Are Power Rankings Part of the Problem?

by Guest 03/07/12, 01:26 pm

I like the power rankings on this site, but also find it somewhat hypocritical that we have them. As I understand it, the power rankings are based solely on WINS and LOSSES and are completely objective. There is no subjective component such as how a team plays, style of play, individual player ability. The only thing it tells is who wins the most.

That seems to be in direct contradiction to the lip service offered by most that they only care about development and do not care about winning. Particulary at the 03 level and below. IF that is true, then the power rankings do not tell us ANYTHING about how good a team really is in terms of style of play, coaching ability or the ability to make players better. ( all things we claim to care about at the Academy level).

For Example, do you really think the #1 team in the Power Rankings for the 03's plays the best style of soccer? Do they have the best players? If so, then maybe all that really matters is WINNING.

I enjoy the power ranknigs but I am not hypocritical about it. I do think the most important thing is WINNING and the best teams at the top of the power rankings are teaching the best soccer and have the best coaches. BUt I think I am in the minority and have been blasted for it in the past.

I applaud the work that BwGophers put in to showing us who the best teams are and where we should want our kids to play based upon the power rankings.

Am I wrong here?

by lostntexas 03/07/12, 02:00 pm

THEY DO HAVE THE BEST PLAYERS AND STYLE. OF PLAY...THAT'S. WHY THEY ARE ON TOP..

by Guest 03/07/12, 02:12 pm

lostntexas wrote:THEY DO HAVE THE BEST PLAYERS AND STYLE. OF PLAY...THAT'S. WHY THEY ARE ON TOP..

I fully agree with you. That is why we should worry about WINNING more than those high browed folks on here that claim winning is not important to development. My point is, YES IT IS, and I think the Power Rankings prove just that....

by Guest 03/07/12, 02:25 pm

Firstly, bwgophers prepares the FBRs and scoop99 prepares the Advanced Power Rankings. The FBRs are done for several age groups, but the APRs are just for the 03s. The systems are similar as they not only factor wins losses and ties but also strength of schedule, margin of victory (or loss), and results versus common opponent(s).
The APR involve a certain level of subjectiveness when the initial ranking is created. Then team movement in the rankings is based solely on game results.
More recent results carry more weight.
To the best of my knowledge FBRs are completely objective.
Your point is well taken....neither system measures how much a team has developed or what style of play they utilize, etc. Those teams at the top of rankings have the most skilled players (or a greater number of skilled players) than the other teams. But, why are they the most skilled....well that's best left to discussions like this...because I don't have those answers. The only way to learn 'who the best coaches are' is to experience that yourself thru training, observation, camps, and word of mouth.
This past spring, I was impressed by an 03 team I watched play.
The kids seemed to have a special bond with the coach. They played hard for all 50 minutes...playing up to their level of competition and doing all the little things right. They were ranked #34....they've improved each week and now they are poised to enter the top20. Could they have picked up some talent along the way? Maybe. I don't know. I have not seen them play since April, but I have seen them climb the rankings.
The points is, some teams are not on our radar because we get locked in on the "top teams". But, there may be better instruction going on with those 'middle of the pack' teams than some of the top teams. It's no secret some coaches recruit talent...some have to rely on developing talent.

by Guest 03/07/12, 02:56 pm

scoop99 wrote:Firstly, bwgophers prepares the FBRs and scoop99 prepares the Advanced Power Rankings. The FBRs are done for several age groups, but the APRs are just for the 03s. The systems are similar as they not only factor wins losses and ties but also strength of schedule, margin of victory (or loss), and results versus common opponent(s).
The APR involve a certain level of subjectiveness when the initial ranking is created. Then team movement in the rankings is based solely on game results.
More recent results carry more weight.
To the best of my knowledge FBRs are completely objective.
Your point is well taken....neither system measures how much a team has developed or what style of play they utilize, etc. Those teams at the top of rankings have the most skilled players (or a greater number of skilled players) than the other teams. But, why are they the most skilled....well that's best left to discussions like this...because I don't have those answers. The only way to learn 'who the best coaches are' is to experience that yourself thru training, observation, camps, and word of mouth.
This past spring, I was impressed by an 03 team I watched play.
The kids seemed to have a special bond with the coach. They played hard for all 50 minutes...playing up to their level of competition and doing all the little things right. They were ranked #34....they've improved each week and now they are poised to enter the top20. Could they have picked up some talent along the way? Maybe. I don't know. I have not seen them play since April, but I have seen them climb the rankings.
The points is, some teams are not on our radar because we get locked in on the "top teams". But, there may be better instruction going on with those 'middle of the pack' teams than some of the top teams. It's no secret some coaches recruit talent...some have to rely on developing talent.

