Club Pass Players

4-3-3 wrote:All the d2/d3 parents are super vocal about this rule because they're concerned clubs will abuse it and affect their kids' chances for promotion to a higher league. Throwing around development as a concern is smoke screen...most the comments are only focused on potential impact to who wins or loses the game.

In the context of individual players (not teams and w/l standings), if players can play up, they should also be able to play down. Though their parents aren't nearly as vocal, for every d2/d3 kid that is being sent to a higher level, a kid already there is about to lose minutes. Development is not ALWAYS about playing better comp...sometimes a kid needs to play weaker comp to build confidence, technique, slow the game down, etc.

And my read on the age group requirement was that if you had a younger player rostered up on a older team, they cannot club pass back down to their own age group...but that was me reading between lines as I couldn't see any other reason LH would need to restate an existing rule within the club pass language.

I agree with every comment in this and believe the intention of the rule is valid (I know it's hard to believe that I agree with you on something-), but this rule will be abused for the purpose of a lower team gaining credibility as a team, avoiding relegation or earning promotion, etc., and more then I think people realize. Why? because teams tend to fall apart when they get relegated and pick up stronger players when they get promoted. And a coach's ego and empty wallet will override all logical thinking as to the true intention of this rule being in place.

I mean, everyone has experience with it form the academy days when it was considered "the norm". And now at the select level teams will do it in tournaments to give the appearance that their team is better then actual league results indicated to try and attract better players. You think there are teams that don't "borrow" from their higher-level sister teams already for King Tut or Puma Cup so they can appear better then their team really is to earn that higher seed in QT? Happens all the time. Not only that, but I can see where the "can only play in one game per day" stipulation gets ignored. As several posters have said, there is no real accountability on this to the teams that do abuse the rule or disregard the stipulations surrounding it.

Get real people..................It's been going on for a while, both within the rules in tournament play and "under the radar" for league play (no, I have no hard evidence, but there's enough to suspect it). This just makes it legal for teams to do it, and they will.

I would hope rosters are scrutinized more and some after the fact check is performed with potential forfeits occurring for the violaters.

All LH cares about is the big clubs, who could blame them. They big clubs pay the bills and have the pull when it comes to getting what they want or need.
LH just continues to massage the Sac of the big boys.

I agree with all of the pitfalls of what others have said, but I don't think a couple of things have been mentioned.

This could be a "make or break" for a team/parent if a coach uses a ringer(s) for a tough game(s). Imagine if a starting forward on a team is good (for that division of play) and a ringer comes in and takes that spot because she is better. The forward might get benched or have significantly reduced playing time. This might send the forward's parents over the edge and jeopardize the return of that pretty decent player, just for one or two tough games.

In the positive sense, having that rule with other teams in a big club can help a player/parents, who are not happy with their current contract or situation. This could allow the club to keep the player by moving her to a different team where there might be a better fit.

So, how does this ruling impact player movement between say a D3 team in LH and their sister club in PPL? Can a PPL dd play up to D3 in LH? I doubt PPL would allow a D3 dd to play down in their league.

I think PPL already stated they would not be adopting this rule.

jsullivan81 wrote:I think PPL already stated they would not be adopting this rule.

That's the only smart decision PPL ever made.   

Half-Caff wrote:So, how does this ruling impact player movement between say a D3 team in LH and their sister club in PPL? Can a PPL dd play up to D3 in LH? I doubt PPL would allow a D3 dd to play down in their league.

PPL doesn't recognize the rule. So there will be no player passing to a PPL team, period.

However, LHGCL will allow a PPL kid to 'player pass' to a team in any of the LHGCL divisions as long as she's age eligible (and on another team in the club of course)

Do we really think the ref's will be validating rosters on a weekly basis? What is the plan for enforcement? Self-policed?

honor system   

jsullivan81 wrote:Do we really think the ref's will be validating rosters on a weekly basis? What is the plan for enforcement? Self-policed?

Yup... Hell hath no fury like the wrath of an NTX soccer Mom scorned... especially the one who's DD just got benched in favor of the illegal club pass player...

