Re: what happen after a good player is released

by DrSoccer 07/02/13, 03:45 pm

tex, agree whole heartedly

by boilerjoe_96 07/02/13, 03:51 pm

Tex,

Over the weekend my U6(she's still 5) was in tears for quite a while for allowing the final PK in(and missing her kick by a foot)....thus losing 2-1 in PKs.

Last year as U5... she knew the score...she knew how many goals she had, and everyone else had...

I doubt my dd is the only one...

That being said I don't disagree with what your message...

by go99 07/02/13, 03:54 pm

Lol I wish her the best. Well almost the best as long as its not select.

by wilatnus 07/02/13, 03:59 pm

bigtex75081 wrote:

Yes there are some who are looking to get their DD on a top 5 team.

What I don't get is why you see that as such a bad thing? Depending on your DD's aspirations and goals, that may be very important to them in acheiving their goals.

Why is that any worse than someone who does not want their DD on a D1 team, but wants to focus on the experience in a less competitive environment?

My honest answer… I don’t like that we insist on applying adult values and sensibilities on a children’s game.

Like winning for example… Have you ever been with a u08 after they lose a game? How long does it take for a u08 to let it go? About as long as it takes for the post-game snacks to be distributed. But who’s still brooding when the family gets in the car? The parents. The parents want to push the issue and get explanations for what went wrong.

Have you ever heard a u05 coach claim that his kids keep score? I have. Have you ever seen a post from a parent insisting that their DD must be on a top-5 team? I have. Have you ever heard a parent claim that their DD would rather sit on the bench to earn her minutes instead of playing in the actual game itself? I have.

Soccer is a game. It’s a game like any other game. It’s intended to be fun. Would you make your DD sit and watch you play Monopoly because she hasn’t earned her playtime yet? Would you make her sign a contract to play Monopoly for the upcoming year? Would you make her accountable for a $2,500 contract if she decided she didn’t want to play Monopoly with you anymore?

We insist on applying an adults’ mindset to a game for children. Is sports a good way to learn about important things in life? Yes, most definitely, but we don’t need to force those lessons down the kids' throats.

I am certainly with you Tex on everything you said when it applies to the academy world. Some nut just asked for gophers to provide FBR rankings to the 07 already. This thread was started in the 02 forum though, so the previous posters questions to you are a little more relevant. Is your issue just with getting a release, or at the end of this season, do you think everyone should stay on the team they are on and just work harder to make it better, regardless of where they finished?

by futbollove 07/02/13, 04:27 pm

Tex,
I certainly agree with just about everything you've said on this subject. But I also don't understand a coaches motivation for not allowing player to walk away wherever they may please. Especially after financial obligations are met. I suspect it has to do with hurting next year's paycheck, i mean roster.

by Guest 07/02/13, 04:44 pm

If a player (parent) wants out and has met their financial obligations then they should be released. Neither the egotistical coach nor the controlling team manager should dictate/recommend where and with whom they can play for next up. They should be granted a full release. It is their prerogative if they chose to play rec soccer or decide to join another competitive team! Everyone has their own reasons for moving on and we should not judge them based on their decision. As far as I am concerned, NTX soccer is a Joke Beyond Repair.

by bigtex75081 07/02/13, 04:54 pm

wilatnus wrote:I am certainly with you Tex on everything you said when it applies to the academy world. Some nut just asked for gophers to provide FBR rankings to the 07 already. This thread was started in the 02 forum though, so the previous posters questions to you are a little more relevant. Is your issue just with getting a release, or at the end of this season, do you think everyone should stay on the team they are on and just work harder to make it better, regardless of where they finished?

My concern is that we've taken a kids' game and morphed it into an adults' game that kids participate in. Because of that, I think you should ALWAYS do what's best for your DD whether it's at the end of the contract or mid-season.

I wonder though, if somebody were to request a competitive release because their DD's team was doing everything right for them EXCEPT winning... Is that parent really operating in their DD’s best interest? Or in their own best interests because they don’t want to be a loser in what has now become an adults’ game that kids just get to participate in?

by go99 07/02/13, 05:15 pm

yes but you are forgeting about the team doing whats best for the player too

by bigtex75081 07/02/13, 05:29 pm

go99 wrote:yes but you are forgeting about the team doing whats best for the player too

No joke! The coach that signs a kid to be the 18th player on their roster. Or a coach that only plays a kid for 5 minutes in a game because it's a “must-win”. That's a perfect example of an adult imprinting themselves on a kids' game. Mutating a child’s game and making the kids into game pieces. Taking a game away from a child and making it theirs instead.