I agree that there are some diamonds in the rough with regard to teams that are not on the radar screen and may suprise people. My main thought was that WINNING at this age does in fact mean something. I think many parents fall into the montra of "its all about development" and we don't care about winning, and then scream the loudest when their team is ranked low. I also think the teams that are the best and most developed, are the ones that win the most.

Someone will undoubtedly come along and say, " at the younger ages, one great player with speed can turn you into a numebr one team." To that I say, I don't think so. IF you look at the top 5 teams at the rankings in each age group, they are all well rounded teams.

by the7wolf 03/07/12, 03:16 pm

So, the suggestion is to move away from factual elements such as scores, tournaments, league standings, etc. to a system where a random parent says "my team is #1, my daughter players on it and they rock!"

Hmmm.

by Guest 03/07/12, 03:25 pm

wolf2.0 wrote:So, the suggestion is to move away from factual elements such as scores, tournaments, league standings, etc. to a system where a random parent says "my team is #1, my daughter players on it and they rock!"

Hmmm.

No, just exactly the opposite. I think the objective based rankings are the best way to see who is the best team. Simply by who WINS. My problem is with the folks that claim WINNING and development are mutually exclusive. You have heard them all over this board that claim ( "we focus too much on winning and soccer in AMerica is doomed blah, blah, blah)

I think the rankings show us that the best teams are also the ones that play the best soccer, have the best players and develop the best.

by the7wolf 03/07/12, 03:38 pm

We do focus too much on winning. However, with some of the academy coaches out there offering as much development as playing Angry Birds, you can't trust an even development system across clubs.

In a professional academy system you can assume that the level of coaching is at a very good minimum level so kids within that system are not necessarily limited other than whether they have an option to go play on one of the country or worlds best squads. In NTX, it appears that walking in a somewhat straight line with your knuckles dragging the ground and being able to occasionally turn up to yell "kick it harder gosh doggity diddly dang it!" is enough of a qualification to coach.

So, as much as I'd love a Spanish, French, Italian, German, Japanese, etc. system of development over winning, it's never going to happen here in 'Merica.

by Guest 03/07/12, 03:48 pm

wolf2.0 wrote:We do focus too much on winning. However, with some of the academy coaches out there offering as much development as playing Angry Birds, you can't trust an even development system across clubs.

In a professional academy system you can assume that the level of coaching is at a very good minimum level so kids within that system are not necessarily limited other than whether they have an option to go play on one of the country or worlds best squads. In NTX, it appears that walking in a somewhat straight line with your knuckles dragging the ground and being able to occasionally turn up to yell "kick it harder gosh doggity diddly dang it!" is enough of a qualification to coach.

So, as much as I'd love a Spanish, French, Italian, German, Japanese, etc. system of development over winning, it's never going to happen here in 'Merica.

I agree that some coaches are poor, but not the ones with the top teams, as evidenced by the Power Rankings. We should applaud these coaches as they are doing it right.

Lastly, why would you want to exchange the US girls soccer system for any other Country? The last time I checked the USA has the #1 ranked Womens team in the WORLD.

That would be like the folks in Spain saying we wish our mens soccer program would take an approach more like Japan etc...

by Guest 03/07/12, 04:03 pm

wolf2.0 wrote:We do focus too much on winning. However, with some of the academy coaches out there offering as much development as playing Angry Birds, you can't trust an even development system across clubs.

In a professional academy system you can assume that the level of coaching is at a very good minimum level so kids within that system are not necessarily limited other than whether they have an option to go play on one of the country or worlds best squads. In NTX, it appears that walking in a somewhat straight line with your knuckles dragging the ground and being able to occasionally turn up to yell "kick it harder gosh doggity diddly dang it!" is enough of a qualification to coach.

So, as much as I'd love a Spanish, French, Italian, German, Japanese, etc. system of development over winning, it's never going to happen here in 'Merica.

