Who Will Be The First To Use Player Pass?

Also, for league games they can only play for one team per day. Not sure about tourney rules.

Our older sister squad (same coach) lost their only keeper so my DD was going to fill in for the last 5 games but was not allowed per the above rule. least that's what I was told.

It seems to me that both the player pass rule and dual rostering an ECNL player on a D2 or D3 team are both subject to abuse. I don't see how people can be against the player pass rule, but for the dual rostering of an elite player on a level less than D1. If both rules are designed to help with injuries or give an elite player more play time, etc., then to be fair, there should be limits, not just age limits. Dual rostering should only be allowed with D1 teams and player pass should be you can play up a level but not down. Otherwise, it just seems like clubs are going to use the rules to help them move up a division rather than for their intended purposes. I agree with Pack -- I would be mad if my DD sat the bench because some ECNL player came in to help us beat another D3 team. That's not how I would want my DD to win her division!

Why do I have a sudden urge to post a YouTube clip from "Billy Madison"...    

saywhat wrote:It seems to me that both the player pass rule and dual rostering an ECNL player on a D2 or D3 team are both subject to abuse.  I don't see how people can be against the player pass rule, but for the dual rostering of an elite player on a level less than D1.  If both rules are designed to help with injuries or give an elite player more play time, etc., then to be fair, there should be limits, not just age limits.  Dual rostering should only be allowed with D1 teams and player pass should be you can play up a level but not down.  Otherwise, it just seems like clubs are going to use the rules to help them move up a division rather than for their intended purposes.  I agree with Pack -- I would be mad if my DD sat the bench because some ECNL player came in to help us beat another D3 team.  That's not how I would want my DD to win her division!        

Dual rostering between ECNL and LHGCL isn't "allowed" per se.  ECNL (US Club Soccer) and LHGCL (North Texas Soccer/US Youth Soccer) are two completely separate competing organizations with no interconnection, so when an ECNL player is placed on a NTX roster, the only concern is if they are already on a NTX roster, if not, they are eligible.

While the possibility exists for abuse with almost anything, I don't think the sky is actually falling as some here predict it will due to CPP.  

Over the last few years, many players have, in effect, "dual rostered", when it was clear that, for whatever reason, it wasn't working out on an ECNL team they had joined, they were able to "quit", and join a LHGCL team with no paperwork or permissions.  As far as NTX was concerned, they were simply non-rostered players.  

Frankly, I believe it is all much ado about nothing, based on parent's fear that their dd will be required to sit to make way for the ringer to take her place during an important game.  Sure, it can happen, but I doubt it will be as rampant as some think.

Don't assume that just because a player from ECNL joins a team, that the team is automatically better. First, not all ECNL players are better than all LHGCL players, and next, there is still the team aspect and not all ECNL players will fit in with a team and make that team better. It doesn't always work as planned (as examples, ask Sting and FCDY 98 teams how it has worked out for them against Pulpaneck's team in the past).

ballhead wrote:

Frankly, I believe it is all much ado about nothing, based on parent's fear that their dd will be required to sit to make way for the ringer to take her place during an important game.  Sure, it can happen, but I doubt it will be as rampant as some think.

You might be surprised how many parents are ok with their DD sitting out a game if that precious BYE is within reach.

SolarPower00 wrote:

ballhead wrote:

Frankly, I believe it is all much ado about nothing, based on parent's fear that their dd will be required to sit to make way for the ringer to take her place during an important game.  Sure, it can happen, but I doubt it will be as rampant as some think.

You might be surprised how many parents are ok with their DD sitting out a game if that precious BYE is within reach.

I get that, too.  Relegation can destroy teams, particularly at the bottom of DIII.  That said, I still suspect most parents believe that some other dd should sit if the ringer shows up, not theirs.

SolarPower00 wrote:

You might be surprised how many parents are ok with their DD sitting out a game if that precious BYE is within reach.

Then count me as one who would be surprised that there are that many idiots out there who would stick around with a coach who basically sent a message that he/she didn't believe that my DD was good enough to help the team stay at its current level or achieve the next level.

Just curious if anyone out in forum-land has actually had a conversation with a parent who's un-injured DD got reduced playing time, or told to not even suit up, in place of a CPP player, and the parent was cool with the situation?

Frankly, I'm also just as curious if anyone out in forum-land has actually had a conversation with a parent who's un-injured DD got reduced playing time, or told to not even suit up, in place of a CPP player, and the parent was completely hissed-off with the situation?

You'd think after a month of CPP in effect, there would be at least 1 posting on this forum by someone who's DD got benched, or someone who "knows someone" who's DD got benched in favor of a CPP. Maybe I missed that post  

I am in Oklahoma, so the issues may differ, but I think the more interesting player pass related issue involves state cup. Here, a state cup participant team may add up to 5 players to the roster for state cup, as long as the players added do not play for a team participating in state cup (i.e., you can add ECNL players). This scenario seems to have the potential for a lot of drama creation...