If there were no coaches on the sideline, and there were only two teams of 16 kids managing their own subs (assuming they didn't just say "screw it" and play 16v16 instead) how many of those 32 kids would limit themselves to only playing 5 minutes?

by Tiki-taka 07/02/13, 05:45 pm

kickballrules wrote:If a player (parent) wants out and has met their financial obligations then they should be released. Neither the egotistical coach nor the controlling team manager should dictate/recommend where and with whom they can play for next up. They should be granted a full release. It is their prerogative if they chose to play rec soccer or decide to join another competitive team! Everyone has their own reasons for moving on and we should not judge them based on their decision. As far as I am concerned, NTX soccer is a Joke Beyond Repair.

I have a lot of opinions on this and luckily no direct experience, but one thing I do see in your quote that I want to comment is the role of the manager. As a manager, I don't think it's my business to be involved or controlling with any family on the team. That relationship is purely between the coach and the family/player. As a manager, my goal is to do my best to ensure every player and family have a great experience and presented with multiple opportunities to apply their skills they are learning. I'm being simplistic, but to a lot of coaches, this is a business/income and their reputation, I would not want to insert myself in that relationship. I am enjoying the relationships that I have built with the parents, I wouldn't want to jeopardize those by becoming the decision maker, when that is not the role of the manager (IMHO).

by Lefty 07/02/13, 06:32 pm

bigtex75081 wrote:
go99 wrote:yes but you are forgeting about the team doing whats best for the player too
No joke! The coach that signs a kid to be the 18th player on their roster. Or a coach that only plays a kid for 5 minutes in a game because it's a “must-win”. That's a perfect example of an adult imprinting themselves on a kids' game. Mutating a child’s game and making the kids into game pieces. Taking a game away from a child and making it theirs instead.

If there were no coaches on the sideline, and there were only two teams of 16 kids managing their own subs (assuming they didn't just say "screw it" and play 16v16 instead) how many of those 32 kids would limit themselves to only playing 5 minutes?

I agree with you here. Select/Club soccer is a business to the clubs and coaches pure and simple. It is not about the kids and their best interest, it is about the business. If you accept that then you need to keep your DD's goals, objectives and best interest at the top of your list at all times.

by AbEnd 07/02/13, 06:45 pm

The contract is with the club not the coach. Speaking from a '96, '99 and '05 perspective, coaches can change during the season for many reasons. Good luck getting a release from the club because your favorite coach departs during the contact term.

by Guest 07/02/13, 07:13 pm

Tex I agree with some of your points, but are you on both sides of the fence here? On the one hand you say contracts should only be 6 months because folks should have that freedom to do what's best for their DD, but then you say coaches should be entitled to withhold full releases from fully paid families if they don't agree with their reason for leaving. Can you have it both ways?

And yes soccer is a game. The participation values you suggest are fine for 99% of players who play it.

But for that 1% whose involvement goes well beyond anything comparable to monopoly, you simply cannot apply the same standards. For them it is more than just a game. The same applies at the top levels of just about any competitive endeavor.

by my2cents 07/02/13, 07:22 pm

boilerjoe_96 wrote:
Tex,

Over the weekend my U6(she's still 5) was in tears for quite a while for allowing the final PK in(and missing her kick by a foot)....thus losing 2-1 in PKs.

Last year as U5... she knew the score...she knew how many goals she had, and everyone else had...

I doubt my dd is the only one...

That being said I don't disagree with what your message...

PKs in U6 !!!! If that does not slam the door shut on the discussion of how ridiculous the competitive environment ( multiple league play, contracts etc.)has gotten then nothing will.

by Guest 07/02/13, 07:36 pm

I agree with you here. Select/Club soccer is a business to the clubs and coaches pure and simple. It is not about the kids and their best interest, it is about the business. If you accept that then you need to keep your DD's goals, objectives and best interest at the top of your list at all times.

true but what burns me up is that they have been paid, the kid will not be there, so you have essentially been paid to do nothing going forward but you are so petty that you will not give a full release?

by 1more_dd_dad 07/02/13, 09:08 pm

Just reading some of this and where is the parental accountability. Most parents cannot say they don't know it is a risky deal when their DD is no. 11-16 on a team. So many parents say its about development but the second their DD's team gets relegated, it's like rats off a sinking ship. It goes both ways... Contracts need to be a year long for team stability.

