advancement

Gunner9 wrote:

dadof3 wrote:Without knowing rosters, it is impossible for me to tell if anyone dual rosters. I know that the ECNL teams will draw players, but by the way I read it, a club could choose to keep their LH slot regardless of whether or not that team forms...For example, in D3 this year we saw a PPL2 team (Galaxy) move into a vacated club spot for a disbanded team without qualifying...

I will use the Texans as an example, but it works for ANY club...

By this rationale, let's say that Texans top team (D1#3) basically becomes their ECNL team...The next Texans team (D2#10) could move into the D1 spot vacated by the ECNL departure...The next Texans team (D3#7) could move into the D2 spot, then another Texans team could take the D3 spot...all that would do is leave another hole in the QT...

I know people have told me I am wrong, and that there will be 5 moving out, and 5 moving up as the cards fall...so what do I not see??

LHGCL is pretty clear in their bylaws: if a team registers for a non-NTSSA league (this would mean ECNL), the club forfeits the bye.

Yes, I read that too, and it may be a moot point-in which case I am merely entertaining myself...but if it isn't the "team" that goes ECNL, say in Sting's case, since there are 4 in D1, 2 in D2, and 2 in D3...couldn't they keep all their byes? or is that somehow linked to the coach??

[quote="dadof3"]totalsoccer-

From what I understand, you could take a completely new team and fill the club spot though...(that was at least the rumor about Galaxy on these hallowed boards?!?) So what keeps clubs from doing it at D1 with ECNL?

Sting could have a couple from each of their D1 teams and still maintain several

Larger club maintain their LHGCL with a ECNL bid by having more than one team in div 1

I guess it would probably only be an issue with a club like Sting which could draw from 4 D1 rosters (plus tryouts) for their ECNL roster, yet still fill in holes created with players from either lower Sting teams or players from other teams...Probably the other 4 would be a primary roster from the top D1 team...just playing what if??

Thanks

Hi Dad, let me see if I can explain the wonder that is ECNL vs LH.

The ECNL team of each club can (and will) try to take the best players they can with them - either the girls on their D1 team, girls from sister teams, or dual rostered girls from other clubs. The standard number of players allowed on an ECNL team would be a max of 25, however they normally do not keep more than 18 on their active roster. If they choose a total of 25 the additional seven plus will be dual rostered either on a sister club team or another club team. The dual rostering in this scenario means that the girls will be playing on their current teams until, and, or if they are called up to play on the ECNL team.

These girls might never be called, could be called up once and play a little, or could be called up to replace a player. This also means that if your DD chooses to be dual rostered, she could be called up as a back up and sit on the bench the entire game. If it is an out of state meet then you would have paid for hotel, food and whatever else for it.

(You will also have some girls who opt off the ECNL team due to costs, etc.)

Now let's move on to your scenario.

Normally, the top club team in Division 1 will be (is) the ECNL team. They can (if you have watched the practice postings) look for additional players from any club. The D2 team could not take the Division 1 slot because the Division 1 slot is forfeited once the D1 team leaves for ECNL. The D2 team would stay a D2 team unless they wind up in the top five to advance to D1.

Unless the Texans North D3 team is in the top five, they will not (cannot) move up to D2. Just expect that there will be a number of teams looking for players come May and June when the ECNL Club teams take their pick and boogie.

THopefully, this has totally confused you and we can start a new discussion on the merits of ECNL.

dadof3 wrote:totalsoccer-

From what I understand, you could take a completely new team and fill the club spot though...(that was at least the rumor about Galaxy on these hallowed boards?!?) So what keeps clubs from doing it at D1 with ECNL?

Sting could have a couple from each of their D1 teams and still maintain several D1 rosters...right?

dadof3,
I think I see your point. The teams for ECNL do not need to come from LHGCL and since the big 5 can send any roster of players to ECNL what would stop a club(I'll use your example)like Sting from building a new team from the strongest of DI and DII players and promote the strongest players from DIII and even PPL to backfill the upper division teams? Essentially creating a new ECNL team and retaining all of their DI byes. Isn't there a rule about the percentage of rostered players required to retain a bye? Or is that just for switching clubs as a team? Just my 2cents

The large club is not concerned about their LHGCL bid when forming their ECNL team.

