In Need Of Advice Part II

I have a friend who has a friend who knows somebody who has a daughter playing for a rec team.
This team is coming to LH tourney to try to qualify. A club team is inviting her to play for them and asking her to switch teams and sign up with them. They signed some kind of agreement with the rec team and paid a certain fee. They want to move to the other team because they see a brighter future there since it is one of the big names and this paricular club is offering financial help.
Can they move from the rec team even if they signed an agreement? Can they be released without any
problems? What's the answer?

A contract is a contract, but NTSSA rules are going to supercede much of anything they might have signed. That doesn't mean your friends are off scott-free. On one hand, there is no such thing as "signing to play with a rec team". So in that regard, the player is a free agent and can go sign with an actual select team all the way through January 1 (if I recall the date correctly). All rec players are essentially free agents.

But here's the flipside of the coin. If the contract obligates the parents to certain financial commitments and they signed it, they may very well still be on the hook for the expenses. It's just business, and as such subject to the ruling of a court of law (i.e. small claims court). So if they agreed to pay a coach for the year, pay for equipment, uniforms, et cetera... and then actually signed one of their names to it; well, their daughter can still go play elsewhere. But they might still be paying the amount to which they agreed.

Nooneaskedmebut wrote:
I have a friend who has a friend who knows somebody who has a daughter playing for a rec team.
This team is coming to LH tourney to try to qualify. A club team is inviting her to play for them and asking her to switch teams and sign up with them. They signed some kind of agreement with the rec team and paid a certain fee. They want to move to the other team because they see a brighter future there since it is one of the big names and this paricular club is offering financial help.
Can they move from the rec team even if they signed an agreement? Can they be released without any
problems? What's the answer?

If the team is registered and accepted to play in the Lake Highlands Girls Classic League Qualifying Tournament, then the team can't be a "Rec" team.

To sign up for the LHGCL QT, the team must be registered with NTSSA as Competitive team and have an official NTSSA competitive roster signed by the registrar from a recognized NTSSA member association (i.e. PYSA, CCSAI, GLASA, etc...).

In order to be placed on an NTSSA competitive roster, the player/parents had to fill out and sign an NTSSA Competitive Player Registration form and it had to be submitted to the home association at some point since July 1st, 2012 (a.k.a. "The Contract" that everyone refers to).

If this DD is truly playing for a team that is playing in the QT this weekend, then they are registered with NTSSA as a competitive player and thus are subject to the standard rules for competitive players.

In order to play for another competitive team in any of the "select" leagues this year (LHGCL, PPL, APL), they will need to request a competitive release from their current coach, and that coach will have to agree to it. Otherwise, they can only request a release to go and play in recreational leagues this year, and possibly guest play with another competitive team in tournaments.

Even if their current coach grants them a full competitive release to join another competitive team, they still may not be able to play in LHGCL during the fall season. LHGCL has rules stating that you can't qualify in QT with one team, and then transfer to another LHGCL team until after fall league play is complete. I don't know what the rules are regarding playing for a team that plays in QT and fails to qualify for LHGCL, and then transferring to a team that did qualify.

bwgophers wrote:

Nooneaskedmebut wrote:
I have a friend who has a friend who knows somebody who has a daughter playing for a rec team.
This team is coming to LH tourney to try to qualify. A club team is inviting her to play for them and asking her to switch teams and sign up with them. They signed some kind of agreement with the rec team and paid a certain fee. They want to move to the other team because they see a brighter future there since it is one of the big names and this paricular club is offering financial help.
Can they move from the rec team even if they signed an agreement? Can they be released without any
problems? What's the answer?

If the team is registered and accepted to play in the Lake Highlands Girls Classic League Qualifying Tournament, then the team can't be a "Rec" team.

To sign up for the LHGCL QT, the team must be registered with NTSSA as Competitive team and have an official NTSSA competitive roster signed by the registrar from a recognized NTSSA member association (i.e. PYSA, CCSAI, GLASA, etc...).

In order to be placed on an NTSSA competitive roster, the player/parents had to fill out and sign an NTSSA Competitive Player Registration form and it had to be submitted to the home association at some point since July 1st, 2012 (a.k.a. "The Contract" that everyone refers to).

If this DD is truly playing for a team that is playing in the QT this weekend, then they are registered with NTSSA as a competitive player and thus are subject to the standard rules for competitive players.

In order to play for another competitive team in any of the "select" leagues this year (LHGCL, PPL, APL), they will need to request a competitive release from their current coach, and that coach will have to agree to it. Otherwise, they can only request a release to go and play in recreational leagues this year, and possibly guest play with another competitive team in tournaments.