To the OP, the "power rankings" are irrelevant on numerous levels. It's just a nervous energy outlet for parents who are way too caught up in their own daughters' pasttimes. Sure, I've heard all of the rationalizing that the people who partake in the discussions are "just having fun". BS. They are fixated on select soccer, plain and simple and should go back to work or find hobbies. Now get ready for the responses from those who will once again rationalize ranking little girls who kick soccer balls.

To Wolf, I generally agree with your assessments... although there are in fact quite a few good coaches right here in North Texas despite the obvious hyperbole in the middle paragraph. I would say maybe even 1/3 of them are good coaches. But most of the parents on this board tend to assume that if they are paying a coach who is employed by any of the medium-large clubs, then that coach must have passed some kind of test to be in that position. Hardly. All a coach needs to do anymore is put together a winning team at U10 or under and a club will take the entire lot. No license, no history as a player, no real training system, and no ability to manage a team - no problem. Win, baby, win and people will respect you. Of course, it helps to speak with an accent, too.

by the7wolf 03/07/12, 04:08 pm

RunsLikeWind wrote:
wolf2.0 wrote:We do focus too much on winning. However, with some of the academy coaches out there offering as much development as playing Angry Birds, you can't trust an even development system across clubs.

In a professional academy system you can assume that the level of coaching is at a very good minimum level so kids within that system are not necessarily limited other than whether they have an option to go play on one of the country or worlds best squads. In NTX, it appears that walking in a somewhat straight line with your knuckles dragging the ground and being able to occasionally turn up to yell "kick it harder gosh doggity diddly dang it!" is enough of a qualification to coach.

So, as much as I'd love a Spanish, French, Italian, German, Japanese, etc. system of development over winning, it's never going to happen here in 'Merica.

I agree that some coaches are poor, but not the ones with the top teams, as evidenced by the Power Rankings. We should applaud these coaches as they are doing it right.

Lastly, why would you want to exchange the US girls soccer system for any other Country? The last time I checked the USA has the #1 ranked Womens team in the WORLD.

That would be like the folks in Spain saying we wish our mens soccer program would take an approach more like Japan etc...

Women's soccer is not a big deal in many countries and no one can deny that the other countries that have started to take it more seriously (Japan, Brazil, Sweden, Germany, Mexico, etc.) have caught up drastically in the last 5-10 years. What use to be easy wins for the U.S. are now far from it.

I think we have some great academy coaches in NTX across a number of clubs but we also have a large number who will ensure the U6-U10 age group will have a high percentage of kids who learn nothing other than running after a long-ball randomly toe-punted by Big Bertha from the defense.

by JeffM 03/07/12, 04:22 pm

wolf2.0 wrote:We do focus too much on winning. However, with some of the academy coaches out there offering as much development as playing Angry Birds, you can't trust an even development system across clubs.

In a professional academy system you can assume that the level of coaching is at a very good minimum level so kids within that system are not necessarily limited other than whether they have an option to go play on one of the country or worlds best squads. In NTX, it appears that walking in a somewhat straight line with your knuckles dragging the ground and being able to occasionally turn up to yell "kick it harder gosh doggity diddly dang it!" is enough of a qualification to coach.

So, as much as I'd love a Spanish, French, Italian, German, Japanese, etc. system of development over winning, it's never going to happen here in 'Merica.

At least it's entertaining

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVzW3OGq7kM

by mudhead 03/07/12, 04:45 pm

"Power Rankings" for U6 to U10 girls? And my wife thinks I'm in too deep. Very Happy

by DrSoccer 03/07/12, 04:48 pm

most parents don't realize what a poor job of PLAYER develpment NTX does, esp when your dd is young. If you educate yourself you will soon find that with thousands of kids playing in ntx a very very small number ever play on a ynt, and its often just a fast kid or goalie who make a camp or 2. by the time your dd gets to 16 and you've seen the top talent around the US you will say 'how come our girls don't play like that?' or why does new jersey have so many nat team kids? - But no worries our coaches can still put together a game plan that allows our teams to win... we should be so proud

http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Youth/US-Under15-Girls/Player-Pool/2012-Player-Pool.aspx
http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Youth/US-Under17-Women/Player-Pool/2012-Player-Pool.aspx

by Coach&Ref 03/07/12, 05:14 pm

I think the rankings are amusing and fun, but mostly irrelevant to the real outcome of what a current top "team" will turn out like. Generally, coaches in the U.S.(including foreign coaches working here) are going to get the wins early with the big, fast strong girls in order to get wins and bring in business. As soon as select comes around and puberty starts to hit, the playing field will level out and the girls that weren't "early bloomers" that had to work hard at home and had a good development coach, will be courted by those big clubs. The big, strong, fast girls who weren't developed, because they didn't need to be (why change if what you are doing now works?) will be dumped or relegated to a lower division.