I had these same questions last year. Here is the key part to your scenario;
2.)a. If a club registers a team for a non-North Texas league, without that team also playing in a regularly scheduled Division of Lake Highlands Girls Classic League they will lose the bye most closely associated with the group of girls leaving the league. For example, if the majority of the girls are leaving from Division I, a Division I Bye will be forfeited by that club in each applicable age group.

The only way the club could keep their bye would be if that team plays LH as well as ECNL. And from my understanding, ECNL doesn't allow for that. And as TS stated, the club isn't concerned with their LH bid at that point anyway.

Actually, Bleed, you are right about the club using any players for the ECNL team. They will cherry pick players. However, they would not create a new ECNL team out of what is left. There is one ECNL group per age group that moves on and out of LH. They don't create a new one when they leave. What they normally have is a premier team left in D1 BUT ONLY IF the premier team was in D1 to begin with. So if there are two Sting Teams in D1, out of those two, there will be an ECNL team and a premier team (or elite or whatever designation they make). The ECNL team could consist of players from the top Sting team (destined to become the ECNL) and the premier team. It could also have players from any other Sting team in LH depending on what they want in players.

If you check out the junior ecnl events, you will see the future Club 00 girls ECNL teams. The players on those teams could change at the end of the spring season but those will be the ECNL teams. As to the teams left behind, they could pull players from sister teams to fill their rosters.

Again, the Club ECNL team that pulls out of LH does not keep its bye, essentially the bye goes bye bye. (Sorry couldn't resist) This isn't like a normal bye situation in LH. Each ECNL club will have an ECNL team by age group. Next year it will be the 01 girls turn.

The holes these teams leave when they move out of ECNL are filled by the upward movement by Division 2 teams.

I know it feels as if it should be more complicated, but it really isn't.

Or if a club, let's just say Sting again, were to bring in a team from another club, and make that team their ECNL team, then the club could retain their LH spot, with the team that was previously at the club.

futbollove wrote:I had these same questions last year. Here is the key part to your scenario;
2.)a. If a club registers a team for a non-North Texas league, without that team also playing in a regularly scheduled Division of Lake Highlands Girls Classic League they will lose the bye most closely associated with the group of girls leaving the league. For example, if the majority of the girls are leaving from Division I, a Division I Bye will be forfeited by that club in each applicable age group.

The only way the club could keep their bye would be if that team plays LH as well as ECNL. And from my understanding, ECNL doesn't allow for that. And as TS stated, the club isn't concerned with their LH bid at that point anyway.

That would make sense for the 5 clubs excepting Sting...They could still maintain N+1 on EACH of their D1 teams by sliding 4 or 5 players to their ECNL team, but the 12-13 that were left would still be Sting M, R, WR, H?? Right?? The 5 that left one of those squads to go to the ECNL team could be replaced by tryouts or call ups from lower division teams.

I think there will be 5 teams gone to ECNL, but as I look at it, there could be only 4 as Sting could choose to go another route...4 legit Sting teams in D1 who were still made up of 70% of their players from the past season...who would tell them no??

I do agree that it is a little far-fetched, but fodder for talk nonetheless. oh, and I am not with Sting, but is seemed an interesting question.

totalsoccer wrote:The large club is not concerned about their LHGCL bid when forming their ECNL team.

You may be right, but if those same clubs want as many teams as they can in D1, then D2 etc, so why wouldn't they pursue this angle. The large clubs (and I don't mean this antagonistically) don't suddenly grow disinterested in the money provided the club by their membership on more teams.

dadof3 wrote:

totalsoccer wrote:The large club is not concerned about their LHGCL bid when forming their ECNL team.

You may be right, but if those same clubs want as many teams as they can in D1, then D2 etc, so why wouldn't they pursue this angle. The large clubs (and I don't mean this antagonistically) don't suddenly grow disinterested in the money provided the club by their membership on more teams.

The large club seem to be able to maintain their d1and d2 status within LHGCL with their success of their other divisions east, west and north filling these spots.