SolarPower00 wrote:

Half-Caff wrote:So, how does this ruling impact player movement between say a D3 team in LH and their sister club in PPL? Can a PPL dd play up to D3 in LH? I doubt PPL would allow a D3 dd to play down in their league.

PPL doesn't recognize the rule. So there will be no player passing to a PPL team, period.

However, LHGCL will allow a PPL kid to 'player pass' to a team in any of the LHGCL divisions as long as she's age eligible (and on another team in the club of course)

So lets say Andromeda FC 02 wants to make a surge in D3 and really push to make it into D2 by finishing 1st place then they can call Andromeda West in Plano to borrow a forward, mid-fielder, defender, whomever, etc... to solidify their chances in a critical game? Granted all parties would have to be in agreement.    This should make things interesting towards the end of the season. Luckily LH put in the stipulation of allowing only 1 player to "guest" in the last three games.

That is an excellent example. I'm not saying that it will happen, but it could. Andro W has at least 5 players that are ready for LH right now. I could give you their jersey #'s. They have 3 that would start on most LHD1 teams.

Rooney13 wrote:All LH cares about is the big clubs, who could blame them. They big clubs pay the bills and have the pull when it comes to getting what they want or need.
LH just continues to massage the Sac of the big boys.

Then explain why LHGCL took away the D1 bye of the 5 ECNL Clubs when ECNL changed to it's current format?

That move alone took money away and allowed more "smaller clubs" into the League...

And it IS NOT a Lake Highlands rule. It is a NTX rule. Almost every other place in the Country aleady does it. This is a case of NTX catching up with the times and keepin up with the Jones' come Regional time....

jsullivan81 wrote:Do we really think the ref's will be validating rosters on a weekly basis? What is the plan for enforcement? Self-policed?

Coaches and managers have access to opponent's roster for each game. In many cases, the coaches and players know, or will recognize other teams' players. And many games are recorded (video). If a strong player tries to slip in unnoticed, without being on the roster, or not wearing the correct number, it will be obvious in most cases.

intrinsic wrote:

jsullivan81 wrote:Do we really think the ref's will be validating rosters on a weekly basis? What is the plan for enforcement? Self-policed?

Coaches and managers have access to opponent's roster for each game. In many cases, the coaches and players know, or will recognize other teams' players. And many games are recorded (video). If a strong player tries to slip in unnoticed, without being on the roster, or not wearing the correct number, it will be obvious in most cases.

I believe Gotsoccer notes club pass players on the game roster.

soccersounder wrote:

Rooney13 wrote:All LH cares about is the big clubs, who could blame them. They big clubs pay the bills and have the pull when it comes to getting what they want or need.
LH just continues to massage the Sac of the big boys.

Then explain why LHGCL took away the D1 bye of the 5 ECNL Clubs when ECNL changed to it's current format?

That move alone took money away and allowed more "smaller clubs" into the League...

And it IS NOT a Lake Highlands rule. It is a NTX rule. Almost every other place in the Country aleady does it. This is a case of NTX catching up with the times and keepin up with the Jones' come Regional time....

Totally separate issues IMO.  We are talking about league play......This could have a serious impact on if a team is relegated on promoted.  There are Division in LH for a reason.  Generally is supposed to have something to do with the level of play and level of competition.  When a team during league play pulls 3 ringers down to a lower division it has a heavy impact on the level of play and competition.  If we could trust the coaches to do this with the correct intentions (development, playing time, and building of confidence) that would be awesome.  No one here is dumb enough to believe that this will be the case.

The ECNL side you have a top team from a large club playing against other top teams from other clubs in their respective region.  The level of competition and play are already high with such teams.  It should be the best that club has to offer playing against regional competition.

Moving 3 ECNL players down to a D3 team to help with promotion or prevent relegation during league play is not what is best when it comes to keeping the league competitive, and fair. We have divisions for a reason. So teams of similar ability can compete on a regular basis with the hope of improving and reaching the teams max potential. Not so an average D2 or D3 team can look like top of the table D2/D3 team for a couple games just so they can stay up or not move down. Especially when other teams (independents) don't have the same ability to do so!

