is out of their own pride, some to find competition for their kid, others simply follow the flock. Still comes down to who is coaching your kid, how they're developing as a player/person. That's the part that ain't changing - yet so many will chase those elusive golden calves and unicorns...

Still of the opinion the way NTX clubs are ran needs to be completely blown up. The club doesn't matter, these clubs have multiple teams/kids in the same age group and don't train together or move players in/out, up/down on teams in fear of a coach losing $$$ or another coach "stealing" their players. Let's face it, this isn't in the kids' interests.

It's clubs protecting themselves/interests, coaches protecting themselves/incomes. The kids are the big losers, and parents just pay, pay, pay baby! Sad but true.

Maybe someday a brave soul will step out and build a club that truly is about the kids, their development and refuse to give in to chasing some pipe dream...whether it be JDL, CL, Pre ECNL, ECL or whatever. Though that'll take a special group of parents willing to what's best for the kid end not their own egos as well. Utopia, I know...but can't we dream of what's actually best for the kids?

cobb wrote:

soccerjack wrote:Fyi....heard the size comment multiple times from 05 parents..whose kids are looking at "jdl" teams. These kids are no where near done growing. So how is jdl or pre ecnl any different in their recruiting efforts than the teams before that everyone complained about?  It's still smash mouth get the biggest kid that can kick it the furthest right now ntx soccer. Only the price just went up. Lol

Don't think this is changing anytime soon. Have seen/heard multiple accounts of "pool practices" where kids were split based on height alone it seems. And these are the "top" coaches NTX has to offer. A sad reality that this is the rule. There are obviously exceptions - but size/speed seem to be the name of the game in NTX regardless of the age group.

To be fair - some is environmental...coaches that feel the pressure to win or have another coach "pass them up" at said club, or have their work taken from them and handed to another coach. Parents who want a badge of honor/bragging rights from what level/team their 10/11-yr old kid plays at. Has made a crazy mix.

Some parents will flock to JDL, CL, Pre ECNL whatever it is out of their own pride, some to find competition for their kid, others simply follow the flock. Still comes down to who is coaching your kid, how they're developing as a player/person. That's the part that ain't changing - yet so many will chase those elusive golden calves and unicorns...

Still of the opinion the way NTX clubs are ran needs to be completely blown up. The club doesn't matter, these clubs have multiple teams/kids in the same age group and don't train together or move players in/out, up/down on teams in fear of a coach losing $$$ or another coach "stealing" their players. Let's face it, this isn't in the kids' interests.

It's clubs protecting themselves/interests, coaches protecting themselves/incomes. The kids are the big losers, and parents just pay, pay, pay baby! Sad but true.

Maybe someday a brave soul will step out and build a club that truly is about the kids, their development and refuse to give in to chasing some pipe dream...whether it be JDL, CL, Pre ECNL, ECL or whatever. Though that'll take a special group of parents willing to what's best for the kid end not their own egos as well. Utopia, I know...but can't we dream of what's actually best for the kids?

Actually, that's the model JM built, or tried to build, with Kicks. Funny thing is, people on here constantly rip/ripped Kicks because they move players around between rosters for academy games and tournaments.

bwgophers wrote:I'm just trying to keep perspective.  Kicks and Mustangs certainly have some good teams, just didn't realize they constituted "most" of the non-ECNL teams out there.

Thinking LP, Andro, Tx. Spirit, FWFC, Fever, and others might think differently.  Maybe you will be proven right and several of these clubs and or teams within these clubs will get absorbed as a result of this, but as of today, I feel you are exaggerating the impact a tad.  

Andromeda has announced a merger with Solar.
'Most' running to the big clubs may not be as far fetched as we thought.

soccerjack wrote:I hope you're right and you've watched it longer than I have.  I just think the wildcard is crazy a$$ parents willing to pay anything like you say to be on the top 1 or 2 teams at a very young age.....and if these new leagues become the catch phrase for these parents...your theory could be thrown out the window.  As you say time will tell...I just think there is a real danger of good coaches jumping to these clubs and having their talents diminished because of club control. And as the clubs go younger and younger....you will cut out development, no matter what they claim the goal is. Who hasn't heard that a 10 year old is just not big enough, to play on this top team?  This is where common sense and patience gets thrown out the window.  Fyi....heard the size comment multiple times from 05 parents..whose kids are looking at "jdl" teams. These kids are no where near done growing. So how is jdl or pre ecnl any different in their recruiting efforts than the teams before that everyone complained about?  It's still smash mouth get the biggest kid that can kick it the furthest right now ntx soccer. Only the price just went up. Lol

Hey SoccerJack,

If the info I just got is true and I'm not being punk'd, then it looks like I'm going to have to stand on a table in the middle of the cafeteria and sing at the top of my lungs that I WAS WRONG.

bwgophers wrote:Actually, that's the model JM built, or tried to build, with Kicks. Funny thing is, people on here constantly rip/ripped Kicks because they move players around between rosters for academy games and tournaments.

Thinking that's a bunch of folks who need to look in the mirror. If you're more concerned w/ the roster of other teams than if your kid is developing/being challenged - that may be a sign that you are invested in your ego more than your kids' development/enjoyment.

Appears even JM has buckled to the JDL call. I get it, some of it is protecting your own assets, as the parents may have simply taken those kids to other clubs that have a JDL spot and future ECNL play. Likely forced the hand some. As I stated previously, the environment that has been created makes the kids the real losers in the deal.

Maybe he's able to make a difference at Feet, but I think you have to ask what happens when Hugh comes calling Suzy to ECNL? The same politics take over that we have today. Impressed he's been able to do what he's done w/ his 01's. Again, think it takes a special coach and a special group of parents to see that through.