O.K. Hate to interject facts into the middle of a good conspiracy theory...

Here is what happened the past 2 years regarding promotion/relegation from U13 to U14...

For the '98's:

The top team from the 5 ECNL clubs left LH D1 to go play ECNL at U14.
One D1 Team (Solar Gold) when POOF.
The 3 remaining U13 D1 teams returned to play D1 at U14.
The top 6 teams from U13 D2 got promoted to U14 D1.
LH expanded D2 & D3 from 9 teams in 2010-2011 to 10 teams in 2011-2012
The 3 remaining U13 D2 teams returned to play D2 at U14.
The top 7 U13 D3 teams got promoted to D2 at U14
The remaining 2 U13 D3 teams returned to play D3 at U14.
8 "New" teams entered D3 at U14 (I'm assuming via the QT, but haven't verified this).

For the '99's:

4 teams left D1 to play ECNL (Top Texans, Solar, FCD, & Sting teams)
1 D1 team (Solar Bones) went POOF
Remaining 4 U13 D1 teams returned to play D1 at U14.
Top 5 U13 D2 teams were promoted to U14 D1.
1 team (D'Feeters) left D2 to play ECNL at U14.
4 remaining U13 D2 teams returned to play D2 at U14.
6 teams from U13 D3 were promoted to U14 D2 (1-5 + 7th place U13 teams).
6th place U13 D3 team was a Texans team, they did not get promoted. Not sure if they folded. Looks like another Texans team took their place in D3 at U14, but not sure if that was from a "bye" or via the QT.
Other 6 U14 D3 spots were filled by "new" teams, assuming via QT.


I do not see ANY situations where one of the ECNL clubs moved one of their teams from LHGCL to ECNL without relinquishing their D1 bye. All of the D1/D2 promotions from U13 to U14 were based DIRECTLY on the U13 final standings.

bwgophers wrote:O.K. Hate to interject facts into the middle of a good conspiracy theory...

Here is what happened the past 2 years regarding promotion/relegation from U13 to U14...

For the '98's:

The top team from the 5 ECNL clubs left LH D1 to go play ECNL at U14.
One D1 Team (Solar Gold) when POOF.
The 3 remaining U13 D1 teams returned to play D1 at U14.
The top 6 teams from U13 D2 got promoted to U14 D1.
LH expanded D2 & D3 from 9 teams in 2010-2011 to 10 teams in 2011-2012
The 3 remaining U13 D2 teams returned to play D2 at U14.
The top 7 U13 D3 teams got promoted to D2 at U14
The remaining 2 U13 D3 teams returned to play D3 at U14.
8 "New" teams entered D3 at U14 (I'm assuming via the QT, but haven't verified this).

For the '99's:

4 teams left D1 to play ECNL (Top Texans, Solar, FCD, & Sting teams)
1 D1 team (Solar Bones) went POOF
Remaining 4 U13 D1 teams returned to play D1 at U14.
Top 5 U13 D2 teams were promoted to U14 D1.
1 team (D'Feeters) left D2 to play ECNL at U14.
4 remaining U13 D2 teams returned to play D2 at U14.
6 teams from U13 D3 were promoted to U14 D2 (1-5 + 7th place U13 teams).
6th place U13 D3 team was a Texans team, they did not get promoted. Not sure if they folded. Looks like another Texans team took their place in D3 at U14, but not sure if that was from a "bye" or via the QT.
Other 6 U14 D3 spots were filled by "new" teams, assuming via QT.


I do not see ANY situations where one of the ECNL clubs moved one of their teams from LHGCL to ECNL without relinquishing their D1 bye. All of the D1/D2 promotions from U13 to U14 were based DIRECTLY on the U13 final standings.

BW,
You are correct. I was simply stating HOW a club could keep their bye in LH

Ok, so, NO on cloning new players!?!

Thanks bwgophers, InaB, it helps to hear it from firsthand experience, I'm stepping back from the ledge.

Blasted Gophers...thanks for throwing cold water on a good conspiracy! I know you are correct, but I still think they could, just that they WON'T...especially now that I have foiled their evil plot! lol.