DISCLAIMER:  I am repeating what I've heard from a reliable source and do not have any first hand knowledge on this subject.

As someone pointed out on the '01 thread, Club Pass System can be a powerful tool for ECNL clubs if they do/will not have a LH D1 team after their top team leaves for ECNL.  While ECNL players do not need the Club Pass System to play on LH teams, an ECNL club could use the Club Pass System to ensure that they have a LH D1 team after they move their top team to ECNL.

I've heard that most ECNL teams carry rosters as big as 28 and they need teams on LH D1 teams where many of these players could be dual-rostered and get quality game playing opportunities since many ECNL players do not get much playing time on ECNL matches.  If they are already assured of having a LH D1 team, nothing needs to be done.  If they have a LH D2 team, they could use the Club Pass System to get that team promoted to D1 (or acquire a D1 team from a non-ECNL club).

Jae...As you mentioned in your post, ECNL players already dual roster in LH. In your scenario where a club is without a d1 team at u14 and up, they could dual roster their entire ECNL side as the d2 or d3 team if they wanted....no club pass needed.

My guess is the players getting solid minutes in ECNL aren't going to want to play d2/d3 lake highlands games just to help the club earn a LH promotion, and the ones who aren't getting solid ECNL minutes aren't so far ahead of LH players that they'd make a massive impact on the outcome of those games.

I still think the impact of the club pass rule is being oversold.

4-3-3 wrote:Jae...As you mentioned in your post, ECNL players already dual roster in LH. In your scenario where a club is without a d1 team at u14 and up, they could dual roster their entire ECNL side as the d2 or d3 team if they wanted....no club pass needed.

My guess is the players getting solid minutes in ECNL aren't going to want to play d2/d3 lake highlands games just to help the club earn a LH promotion, and the ones who aren't getting solid ECNL minutes aren't so far ahead of LH players that they'd make a massive impact on the outcome of those games.

I still think the impact of the club pass rule is being oversold.

Yes, the conspiracy theorists are out in force on this one.

If you go to the websites for the NTX ECNL clubs and look at the ECNL rosters, you will find that the average roster size of the 25 current NTX ECNL teams is 20 players.  FC Dallas does have a roster of 25, a roster of 28, and a roster of 29, but FC Dallas also lists stats for all of their ECNL players, and on the roster of 25, 5 players have played 2 or fewer games out of 20, on the roster of 28, 7 players have not played a single game, and on the roster of 29, 10 players have played 2 or fewer games out of 12.  So, in reality, those FC Dallas rosters are really only ~20 players and the others are ECNL players in name only, and are likely dual-rostered on LH D1 teams, and in reality, only playing in LH.

FC Dallas currently has a D1 team in every age group of LH from U14-U17.
Sting currently has a D1 team in every age group of LH from U14-U17.
Solar currently has a D1 team in every age group of LH from U14-U16.
Texans currently has a D1 team in U15 & U17.

So, outside of 3 FC Dallas teams that do appear to be bloating their ECNL rosters with dual-rostered players (who, as the data shows, are really ECNL players in name only), the ECNL clubs aren't sharing large numbers of players between ECNL and D1 rosters, even though every opportunity is already there to do so.

So if the clubs aren't dual-rostering large numbers of players now, why would the player pass rule change their approach to this?

Great theory Jae, but, no data to support it.

I think your "conspiracy theorist" have every right to be concerned. I think you are naive you think a team, coach or club wouldn't allow 3 ringers to drop down to a lower level team to keep that team from being relegated or help with promotion.

People that easily dismiss this more than likely have DD playing on a large club where this would be beneficial to your team giving you an unfair advantage over smaller clubs and independents. LH did you a solid!

The ones that have the problem are the ones who know their unfortunate jailhouse shafting....is coming. The game when a smaller club or independent is playing that larger club team and you know your not playing that D2 or D3 team. You playing a D2 or D3 team with a couple D1 ringers to help them promote.