If what I said wasn't the case, then what is the frantic need for tryouts when select season starts? If you are a top team, then why not just take that team intact into select and the rankings should theoretically stay the same. What we see are tryouts, so that clubs and top teams can hopefully bag a couple of "ringers" and cut or demote some of the fringe players. Year after year, the team name may stay the same, but may be almost completely unrecognizable from the 03 top team everyone saw due to how some clubs and coaches approach soccer as a business rather than a game.

Of course, this doesn't apply to ALL situations, but I feel that this is the case in general. Quite a few of those teams that are currently flying under the radar, will do very well when select starts.

by 4-4-2-Diamond 03/07/12, 05:59 pm

Coach&Ref wrote:I think the rankings are amusing and fun, but mostly irrelevant to the real outcome of what a current top "team" will turn out like. Generally, coaches in the U.S.(including foreign coaches working here) are going to get the wins early with the big, fast strong girls in order to get wins and bring in business. As soon as select comes around and puberty starts to hit, the playing field will level out and the girls that weren't "early bloomers" that had to work hard at home and had a good development coach, will be courted by those big clubs. The big, strong, fast girls who weren't developed, because they didn't need to be (why change if what you are doing now works?) will be dumped or relegated to a lower division.

If what I said wasn't the case, then what is the frantic need for tryouts when select season starts? If you are a top team, then why not just take that team intact into select and the rankings should theoretically stay the same. What we see are tryouts, so that clubs and top teams can hopefully bag a couple of "ringers" and cut or demote some of the fringe players. Year after year, the team name may stay the same, but may be almost completely unrecognizable from the 03 top team everyone saw due to how some clubs and coaches approach soccer as a business rather than a game.

Of course, this doesn't apply to ALL situations, but I feel that this is the case in general. Quite a few of those teams that are currently flying under the radar, will do very well when select starts.

Truth.

Anyone who thinks a team's winning record at U9 is a fool-proof indicator of having the best players, coaching and development is... Are Power Rankings Part of the Problem? 206-90

Are Power Rankings Part of the Problem? 206-90

by Guest 03/07/12, 06:40 pm

As a direct result of this discussion, I have decided to include the following disclaimer at the beginning of all of my future FBR Ranking posts. I encourage scoop99 to consider something similar...

***DISCLAIMER***

The FBR Rankings are for entertainment ONLY. Any inference to a quanitification of the quality of soccer played by any of the teams in the rankings is purely conincidental and unintentional. Information as to whether any team plays beautiful possession soccer and flops like Barca, or overpowers their opponents with superior athleticism and Route 1 over the top long balls to little Abbies and Alexes can not be ascertained from the information contained herein. Quality of user experience is known to have a wide variance.

However, extensive scientific and rigorous statistical analysis courtesy of the

Bureau of
Statistics

have shown the FBR rankings to be

Certified
Repeatable
Accuarate and
Predictable.

If a Team Manager, Coach, League Director, or Tourney Director want to use data from the FBR Rankings to identify general groups of teams that have roughly similar combinations of skill and/or athleticism that will result in competitive game situations that will allow for an appropriate environment to foster player development, reliable results are highly likely, but not guaranteed.

by Bigfoot 03/07/12, 10:29 pm

No the rankings are exact. All posters that post ranking are required to use the BCS computer. Everyone has been trained in BCS computer logistics and are fully certified to post rankings.

by Blitzed 04/07/12, 01:04 am

RunsLikeWind wrote:
lostntexas wrote:THEY DO HAVE THE BEST PLAYERS AND STYLE. OF PLAY...THAT'S. WHY THEY ARE ON TOP..

I fully agree with you. That is why we should worry about WINNING more than those high browed folks on here that claim winning is not important to development. My point is, YES IT IS, and I think the Power Rankings prove just that....