Anyway, thanks for keeping me off task this afternoon...Looking at advancement possibilities with half the season to go is probably bad anyway. Kinda crazy that in both years the 7th place D3 team was promoted...makes this thread seem a little odd now.

Dadof3: In my mind, dual rostering is a separate issue from club byes. It can provide a coach a great deal of flexibility in developing players and interested players (or parents) a pathway to ECNL. If memory serves, each ECNL club is allowed 26 roster spots and can take 18 to an event. I can think of no reason why a coach would want 26 active players on his/her squad to start the season, and the headache that would bring, having 8 players stay home every week.

Tactically, each ECNL club's remaining LH team(s) will (should) become it's "developmental" squad (in Sting's case, it'll have a AAA, AA, A, B3, B2... I lost count... But with a field that large, how much "visibility" can a dd get?) where the coach can move players UP and/or DOWN for various reasons. Instead of cutting or benching an athletic D3 "prospect" until she catches up to Ecnl ball speed, the coach can put the player on the development squad where she will actually play in matches (who gets better sitting on the bench?) and "pull" her up later ...

Hi Pack, you are right on the dual rostering. I checked and actually each ECNL team can roster a total of 30 players. However, the average number of players on the five clubs U14 teams this year is 23.

Again, there will be empty spots on a number of LH teams once the ECNL teams have been formed. This will provide opportunities for girls wanting to move up. It also, as you said, gives the coaches and girls who don't make ECNL right away, an opportunity to improve their skills and move up.

There is only one ECNL team per club (not multiple) per age group year (starting with U14), so there won't be additional ECNL teams for the 2000 girls for each club.


And again, you are correct that once the split happens, the remaining club teams will provide a learning and training avenue for girls to move up to ECNL.

Not every girl who is offered the opportunity to play in ECNL will do so. It is a bigger committment in time and money (although I know people say it is comparable). There are out of area and out of state meets and it isn't just the cost of the player. If the parent or parents go with their DD, it quickly adds up in costs. So there will be many parents and players who will have to decide if a) they can afford it, b) do they want to afford it, c) do they need to spend the money elsewhere, etc.

ECNL does afford a better audience for a girl's talents, higher ranked colleges use ECNL meets to look for future prospects.

However, girls get into colleges without it, so it is ultimately up to you and your DD as to whether the additional work your DD will have to expend and the additional money you will have to expend is worth it.

InaB wrote:Hi Pack, you are right on the dual rostering. I checked and actually each ECNL team can roster a total of 30 players. However, the average number of players on the five clubs U14 teams this year is 23.

Again, there will be empty spots on a number of LH teams once the ECNL teams have been formed. This will provide opportunities for girls wanting to move up. It also, as you said, gives the coaches and girls who don't make ECNL right away, an opportunity to improve their skills and move up.

There is only one ECNL team per club (not multiple) per age group year (starting with U14), so there won't be additHional ECNL teams for the 2000 girls for each club.


And again, you are correct that once the split happens, the remaining club teams will provide a learning and training avenue for girls to move up to ECNL.

Not every girl who is offered the opportunity to play in ECNL will do so. It is a bigger committment in time and money (although I know people say it is comparable). There are out of area and out of state meets and it isn't just the cost of the player. If the parent or parents go with their DD, it quickly adds up in costs. So there will be many parents and players who will have to decide if a) they can afford it, b) do they want to afford it, c) do they need to spend the money elsewhere, etc.

ECNL does afford a better audience for a girl's talents, higher ranked colleges use ECNL meets to look for future prospects.

However, girls get into colleges without it, so it is ultimately up to you and your DD as to whether the additional work your DD will have to expend and the additional money you will have to expend is worth it.

Hi InaB- I apologize for my poorly writing skills & assumed everyone spoke fluent packrabbit:

What I was unsuccessfully referring too, was that each club with ECNL status (5 in NT) could have multiple "developmental squads" for each clubs's ECNL team. Sticking with the multiple Sting examples posted earlier (combined with a failed attempt at humor), I was unclearly addressing that Sting's minor league system (AAA-3B) for its ECNL team might not provide the best "visibility" for players aspiring to play ECNL (as opposed to a club with 1 or 2 development squads).