Believe me when I say I don't blame the big clubs..... I would love the advantage if I were y'all. But it will be easy to pick out the coaches with no stones who value their teams promotion or relegation so much that they are to guttless to go into that game that matters with HIS 16. Instead they will put 8 of his players on the field with 3 studs from D1. But luckily its built into the LH rules. And we can blindly call this form of cheating cool words like "development".

I agree with both points made in response to my post. However, since I obviously did not make my point clear, I will try again.

My point was mainly for '01s. When ECNL clubs' top '01 teams leave LH next year to play ECNL, Solar, FC Dallas, and D'Feeters will not have LH D1 teams next year based on current standings and current situation. Also, based on their U14 ECNL team roster sizes of 27. 27. 27, 24, and 22, I am assuming that they are likely to have similarly large roster sizes for their '01 ECNL teams. So, I am also assuming that they would like to have LH D1 teams, as opposed to LH D2 or D3 teams, next year on which to dual-roster some/many of their ECNL players to give them quality match playing opportunities.

My point is that Solar and FC Dallas should use the Club Pass System this year to ensure that their current LH D2 teams get promoted to LH D1 next year, and that D'Feeters should acquire a team that will be in LH D1 next year. Solar and FC Dallas could also acquire but since they have LH D2 teams and since Club Pass System is in place, they do not have to acquire. I am not suggesting that they are or they will do what I am suggesting (no conspiracy theory here). I am merely suggesting they could and they should.

jae wrote:I agree with both points made in response to my post.  However, since I obviously did not make my point clear, I will try again.

My point was mainly for '01s.  When ECNL clubs' top '01 teams leave LH next year to play ECNL, Solar, FC Dallas, and D'Feeters will not have LH D1 teams next year based on current standings and current situation.  Also, based on their U14 ECNL team roster sizes of 27. 27. 27, 24, and 22, I am assuming that they are likely to have similarly large roster sizes for their '01 ECNL teams.  So, I am also assuming that they would like to have LH D1 teams, as opposed to LH D2 or D3 teams, next year on which to dual-roster some/many of their ECNL players to give them quality match playing opportunities.

My point is that Solar and FC Dallas should use the Club Pass System this year to ensure that their current LH D2 teams get promoted to LH D1 next year,  and that D'Feeters should acquire a team that will be in LH D1 next year.  Solar and FC Dallas could also acquire but since they have LH D2 teams and since Club Pass System is in place, they do not have to acquire.  I am not suggesting that they are or they will do what I am suggesting (no conspiracy theory here).  I am merely suggesting they could and they should.

And this thinking proves my point to be even stronger. Maybe Lake highlands will see this post and not be blind and stupid to the fact. If a parent can see this, what makes you think the coaches and DOC's from the big clubs can't. Awesome..... use those club pass players just as envisioned by LH for "developmemt". Yea.... development of a league where every team is called Texans, Solar, FCD or Sting. Promote the big clubs!!!!! Genius LH..... Who would of saw this coming?

Jae.... In no means am I knocking on you. Just LH and the Mo-Ron's who think this wont be taken advantage of! I am glad that you at least see both sides of it because LH can't

jae wrote:I agree with both points made in response to my post.  However, since I obviously did not make my point clear, I will try again.

My point was mainly for '01s.  When ECNL clubs' top '01 teams leave LH next year to play ECNL, Solar, FC Dallas, and D'Feeters will not have LH D1 teams next year based on current standings and current situation.  Also, based on their U14 ECNL team roster sizes of 27. 27. 27, 24, and 22, I am assuming that they are likely to have similarly large roster sizes for their '01 ECNL teams.  So, I am also assuming that they would like to have LH D1 teams, as opposed to LH D2 or D3 teams, next year on which to dual-roster some/many of their ECNL players to give them quality match playing opportunities.