Even if their current coach grants them a full competitive release to join another competitive team, they still may not be able to play in LHGCL during the fall season. LHGCL has rules stating that you can't qualify in QT with one team, and then transfer to another LHGCL team until after fall league play is complete. I don't know what the rules are regarding playing for a team that plays in QT and fails to qualify for LHGCL, and then transferring to a team that did qualify.

+1

I was trying to figure out the rec team aspect. To play in the QT, the team had to submit an official North Texas competitive roster, on which this player would be listed.

That would keep her from being able to play, at least during the fall season, for another team, for the reasons you suggested.

I don't know for a fact, but I'd guess that it wouldn't matter whether the team is successful in making it into the league. What they're trying to do is keep a team from "borrowing" players to play in the QT that would then go back to another team.

Just my 2¢ worth.

I agree with BW, too. Defining the team as "rec" no longer applies if these parents signed all of the paperwork to basically transform their group into a select team. But that does have me kind of scratching my head in regard to the original post. It sounds like his/her semantics may be wrong, but I'm wondering about the "brighter future" with the big club. That is not necessarily the case. If this previously rec team hired a quality coach, the opportunities could be just as good or better than becoming a Texans-Purple Northeast or Solar-Yellow Prime Meridian. And I would be willing to bet that the incentives the big club is offering still don't equate to a cheap deal. They never do.

Very good points. This rec team I guess has taken it to a higher level and is heading to more competitive and now considered club. They've always competed on rec tournaments and usually stop at around age 12.
Your input is appreciated.

You don't have to be a "club" team to play in LHGCL, PPL, APL, etc... You can be a single, completely independent entity.

You don't have to pay your coach to be a "select" team. There's nothing that prevents a good volunteer parent coach from taking a rec team straight to the "next level".

You just need to follow the NTSSA rules in place to declare and register your team and players as competitive vs. recreational, and know that doing so comes with some different rules regarding when and where they can play.

Heck, if you've got a sponsor or a sugar daddy/momma who is willing to cover all of the team's expenses for the year, none of the parents have to pay a cent to be on a "select" team. It just doesn't happen very often.

Other factors have conspired to give birth to the "big club" system that dominates the select soccer ranks in NTX, but there is nothing in the rules that prevents independents from existing and playing in the system, and nothing that says you must pay your coach to play in this system.

It's really not to hard to figure out which team you're talking about here. They were rec, but in the past 6 months have been promoting themselves as a new, small, independent - yet COMPETITIVE - team. What seems a little nefarious to me is that a big club coach would take advantage of some of the parents on this team, who (by virtue of playing "rec" for all practical purposes for the last few years) may not be as familiar with the rules and politics of recruiting.

This may not be how it happened, but it's easy for me to imagine a big name club coach whispering in the ear of some parent, "Hey, your kid deserves better than a glorified rec team. There's no future here. It probably wasn't a real contract, so ditch them and come play for us." I wouldn't let my dd play for a coach who would stoop to that...they aren't trustworthy. Even if that isn't how it happened, I still wouldn't let my dd play for a coach who did anything even close to that. If it is the team I'm thinking of, they actually are better than many of the lower ranked big club teams, and the coach is decent and a very nice guy. If it were my dd, I would spend this year learning the system and talking to parents who have been around select soccer for a long time. Then I would consider a new home next year, AFTER doing some serious research.

I’m always irritated hearing about situations like this. Situations like this are exactly why independent teams struggle to stay afloat.

The coach of this Rec/Competitive team has invested time and effort into the player. If it wasn’t for this coach’s efforts and dedication to the player, that girl would probably not even have the skill to justify being approached by this other team.

The Rec/Competitive coach has made the effort and given the time without asking for anything in return up to this point. But now… when that coach asks for loyalty (and I do expect that this coach is now depending on this girl for his team in order to make a good showing on the competitive level) the gratitude and loyalty owed to the coach is entirely forgotten by the family. All is forgotten for the most recent Johnny-come-lately wearing a neat polo shirt.

I understand that people need to do what’s best for their child. I respect that but this Rec/Competitive coach seems to be a good fit for this girl. Why change? He’s not settling for Rec, he’s helping them to to the next level as a whole group. He's giving them what they want. That takes a huge commitment from him.

If this family changes because the new club has fancier uniforms or a bigger name… those parents are nothing more than shallow bumper-sticker-chasers.