by dallasnorth 07/02/13, 10:19 pm

Many smart people here. I want to give you one more so you can enlighten me. What if i just dont do anything? I dont get release and I dont play. It might be me but it's not in the team best interest to release a player so they can use the spot to replace her? or is a league rule?
Thanks so much ladies and gentlemen for all your info in this matter. I truly appreciated.

by Guest 07/02/13, 10:47 pm

dallasnorth wrote:Many smart people here. I want to give you one more so you can enlighten me. What if i just dont do anything? I dont get release and I dont play. It might be me but it's not in the team best interest to release a player so they can use the spot to replace her? or is a league rule?
Thanks so much ladies and gentlemen for all your info in this matter. I truly appreciated.

The coach/club probably doesn't care one way or another. If you are talking about a team playing in LHGCL, and the roster is currently at 16 (LHGCL Max roster size for U11), they could care less whether they have 15, especially if they have your money already. In fact, at 15, the other parents, players, and coach are probably happier because there is one less player to take up minutes on the field, and unless an available stud player comes around looking (which is not very likely at this point of the season), they don't need the open roster spot that they would get from granting you a release. If the team has less than 16 players, then they already have open roster spots that they could use to add other players, and could care less about granting you a release.

Also, if I am reading the NTSSA by-laws correctly, the time frame for requesting a hearing about a release is Dec 1-Jan 31, so if your coach won't agree to sign the competitive release, I believe you are out of luck for getting anything except a rec release at this point (although I would call NTSSA and verify this).

http://www.ntxsoccer.org/assets/pdfs/North_Texas_Soccer_2012-2013_Bylaws_and_Rules_updated_02-2013.pdf SECTION 3.10.7

by Guest 08/02/13, 08:25 am

1/31/13 is the cut off for hearings is also my understanding. Rhonda at NTSA is the one to work with.

by imasoccerfreak 08/02/13, 06:04 pm

It surprises me that no one has brought this up...what about the players obligation to the other players? When my DD and I signed a contract, we weren't just agreeing to play for x club and x coach...we were agreeing to play with that roster. We had a girl defect this year, too, and it could seriously affect our spring league results. So if the rest of us get screwed in standings because we lost a key player, I'm going to take it personally. Yeah, that's probably not how it should be...I should understand that everybody's DD comes first. But I feel like TEAM should mean something. I don't think our coach should have given her a release at all (I'm not sure what she got). If everybody is allowed to jump ship and the water gets rough, the few who believe in sticking to their promises are the ones who pay the price.

by CharlieSheen's Brain 08/02/13, 07:43 pm

imasoccerfreak wrote:It surprises me that no one has brought this up...what about the players obligation to the other players? When my DD and I signed a contract, we weren't just agreeing to play for x club and x coach...we were agreeing to play with that roster. We had a girl defect this year, too, and it could seriously affect our spring league results. So if the rest of us get screwed in standings because we lost a key player, I'm going to take it personally. Yeah, that's probably not how it should be...I should understand that everybody's DD comes first. But I feel like TEAM should mean something. I don't think our coach should have given her a release at all (I'm not sure what she got). If everybody is allowed to jump ship and the water gets rough, the few who believe in sticking to their promises are the ones who pay the price.

WINNING!

by Packrabbit 09/02/13, 03:22 am

Question: They played with the coach since academy, but he only displayed his complacency during qualifying? I get it if your kid isn't playing, the coach misled you about your personal circumstances on the team, is a drunk--, anything that presented recently that represents a hostile or unhealthy envirnoment. Further confusion: since when does a 10 yr old get to decide to quit something she starts (or inform a parent of whom she is , or isn't, going to play for)? If she's mature enough to be allowed to make that decision, then she should be wise enough to understand the consequences. Point is, it wasn't the dd decision, but the parent's... As in, "young lady, you will finish what you start..". In any event, the parent approved of the child's "complacency" complaint.

The team that wants her now will wait until April 1-- early release date... Call NTX, they will walk you through it-- Good luck- I hope the next coach is a better fit for your dd.

by DrSoccer 09/02/13, 07:31 am

Charlie, dont worry about the team, there was some kid on the bench who will get a chance to improve her game now that the superstar has left the building.

by go99 09/02/13, 08:49 am

imasoccerfreak wrote:It surprises me that no one has brought this up...what about the players obligation to the other players? When my DD and I signed a contract, we weren't just agreeing to play for x club and x coach...we were agreeing to play with that roster. We had a girl defect this year, too, and it could seriously affect our spring league results. So if the rest of us get screwed in standings because we lost a key player, I'm going to take it personally. Yeah, that's probably not how it should be...I should understand that everybody's DD comes first. But I feel like TEAM should mean something. I don't think our coach should have given her a release at all (I'm not sure what she got). If everybody is allowed to jump ship and the water gets rough, the few who believe in sticking to their promises are the ones who pay the price.