Wow, I was unaware that ECNL had increased roster sizes to 30-- I heard it was a rule (proposed by larger clubs) under consideration, but did not know they had passed it. So now, you have 10 girls' parents paying dues sitting home on game day?

Packrabbit wrote:

InaB wrote:Hi Pack, you are right on the dual rostering. I checked and actually each ECNL team can roster a total of 30 players. However, the average number of players on the five clubs U14 teams this year is 23.

Again, there will be empty spots on a number of LH teams once the ECNL teams have been formed. This will provide opportunities for girls wanting to move up. It also, as you said, gives the coaches and girls who don't make ECNL right away, an opportunity to improve their skills and move up.

There is only one ECNL team per club (not multiple) per age group year (starting with U14), so there won't be additHional ECNL teams for the 2000 girls for each club.


And again, you are correct that once the split happens, the remaining club teams will provide a learning and training avenue for girls to move up to ECNL.

Not every girl who is offered the opportunity to play in ECNL will do so. It is a bigger committment in time and money (although I know people say it is comparable). There are out of area and out of state meets and it isn't just the cost of the player. If the parent or parents go with their DD, it quickly adds up in costs. So there will be many parents and players who will have to decide if a) they can afford it, b) do they want to afford it, c) do they need to spend the money elsewhere, etc.

ECNL does afford a better audience for a girl's talents, higher ranked colleges use ECNL meets to look for future prospects.

However, girls get into colleges without it, so it is ultimately up to you and your DD as to whether the additional work your DD will have to expend and the additional money you will have to expend is worth it.

Hi InaB- I apologize for my poorly writing skills & assumed everyone spoke fluent packrabbit:

What I was unsuccessfully referring too, was that each club with ECNL status (5 in NT) could have multiple "developmental squads" for each clubs's ECNL team. Sticking with the multiple Sting examples posted earlier (combined with a failed attempt at humor), I was unclearly addressing that Sting's minor league system (AAA-3B) for its ECNL team might not provide the best "visibility" for players aspiring to play ECNL (as opposed to a club with 1 or 2 development squads).

Wow, I was unaware that ECNL had increased roster sizes to 30-- I heard it was a rule (proposed by larger clubs) under consideration, but did not know they had passed it. So now, you have 10 girls' parents paying dues sitting home on game day?

I think we may be getting a little caught up in the numbers. Looking at the rosters for the ECNL teams, average roster size is significantly below the maximum allowed. Considering the injuries that occur, the players that quit, and the players that may be dual rostered on a LHGCL team and used for injury replacement, it's possible that most of these teams have no more than 18 players ready on any given game day, let alone having "10 girls' parents paying dues sitting home on game day".

U-14
FCD 26
Sting 20
Texans 26
Feet 22
Solar 21

U-15
FCD 21
Sting 19
Texans 20
Feet 19
Solar 21

U-16
FCD 22
Sting 20
Texans 22
Feet 18
Solar 19

U-17
FCD 21
Sting 20
Texans 21
Feet 19
Solar 19

U-18
FCD 24
Sting 21
Texans 18
Feet 18
Solar 19

It is not worth the time if you are not within the top 18

Ballhead/total soccer: agreed.

So theoretically, a team could have 30 players on an ECNL team roster thereby allowing an ECNL team to dual roster some or all of it's players to participate in their LHGCL teams. 30 players on an ENCL roster would allow an ECNL team to alternate taking players to games, maybe 15-18 at a time, which would help with LH scheduled games for players on dual rosters.
Whatever becomes, I can't wait to see the upcoming ENCL freshman class take the fields. The North Texas girls are going to give em' hell!

InaB wrote:Hi Pack, you are right on the dual rostering. I checked and actually each ECNL team can roster a total of 30 players. However, the average number of players on the five clubs U14 teams this year is 23.

Again, there will be empty spots on a number of LH teams once the ECNL teams have been formed. This will provide opportunities for girls wanting to move up. It also, as you said, gives the coaches and girls who don't make ECNL right away, an opportunity to improve their skills and move up.