My point is that Solar and FC Dallas should use the Club Pass System this year to ensure that their current LH D2 teams get promoted to LH D1 next year,  and that D'Feeters should acquire a team that will be in LH D1 next year.  Solar and FC Dallas could also acquire but since they have LH D2 teams and since Club Pass System is in place, they do not have to acquire.  I am not suggesting that they are or they will do what I am suggesting (no conspiracy theory here).  I am merely suggesting they could and they should.

O.K. Let's see how those scenarios would play out...

FC Dallas:

FC Dallas doesn't have an '01 team in D2, so unless they are going the acquisition route, they won't have a D1 team in U14 next year.

They better start sending the Grubbies down to Pratt quickly, because there's a good chance they won't have a team in D2 next year either.

Of course, to do so, Grubb would have to deplete his bench of 3 players for most of his games this Spring (or pray for a very wet spring), as Pratt only has 2 games this spring that are on days when Grubb doesn't have a game.  Do you think Grubb (or any D1 coach for that matter) is going to be willing to do that?  ...and if Grubb did lend some players to Pratt this past Sunday, it didn't exactly bring about the intended result as Pratt lost to NTX Strikers.

Solar:

Now, I have it on very good authority that Solar White actually DID use 2 club pass players this past Saturday.  I'm assuming they were both from Bates, but can't say for certain.  One of those players was a keeper, and is a legitimate injury replacement for SW's regular keeper who broke her arm in Michael Brown (a good use of the player pass rule).  Not sure what the reasoning was behind the other club pass player, but again, if it was to try and move SW up the standings, it didn't exactly work as SW still lost 0-3 to Tx. Spirit North.

Bates/Guim are in the same boat as Grubb/Pratt, as Guim only has 2 more games this spring that are on days when Bates doesn't play, so Bates (who's in a dogfight with Kicks to be U13 Grand Champion) would have to shorten his bench to try and help out a team that has yet to win a game in D2 this year and has to find a way to climb over 4 teams in just 8 games, to claim a spot in D1.  I'm thinking Bates isn't going to be giving up his bench for that.


Not to mention that, being brutally honest, Pratt and Guim's current rosters aren't exactly loaded with ECNL caliber players. So even if you get those teams into D1 and D2, where are all of the ECNL (or D1 caliber players for that matter), going to come from? I don't exactly see a bunch of D1 or better talent flocking to these teams to either play on a completely new roster, or to play on a roster with a mix of non-D1 talent (in case you hadn't noticed, teams generally attract players of similar talent level to what is currently on their roster, and teams with a huge disparity of talent within their roster don't tend to stay together for very long). All for the hope that their DD may get a sniff of the grass on the ECNL pitch for a few minutes?

jae wrote:I agree with both points made in response to my post.  However, since I obviously did not make my point clear, I will try again.

My point was mainly for '01s.  When ECNL clubs' top '01 teams leave LH next year to play ECNL, Solar, FC Dallas, and D'Feeters will not have LH D1 teams next year based on current standings and current situation.  Also, based on their U14 ECNL team roster sizes of 27. 27. 27, 24, and 22, I am assuming that they are likely to have similarly large roster sizes for their '01 ECNL teams.  So, I am also assuming that they would like to have LH D1 teams, as opposed to LH D2 or D3 teams, next year on which to dual-roster some/many of their ECNL players to give them quality match playing opportunities.

My point is that Solar and FC Dallas should use the Club Pass System this year to ensure that their current LH D2 teams get promoted to LH D1 next year,  and that D'Feeters should acquire a team that will be in LH D1 next year.  Solar and FC Dallas could also acquire but since they have LH D2 teams and since Club Pass System is in place, they do not have to acquire.  I am not suggesting that they are or they will do what I am suggesting (no conspiracy theory here).  I am merely suggesting they could and they should.

Player pass rule won't have an impact on what happens with ECNL, other then some players not wanting to come down and help out their sister teams for fear of injury (as some have stated already). The ECNL impacts for having a D1 team next year will come from team/player movement across clubs.