Now take a player who doesn't want to be there, becomes disruptive, and could really care less about your results because they won't be there next season. Believe me you are better off moving them on. Now I believe unless the situation is harmful the life lesson is finish what you atart. The tough part of youth sport is that while it is a team sport it is first and most important a individual one. You must do what is best for you as a player to get better. Teams, coaches come and go and the only thing that will matter is how good you are as an individual player.

by imasoccerfreak 12/02/13, 12:36 pm

go99 wrote:
imasoccerfreak wrote:It surprises me that no one has brought this up...what about the players obligation to the other players? When my DD and I signed a contract, we weren't just agreeing to play for x club and x coach...we were agreeing to play with that roster. We had a girl defect this year, too, and it could seriously affect our spring league results. So if the rest of us get screwed in standings because we lost a key player, I'm going to take it personally. Yeah, that's probably not how it should be...I should understand that everybody's DD comes first. But I feel like TEAM should mean something. I don't think our coach should have given her a release at all (I'm not sure what she got). If everybody is allowed to jump ship and the water gets rough, the few who believe in sticking to their promises are the ones who pay the price.

Now take a player who doesn't want to be there, becomes disruptive, and could really care less about your results because they won't be there next season. Believe me you are better off moving them on. Now I believe unless the situation is harmful the life lesson is finish what you atart. The tough part of youth sport is that while it is a team sport it is first and most important a individual one. You must do what is best for you as a player to get better. Teams, coaches come and go and the only thing that will matter is how good you are as an individual player.

Well, if that player was MY kid, I would be lecturing her ear off about accountability to your teammates. I would show her what happens when the MOMMY stops doing things her family expects (and needs) to really drive that lesson home. And there would be consequences for her blowing off her obligation to do her best because that's what is expected of her. I would hug her when she cried about hating it, and I would work with the coach to make it better for her, and I would help her count down the days to her contract end. But I would NOT let her quit the team OR quit giving 100%. And yes, I kind of expect that from the other players - and their parents - on my team.

by yea..yea..whatever 12/02/13, 04:10 pm

imasoccerfreak wrote:
go99 wrote:
imasoccerfreak wrote:It surprises me that no one has brought this up...what about the players obligation to the other players? When my DD and I signed a contract, we weren't just agreeing to play for x club and x coach...we were agreeing to play with that roster. We had a girl defect this year, too, and it could seriously affect our spring league results. So if the rest of us get screwed in standings because we lost a key player, I'm going to take it personally. Yeah, that's probably not how it should be...I should understand that everybody's DD comes first. But I feel like TEAM should mean something. I don't think our coach should have given her a release at all (I'm not sure what she got). If everybody is allowed to jump ship and the water gets rough, the few who believe in sticking to their promises are the ones who pay the price.

Well, if that player was MY kid, I would be lecturing her ear off about accountability to your teammates. I would show her what happens when the MOMMY stops doing things her family expects (and needs) to really drive that lesson home. And there would be consequences for her blowing off her obligation to do her best because that's what is expected of her. I would hug her when she cried about hating it, and I would work with the coach to make it better for her, and I would help her count down the days to her contract end. But I would NOT let her quit the team OR quit giving 100%. And yes, I kind of expect that from the other players - and their parents - on my team.

Freak: It's all about you huh? You must be a person that the world revolves around. A player left, so poor you. That player had probably, at this point, already paid their dues...something must have been pretty serious to not continue.

You're saying nothing would cause your dd to leave? What about a coach that touches your daughter(yes that kind of touching)? Probably would pull her huh? What about physical abuse? Pull her then? Probably. Those lines are pretty clear, any reasonable parent would run. What if coach made aggresive advances to you? You say no and DD doesn't play? Now what about a curse filled screaming including F-Bombs(02 forum so assuming dd is 11 or so)? pull her? What if screaming was limited to 'you played like $h*t'? Where you draw the line with what is best for your daughter may not be where another parent would draw the line. There are a million what ifs/situations and who knows what happened to cause this. So poor you, for that parent doing what they think best for their dd, and the nerve of you for objecting to it. A pathetic life you must lead.

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