Don't know the teams or coaches. And just because they are going into the qualifying tournament does not mean that they will be coming out in CL. Many parents are unaware of this whole academy select thing and once they are exposed to it they need to make the best choice for their kid whatever that may be. It is not about loyalty to a coach or a team. Of course just because its a bigger club does not make it a better situation. Research, research, research

Frankly many of these rec teams have little idea how much better these select teams are. Then they go to QT and have to play top 15 teams and are just crushed. Rec teams then find themselves in Plano premier struggling there too. All too common....

bigtex75081 wrote:I’m always irritated hearing about situations like this. Situations like this are exactly why independent teams struggle to stay afloat.

The coach of this Rec/Competitive team has invested time and effort into the player. If it wasn’t for this coach’s efforts and dedication to the player, that girl would probably not even have the skill to justify being approached by this other team.

The Rec/Competitive coach has made the effort and given the time without asking for anything in return up to this point. But now… when that coach asks for loyalty (and I do expect that this coach is now depending on this girl for his team in order to make a good showing on the competitive level) the gratitude and loyalty owed to the coach is entirely forgotten by the family. All is forgotten for the most recent Johnny-come-lately wearing a neat polo shirt.

I understand that people need to do what’s best for their child. I respect that but this Rec/Competitive coach seems to be a good fit for this girl. Why change? He’s not settling for Rec, he’s helping them to to the next level as a whole group. He's giving them what they want. That takes a huge commitment from him.

If this family changes because the new club has fancier uniforms or a bigger name… those parents are nothing more than shallow bumper-sticker-chasers.

Statements and attitudes like that just drive me nuts... Like I owe a coach something into eternity for teaching my daughter. If we never left a coach just because they helped and trained our DDs, we would all still be on our first rec team with our first rec coach that taught her how to do a pull-back.

I appreciate all the coaches my DD has had over the years. Each one has contributed to her growth in different ways. When and if the time comes that we move on and have a new coach, I will look forward to him/her teaching my DD new and different things but I won't ever feel obligated to "stick-it-out" somewhere just because coach did their job that I paid them to do.

"I appreciate all the coaches my DD has had over the years. Each one has contributed to her growth in different ways. When and if the time comes that we move on and have a new coach, I will look forward to him/her teaching my DD new and different things but I won't ever feel obligated to "stick-it-out" somewhere just because coach did their job that I paid them to do." 02Dad

Great point 02Dad! I totally agree with you.

There are some here that take every opportunity to bash the big clubs, the leagues, etc.

There are so many things unknown here, like how long the player has been with this "rec" team. Yet I see the conclusion drawn here that basically the rec coach made her everything she is today, and now relies on her, and she owes him her loyalty. The truth is, she could have joined the team a month ago, and is having second thoughts about it.

Personally, I'm a believer in fulfilling commitments, unless something material has changed, i.e. different coach, fees went up, huge change in the relationship between the player and the coach, and so on. I do believe its distasteful for another coach to try to entice her to break a contract she's only recently signed, but the thought that this girl needs to stay with a coach out of loyalty year after year is a joke.

Each year, you know how it has gone with your existing team. If its time to make a move, do your research and make the decision that is truly in your dd's best interests.

That's where your loyalty really lies. Most coaches are understanding of this, its the mid-season departures that leave a team in a lurch without an easy avenue to recover that really causes the difficulty.

Another note here:

Since the player is on a NTX Competitive Roster, it is against NTX Rules for a Coach to recruit this player for the current soccer year..

02Dad wrote:

bigtex75081 wrote:If it wasn’t for this coach’s efforts and dedication to the player, that girl would probably not even have the skill to justify being approached by this other team.

Statements and attitudes like that just drive me nuts... Like I owe a coach something into eternity for teaching my daughter. If we never left a coach just because they helped and trained our DDs, we would all still be on our first rec team with our first rec coach that taught her how to do a pull-back.

I appreciate all the coaches my DD has had over the years. Each one has contributed to her growth in different ways. When and if the time comes that we move on and have a new coach, I will look forward to him/her teaching my DD new and different things but I won't ever feel obligated to "stick-it-out" somewhere just because coach did their job that I paid them to do.

What if I wrote that sentence in reverse and said, "If it wasn’t for 02Dad’s DD efforts and dedication to the coach, that team would probably not even have had the skill level to justify even being in the QT. But instead 02Dad’s DD got strung along and finally cut a week before QT. Now she and her family are stuck scrambling."

Would that sentence drive you nuts? Or would you switch your stance from "Like I owe a coach something into eternity for teaching my daughter." to "I'm pissed! That coach and that team just completely screwed us!"

If the (illegally?) recruiting club is going to cost less and offer better services, then I get it. Look after your kid first because that is where your real loyalty should be. If the new club is going to cost the same (or more) and offer the same services then I still think this is crooked.