There are some great coaches littered through the NTX club scene, it's just a shame they have to play the game that is NTX soccer. It could be different...stacking fees to line your pocket vs creating creative players...that's 2 different legacies to leave. Trust me, the latter would be more fulfilling in the end.

Coaches - build kids, not your pocket books.

Parents, let the kids play instead of being played.

flysquirrel wrote:

bwgophers wrote:I'm just trying to keep perspective.  Kicks and Mustangs certainly have some good teams, just didn't realize they constituted "most" of the non-ECNL teams out there.

Thinking LP, Andro, Tx. Spirit, FWFC, Fever, and others might think differently.  Maybe you will be proven right and several of these clubs and or teams within these clubs will get absorbed as a result of this, but as of today, I feel you are exaggerating the impact a tad.  

Andromeda has announced a merger with Solar.
'Most' running to the big clubs may not be as far fetched as we thought.

Yup... Looks like I may have to Eat_These_Nikes over that one...

So LP is the last big club with no USSF or ECNL representation.

bwgophers wrote:

soccerjack wrote:I hope you're right and you've watched it longer than I have.  I just think the wildcard is crazy a$$ parents willing to pay anything like you say to be on the top 1 or 2 teams at a very young age.....and if these new leagues become the catch phrase for these parents...your theory could be thrown out the window.  As you say time will tell...I just think there is a real danger of good coaches jumping to these clubs and having their talents diminished because of club control. And as the clubs go younger and younger....you will cut out development, no matter what they claim the goal is. Who hasn't heard that a 10 year old is just not big enough, to play on this top team?  This is where common sense and patience gets thrown out the window.  Fyi....heard the size comment multiple times from 05 parents..whose kids are looking at "jdl" teams. These kids are no where near done growing. So how is jdl or pre ecnl any different in their recruiting efforts than the teams before that everyone complained about?  It's still smash mouth get the biggest kid that can kick it the furthest right now ntx soccer. Only the price just went up. Lol

Hey SoccerJack,

If the info I just got is true and I'm not being punk'd, then it looks like I'm going to have to stand on a table in the middle of the cafeteria and sing at the top of my lungs that I WAS WRONG.  

Lalalalala. Actually scary how quick it's happening.

soccerjack wrote:

bwgophers wrote:

soccerjack wrote:I hope you're right and you've watched it longer than I have.  I just think the wildcard is crazy a$$ parents willing to pay anything like you say to be on the top 1 or 2 teams at a very young age.....and if these new leagues become the catch phrase for these parents...your theory could be thrown out the window.  As you say time will tell...I just think there is a real danger of good coaches jumping to these clubs and having their talents diminished because of club control. And as the clubs go younger and younger....you will cut out development, no matter what they claim the goal is. Who hasn't heard that a 10 year old is just not big enough, to play on this top team?  This is where common sense and patience gets thrown out the window.  Fyi....heard the size comment multiple times from 05 parents..whose kids are looking at "jdl" teams. These kids are no where near done growing. So how is jdl or pre ecnl any different in their recruiting efforts than the teams before that everyone complained about?  It's still smash mouth get the biggest kid that can kick it the furthest right now ntx soccer. Only the price just went up. Lol

Hey SoccerJack,

If the info I just got is true and I'm not being punk'd, then it looks like I'm going to have to stand on a table in the middle of the cafeteria and sing at the top of my lungs that I WAS WRONG.  

Lalalalala.  Actually scary how quick it's happening.

I'm still going to say let's come back and take a look at this 2-3 years from now. It would be interesting to know if the Solar/Andro deal was being discussed before all of the recent changes were announced and/or to what degree those changes were a catalyst to the deal getting done. Sounds like that merger was at least in part about improved financial stability for the combined entity.

Some of these moves make sense to me, some appear to be knee-jerk, and some appear to be knee-jerk BUT also make sense. I can no longer deny that the pendulum appears to be clearly swinging one-way at this time. However, there are only so many "top" team roster slots, and so many "top" team coaching slots to go around.

It still would not be surprising to me, if after the dust settles, that the pendulum swings back the other way, once many find themselves on the outside looking in at JDL/ECNL spots at the big clubs. Will they stick around to be on the 3rd or 4th team, or search out a spot where they can be the #1 team and call their own shots?

Time will tell...

bwgophers wrote:
It still would not be surprising to me, if after the dust settles, that the pendulum swings back the other way, once many find themselves on the outside looking in at JDL/ECNL spots at the big clubs.  Will they stick around to be on the 3rd or 4th team, or search out a spot where they can be the #1 team and call their own shots?

Time will tell...

This is what I have been saying BW. Maybe what's happening has been in the works for sometime, and is accelerating because of the structural changes being made to base of the pyramid. ECNL alone did not Dribble this kind of movement because there were other credible options for competitive players. Could it actually be better for sake of future players if this consolidation is swift and ferocious?

Suppose USCS completely puts USYS out of business, and gobbles up all clubs and independents.

LH is eliminated, or converted entirely to USCS.

With USYS out of the competitive player market, costs escalate quickly. Enough parents say enough is enough, creating opportunity for something NEW targeting competitive players/families passionate about the game, but who can't or won't make the financial commitment for high dollar, professional coaching at ulittle ages on up.

Over time, this "something new" could/should produce better players, eventually, than the high cost leagues...especially if marketed well, organized well and hyper-focused on the best interests of passionate kids. What we have now has to run its course.

tpitty wrote:So LP is the last big club with no USSF or ECNL representation.

I'm sure once they can iron out who's entitled to the flower money they'll be next.

LP have been trying. Feet and Solar both declined their offer to merge probably with good reason.

bwgophers wrote:

Andromeda has announced a merger with Solar.

Where did you see the Solar/Andro press release? I did not see it on either club site at a casual glance. I had heard about Mustangs/Texans merger.