There is only one ECNL team per club (not multiple) per age group year (starting with U14), so there won't be additional ECNL teams for the 2000 girls for each club.


And again, you are correct that once the split happens, the remaining club teams will provide a learning and training avenue for girls to move up to ECNL.

Not every girl who is offered the opportunity to play in ECNL will do so. It is a bigger committment in time and money (although I know people say it is comparable). There are out of area and out of state meets and it isn't just the cost of the player. If the parent or parents go with their DD, it quickly adds up in costs. So there will be many parents and players who will have to decide if a) they can afford it, b) do they want to afford it, c) do they need to spend the money elsewhere, etc.

ECNL does afford a better audience for a girl's talents, higher ranked colleges use ECNL meets to look for future prospects.

However, girls get into colleges without it, so it is ultimately up to you and your DD as to whether the additional work your DD will have to expend and the additional money you will have to expend is worth it.

Uh, InaB, we are discussing U13 girls soccer -- it's not like we are discussing the other little, insignificant sports (baseball, football, basketball, etc)--of course, ECNL is worth the add'l money, time and effort to participate! Please!

BleedFutbol wrote:So theoretically, a team could have 30 players on an ECNL team roster thereby allowing an ECNL team to dual roster some or all of it's players to participate in their LHGCL teams. 30 players on an ENCL roster would allow an ECNL team to alternate taking players to games, maybe 15-18 at a time, which would help with LH scheduled games for players on dual rosters.
Whatever becomes, I can't wait to see the upcoming ENCL freshman class take the fields. The North Texas girls are going to give em' hell!

A bit of a problem with that many dual rostered.

1. You would have to get them spread out among several LH teams and/or convince LH to schedule teams with dual rostered players around the ECNL schedule. Max LH roster is 18 (far less than 30) until U-16, then its 22. If you don't get a workaround from LH on scheduling, you would leave your LH team shorthanded. It's doubtful you would get full rosters on the LH teams (see 2 & 3 - these apply to LH teams as well) And convince a player that they are good enough for D-I, but we need you to play on our D-II/III team so we don't gut our D-I team with call ups.

2. Just win, baby. The ECNL coaches are going to want to the best on the field each game. Dual rostering is great for injuries, etc. but beyond the handful needed for that, dual roster would probably be in name only.

3. Who wants to be player #30? Most LH teams don't max their rosters because parents/players value the playing time, and will go elsewhere if the believe they are player 18/22, and most coaches don't want to worry about extensive subs (most will leave the lesser players on the bench, especially when a game is tight.)

The above get more applicable as the kids get older.

JeffM wrote:

BleedFutbol wrote:So theoretically, a team could have 30 players on an ECNL team roster thereby allowing an ECNL team to dual roster some or all of it's players to participate in their LHGCL teams. 30 players on an ENCL roster would allow an ECNL team to alternate taking players to games, maybe 15-18 at a time, which would help with LH scheduled games for players on dual rosters.
Whatever becomes, I can't wait to see the upcoming ENCL freshman class take the fields. The North Texas girls are going to give em' hell!

A bit of a problem with that many dual rostered.

1. You would have to get them spread out among several LH teams and/or convince LH to schedule teams with dual rostered players around the ECNL schedule. Max LH roster is 18 (far less than 30) until U-16, then its 22. If you don't get a workaround from LH on scheduling, you would leave your LH team shorthanded. It's doubtful you would get full rosters on the LH teams (see 2 & 3 - these apply to LH teams as well) And convince a player that they are good enough for D-I, but we need you to play on our D-II/III team so we don't gut our D-I team with call ups.

2. Just win, baby. The ECNL coaches are going to want to the best on the field each game. Dual rostering is great for injuries, etc. but beyond the handful needed for that, dual roster would probably be in name only.

3. Who wants to be player #30? Most LH teams don't max their rosters because parents/players value the playing time, and will go elsewhere if the believe they are player 18/22, and most coaches don't want to worry about extensive subs (most will leave the lesser players on the bench, especially when a game is tight.)

The above get more applicable as the kids get older.

All very good points. Thanks for the insight.