Recruiting to an independent team is a lot harder than recruiting for a larger club. Key players cannot be easily replaced. I imagine this team has entered the QT with the expectation she will be there to help to the point that the coach and the families are depending on her.

My DD played rec in fall of her U11 yr because she thought all her friends were "coming back". After signing, it turned out that 2 of the better players (one BF) were gone. She honored that decision and played a "last hurrah" season then joined a small club for spring (a great decision for her), then joined a bigger club the next year (another good move for her). We have no ill will about any of those decisions and steps along the way. We still have friends in all places.

The best thing to do is to be honest with all parties. No one wants to hear bad news (DD is looking elsewhere), but it is palatable when you know that someone is laying their cards on the table. Even if it is possible to let her out of her commitment, it may not be the best option (for her or the team).

If your rec coach has taken the girls into the QT, then he probably knows how it works, and should know how hard it is going to be to compete. The advice to do what is best for yours is correct, but again do it while honoring your commitment. If these girls are your daughter's friends from school and she has been with them for 5 years of soccer, she probably wants to test the water with them. It will be obvious to you pretty quickly if you need to make a move, but it isn't cool to do it 11th hour when everyone else is going to suffer because you take them down to 13?? players. This is especially true when they took the step in money from rec to select and expected you to be there. I assume that if she is being recruited, that she is one of their better players.

Just my 2 cents.

bigtex75081 wrote:

02Dad wrote:

bigtex75081 wrote:If it wasn’t for this coach’s efforts and dedication to the player, that girl would probably not even have the skill to justify being approached by this other team.

Statements and attitudes like that just drive me nuts... Like I owe a coach something into eternity for teaching my daughter. If we never left a coach just because they helped and trained our DDs, we would all still be on our first rec team with our first rec coach that taught her how to do a pull-back.

I appreciate all the coaches my DD has had over the years. Each one has contributed to her growth in different ways. When and if the time comes that we move on and have a new coach, I will look forward to him/her teaching my DD new and different things but I won't ever feel obligated to "stick-it-out" somewhere just because coach did their job that I paid them to do.

What if I wrote that sentence in reverse and said, "If it wasn’t for 02Dad’s DD efforts and dedication to the coach, that team would probably not even have had the skill level to justify even being in the QT. But instead 02Dad’s DD got strung along and finally cut a week before QT. Now she and her family are stuck scrambling."

Would that sentence drive you nuts? Or would you switch your stance from "Like I owe a coach something into eternity for teaching my daughter." to "I'm pissed! That coach and that team just completely screwed us!"

If the (illegally?) recruiting club is going to cost less and offer better services, then I get it. Look after your kid first because that is where your real loyalty should be. If the new club is going to cost the same (or more) and offer the same services then I still think this is crooked.

Recruiting to an independent team is a lot harder than recruiting for a larger club. Key players cannot be easily replaced. I imagine this team has entered the QT with the expectation she will be there to help to the point that the coach and the families are depending on her.

I'm guessing that this will play out kind of like this: Player stays and then Daddy expects everyone, including the coach, to come running over to him with gifts because he has decided to stay, but makes it known that one slip up by the coach or other players is reason for them to leave. Or....they leave and then Daddy will say "I really stayed out of it, she's the one that kept asking me to take her over to a team that could push her more" because that sounds like something a 10 year old would say (without coaching). I say if they're entertaining another coach with a really cool bumper sticker, then tell them to leave. If things don't go AMAZING during QT they will remind everyone that they could've and should've gone with the Fancy Polo Shirt, English Accent guy that "Pushes" his girls. Of course when she's not playing as much as she would've on her current team Daddy will say that "This is exactly what she needs!" IDIOTS!!

Blah blah blah
You sound bitter

If you need advice for a friend who has a friend who knows somebody who has a daughter playing for a rec team, then you are way too involved in other people's business and need to remove your nose from places it shouldn't be.

90thminute wrote:If you need advice for a friend who has a friend who knows somebody who has a daughter playing for a rec team, then you are way too involved in other people's business and need to remove your nose from places it shouldn't be.

Lol

bigtex75081 wrote:I’m always irritated hearing about situations like this. Situations like this are exactly why independent teams struggle to stay afloat.

The coach of this Rec/Competitive team has invested time and effort into the player. If it wasn’t for this coach’s efforts and dedication to the player, that girl would probably not even have the skill to justify being approached by this other team.