Not to continue the '01's highjacking this thread, but the easier solution (and you will see this happen) for the '01 FC Dallas, Solar, and 'Feet would be to just go and make a bunch of promises to teams that will be D1 next year so they'll change clubs. Core of the ECNL team gets formed with the best of both teams, players from the D1 team that were NOT going to be with an ECNL club now have opportunity to play ECNL, you've got your extra players with D1 dual rostering. Much easier for a club to make empty promises then to an entire team to pull them over then to try and get promoted through player pass rule. Think about the '01 teams that will be D1 next year with ECNL potential already as a team and have several high-level ECNL capable players - Andromeda, Spirit, Rush, Kicks (SC & Gold) to name the most obvious. Guarantee D'Feeters are trying like hell right now to pull one of those teams over for next year. Remember what Pulp did last year with his teams??? My guess that same thing will happen with either Andromeda or Rush, or one of the Sting teams will bail and go elsewhere because of saturation of teams limiting players potential to be added to ECNL roster (Hilton, Angell, or Guzman).

Take note '02s...........................same will happen to you next year.

me?obsessed? wrote:

jae wrote:I agree with both points made in response to my post.  However, since I obviously did not make my point clear, I will try again.

My point was mainly for '01s.  When ECNL clubs' top '01 teams leave LH next year to play ECNL, Solar, FC Dallas, and D'Feeters will not have LH D1 teams next year based on current standings and current situation.  Also, based on their U14 ECNL team roster sizes of 27. 27. 27, 24, and 22, I am assuming that they are likely to have similarly large roster sizes for their '01 ECNL teams.  So, I am also assuming that they would like to have LH D1 teams, as opposed to LH D2 or D3 teams, next year on which to dual-roster some/many of their ECNL players to give them quality match playing opportunities.

My point is that Solar and FC Dallas should use the Club Pass System this year to ensure that their current LH D2 teams get promoted to LH D1 next year,  and that D'Feeters should acquire a team that will be in LH D1 next year.  Solar and FC Dallas could also acquire but since they have LH D2 teams and since Club Pass System is in place, they do not have to acquire.  I am not suggesting that they are or they will do what I am suggesting (no conspiracy theory here).  I am merely suggesting they could and they should.

Player pass rule won't have an impact on what happens with ECNL, other then some players not wanting to come down and help out their sister teams for fear of injury (as some have stated already).  The ECNL impacts for having a D1 team next year will come from team/player movement across clubs.

Not to continue the '01's highjacking this thread, but the easier solution (and you will see this happen) for the '01 FC Dallas, Solar, and 'Feet would be to just go and make a bunch of promises to teams that will be D1 next year so they'll change clubs.  Core of the ECNL team gets formed with the best of both teams, players from the D1 team that were NOT going to be with an ECNL club now have opportunity to play ECNL, you've got your extra players with D1 dual rostering.  Much easier for a club to make empty promises then to an entire team to pull them over then to try and get promoted through player pass rule.  Think about the '01 teams that will be D1 next year with ECNL potential already as a team and have several high-level ECNL capable players - Andromeda, Spirit, Rush, Kicks (SC & Gold) to name the most obvious.  Guarantee D'Feeters are trying like hell right now to pull one of those teams over for next year.  Remember what Pulp did last year with his teams???  My guess that same thing will happen with either Andromeda or Rush, or one of the Sting teams will bail and go elsewhere because of saturation of teams limiting players potential to be added to ECNL roster (Hilton, Angell, or Guzman).

Take note '02s...........................same will happen to you next year.

Don't think that will happen either me?obsessed. Those teams you listed might lose players, but teams will stay with the clubs. Half those teams just changed clubs last year (Sting Angell, Sting Guzman, and Rush), Andro & Spirit coaches have a pretty high level of loyalty to their clubs (Powers isn't leaving the club he helped reorganize and Quinn's been with Spirit for years), and JM would have to merge his entire club with one of the big 5 (yeah - that's not going to happen. If it did, there'd be a mutiny in Kicks Nation). I know 'feet are VERY active in trying to add that 2nd team in D1, but it won't happen. Might get a D2/D3 team to bite though.