Seriously? You actually believe this? About teams made up of 7-9 year old girls?

by bigtex75081 04/07/12, 09:33 am

Power rankings don’t cause problems, it’s the parents that take them too seriously that do.

After a u06 Rec game recently I asked a coach how he felt his team was doing this season. I didn’t ask for any details but he immediately recited the score for that day’s game as well as the other games they’d played that season. He was very proud. His wife came into the conversation about halfway through and added her corrections. They even argued for a couple minutes about the final score for one of the games.

I’m the absolute opposite. I haven’t been able to correctly track a score for years. People don’t even ask me anymore because they realize I’m not going to know. I watch for individual skills (“That was her left foot.”, “That was a nice pullback turn.”) and the flow of the game. My only concern about my DD’s teammates is that she enjoys her time with them.

To each their own... Enjoy your DD’s game however you like to enjoy it. If you tracked the scores during your DD’s u04 games, I imagine you really enjoy the power rankings. If you’re like me, you probably just ignore them.

by bigtex75081 04/07/12, 10:15 am

~~You might be a redneck…~~

You know you take the Power Rankings too seriously if…

If you’ve ever made somebody come to your computer to see where your DD’s team is ranked… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If you’ve ever discussed the Power Rankings with somebody that has no idea what you’re talking about… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If your DD knows where her team is ranked… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If you’ve ever made a long-term decision for your DD based solely on the most-recent version of the power rankings… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

by Guest 04/07/12, 10:24 am

bigtex75081 wrote:~~You might be a redneck…~~

You know you take the Power Rankings too seriously if…

If you’ve ever made somebody come to your computer to see where your DD’s team is ranked… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If you’ve ever discussed the Power Rankings with somebody that has no idea what you’re talking about… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If your DD knows where her team is ranked… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If you’ve ever made a long-term decision for your DD based solely on the most-recent version of the power rankings… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

Brilliance. Especially number 3.

by bigtex75081 04/07/12, 11:16 am

bigtex75081 wrote:~~You might be a redneck…~~

You know you take the Power Rankings too seriously if…

If you’ve ever made somebody come to your computer to see where your DD’s team is ranked… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If you’ve ever discussed the Power Rankings with somebody that has no idea what you’re talking about… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If your DD knows where her team is ranked… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If you’ve ever made a long-term decision for your DD based solely on the most-recent version of the power rankings… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If the Power Rankings have ever made you visibly upset... you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

by KABOOM 04/07/12, 02:19 pm

DrSoccer wrote:most parents don't realize what a poor job of PLAYER develpment NTX does, esp when your dd is young. If you educate yourself you will soon find that with thousands of kids playing in ntx a very very small number ever play on a ynt, and its often just a fast kid or goalie who make a camp or 2. by the time your dd gets to 16 and you've seen the top talent around the US you will say 'how come our girls don't play like that?' or why does new jersey have so many nat team kids? - But no worries our coaches can still put together a game plan that allows our teams to win... we should be so proud

http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Youth/US-Under15-Girls/Player-Pool/2012-Player-Pool.aspx
http://www.ussoccer.com/Teams/Youth/US-Under17-Women/Player-Pool/2012-Player-Pool.aspx

Here is a sure fire way to make sure a top 03 team produces a national team player:

M ake sure to steal one of the best teams
I nstigate fights on other teams
S teal all the top players
S it top players on the bench
I nstigate rumors on top teams
M ake sure to stock up on gas cards
O nly truely care about your daughter

Having 21 girls on your roster is assinine. All your doing is stealing the top players
to make your daughter look better and not be challanged.

by Guest 04/07/12, 03:17 pm

bigtex75081 wrote:~~You might be a redneck…~~

You know you take the Power Rankings too seriously if…

If you’ve ever made somebody come to your computer to see where your DD’s team is ranked… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If you’ve ever discussed the Power Rankings with somebody that has no idea what you’re talking about… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If your DD knows where her team is ranked… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

If you’ve ever made a long-term decision for your DD based solely on the most-recent version of the power rankings… you might just be taking the Power Rankings too seriously.

Genius. I love it.
BTW many of these kids are aware of their team's rank...and that's a problem.
One coach of a top 10 '03 team even reminds his girls each game that they are ranked #????
In North Texas and they need to play like it. Rolling Eyes

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