The Rec/Competitive coach has made the effort and given the time without asking for anything in return up to this point. But now… when that coach asks for loyalty (and I do expect that this coach is now depending on this girl for his team in order to make a good showing on the competitive level) the gratitude and loyalty owed to the coach is entirely forgotten by the family. All is forgotten for the most recent Johnny-come-lately wearing a neat polo shirt.

I understand that people need to do what’s best for their child. I respect that but this Rec/Competitive coach seems to be a good fit for this girl. Why change? He’s not settling for Rec, he’s helping them to to the next level as a whole group. He's giving them what they want. That takes a huge commitment from him.

If this family changes because the new club has fancier uniforms or a bigger name… those parents are nothing more than shallow bumper-sticker-chasers.

Loyalty doesn't exist. That's all an illusion in soccer. I learned that a long time ago. It doesn't matter how good you are as a coach. You could be the best development coach in the entire DFW area, but lack the skills to recruit. You will find that those players that had been with you for a couple of years and have subsequently turned into tremendous players, will bail on you because the TEAM as a whole is not at the level that they think their girls should be playing.

The hard truth of the matter is that they are right in a way. It becomes hard to bring in good talent to balance a team and when select starts to come around, the disparity between new kids that haven't had exposure to you and the kids that have been with you since the younger ages is intolerable for parents. Come "crunch time", parents recognize their kids are great and will not stay with the coach that made them that way, but will go to bigger clubs.

I gave up the stressing and heartache associated with loyalty a LONG time ago, especially after a kid I had coached since she was four, whom I had picked up from daycare every day, spent my personal time and money to help out her struggling single mother, ended up backstabbing me before one season and going to a club that MADE HER PAY!

I learned to let that go and maintain a distance with parents, knowing that this was most likely going to happen. This way, when it happened, there would be no emotional investment on my part.

The sick and twisted satisfaction I get is to see the girls that I had developed, completely stagnated or regressed after their parents decided to seek "greener pastures". I feel very sorry for the girls, but not for the parents who got sucked in by the slick, fast talking, "used car salesmen" who parade around as real coaches more concerned with their paychecks than the girls themselves.

you know coach I have seen a coach suggest and help a player find a different team because he felt that it was better for the "player" In the end coach this is not supposed to be about you or mom and dad. It should be all for the kid. This coach worked on a girls skill brought her up and then told her parents that she needed to play at a higher level. You should be happy to see girls that you had a hand in developing go on to do bigger and better things. The only thing that I always say should be there is open communication and honesty. A parent should say if they are looking and why. The coach shouldn't take it personal and address the situation. maybe the girl would be better served playing at a higher level than the team is currently at and these are the coaches that you as a coach feel would be good. Maybe you honestly don't think she is ready for the higher level and may not be able to get enough playtime. But if all of the adults could check their own ego's and think about somebody other than themselves maybe they could come up with the best solution for the team.

Coach & Ref~ I am sorry to say, but you are right in some ways and wrong in others. Loyalty DOES exist. I am sure that if you had a serious talk with the parent/parents and tried to convince them to stay, they would have. There is something to be said for a coach that puts forth the extra effort. I guarantee if our previous coach had of cared enough to talk things out, we would have stayed. Unfortunately, he just didn't take the time or make the effort. I also believe that you should be proud of the kids when they are doing well, even if it is not with you. After all, you taught them! You should also realize that every now and then kids need a different perspective. It is not personal. The family obviously cared for you. Another thing, and please remember this...how you treat the family/child when you see them on the soccer field, when they attempt to talk to you, etc., could determine if they ever come back to you. You obviously had a good relationship with them once, you can again.

It seems that there are a lot of coaches on here whose egos got stepped on when their players went elsewhere. If a player is the top player in a rec program/team and plans to play high school then at U11 it is time for them to move to the next level. If they are not challenged in games or practices, if they are frustrated by the other players lack of skill or effort then it is time to move them. When a parent of one of my players is interested in making the move whether I initiate the discussion or they do I give them honest opinion on their plans or quesions. Sometimes it is yes , the player should go, or no they are not at that level or no not that team etc.. Either way they make their decision I always wish them luck and let them know they can always call me for advice. It does not matter whether I agree or not. I want that player to have a good experience no matter where they go because that is what it is all about.

I take pride in the rec players I have had that go on to be successful in club or high school but know very well that it is them not me that got them there. It is the extra touches at home, the extra effort in practice and games.

Coach&Ref, with over 20 seasons of rec coaching from U7 to U19 I think I am qualified to say that the sick and twisted satifaction you get when your former players falter and fail is just that , sick and twisted, and sad and bitter. It is supposed to be all about the kids, not the parents, not you. Shame on you.