Gophers....your naïveté is excused...some things are difficult to compute without a number value attached
 

Why have you not seen an angry post by a 'deactivated player' parent?

Firstly, only a fraction of ntx soccer parents post on this site.
Secondly, any anonymity would be lost by a parent crying CPP foul on this forum.
And thirdly, some parents have accepted that this is what's best for the team (and in the DIII examples...we can potentially take our vacation in July and not have to go thru that QT process again)

tschlurker wrote:I am in Oklahoma, so the issues may differ, but I think the more interesting player pass related issue involves state cup.  Here, a state cup participant team may add up to 5 players to the roster for state cup, as long as the players added do not play for a team participating in state cup (i.e., you can add ECNL players).  This scenario seems to have the potential for a lot of drama creation...

Same for North Texas
http://www.ntxsoccer.org/UserFiles/file/Club_Pass_Rule_2014.pdf

SolarPower00 wrote:Gophers....your naïveté is excused...some things are difficult to compute without a number value attached
 

Why have you not seen an angry post by a 'deactivated player' parent?

Firstly, only a fraction of ntx soccer parents post on this site.
Secondly, any anonymity would be lost by a parent crying CPP foul on this forum.
And thirdly, some parents have accepted that this is what's best for the team (and in the DIII examples...we can potentially take our vacation in July and not have to go thru that QT process again)

If my use of logic and common sense makes me naive, then so be it...

Guess my logically wired brain is finding it hard to believe that in this cesspool of gossip, rumor, and innuendo that is txsoccer.net, that while discussing the biggest hot-button topic out there, no one has produced ONE story (1st, 2nd, or 3rd hand) of how someone's DD got screwed over by a nefarious use of CPP by a club/coach.

Must be a huge problem...

Sad that we rely on this forum for all of our research needs. Maybe someone from that near bottom DIII team that welcomed 3 DI players last week can PM you and give you that anecdotal evidence you need.

Where's Tornado11 when you need him?  Surely he has some friends of his kids, friends of friends, or at least knows someone who knows someone twice removed, that has been negatively effected by the CPP.

He was pretty good at knowing people that know everything about almost any incidents.

SolarPower00 wrote:Sad that we rely on this forum for all of our research needs. Maybe someone from that near bottom DIII team that welcomed 3 DI players last week can PM you and give you that anecdotal evidence you need.

I'd simply be interested to hear that one of those parents talked to a parent from another team, that talked to a parent from another team, that PM'd someone on this board who then posted that they got a PM from a parent who talked to another parent from another team, who talked to a parent from the near bottom DIII team whose DD's got benched or deactivated because the coach brought in 3 DI ringers to try and stem off relegation, and that parent could really care less or they are absolutely PO'd about it...

Speaking of which, where IS Tornado11 when you need him?  

Yes, I'm aware this is an 00 thread, but there are two teams in the 98 age group that can be looked at for examples (Sting and FCD). Last year, both used ECNL players in State Cup, (I believe the 5 max), but neither accomplished their goal of unseating CP's 98 Liverpool team (non-ECNL club, now Solar). There were some players/families that were impacted and weren't very happy, especially when it didn't work out. Sting ended up getting into Regionals as the State Cup runner-up, as CP's team had already secured a bye into Regionals via other route, but due to conflicts, didn't have any ECNL players in Regionals, and not much success at that level. When you start looking at the teams at that level that are making the quarter/semi finals (for Nationals), they are every bit as good as ECNL teams.

Ilik2wach wrote:When you start looking at the teams at that level that are making the quarter/semi finals (for Nationals), they are every bit as good as ECNL teams.

Which ECNL teams? Certainly a true statement with regard to comparing the best non-ECNL teams with the least successful ECNL teams. Possibly a true statement for the first year an age group has access to ECNL, and for the early years of ECNL availability when some "superteams" do not make the ECNL move. In any event, it seems likely that as ECNL matures and particularly as kids get older the gap between top ECNL and top non-ECNL teams will widen in each age group.

bwgophers wrote:

SolarPower00 wrote:Gophers....your naïveté is excused...some things are difficult to compute without a number value attached
 

Why have you not seen an angry post by a 'deactivated player' parent?

Firstly, only a fraction of ntx soccer parents post on this site.
Secondly, any anonymity would be lost by a parent crying CPP foul on this forum.
And thirdly, some parents have accepted that this is what's best for the team (and in the DIII examples...we can potentially take our vacation in July and not have to go thru that QT process again)

If my use of logic and common sense makes me naive, then so be it...

Guess my logically wired brain is finding it hard to believe that in this cesspool of gossip, rumor, and innuendo that is txsoccer.net, that while discussing the biggest hot-button topic out there, no one has produced ONE story (1st, 2nd, or 3rd hand) of how someone's DD got screwed over by a nefarious use of CPP by a club/coach.

Must be a huge problem...

Is or will the CPP rule be abused by the clubs/coaches?

• Absolutely
  

Why haven't there been any posts about it yet?

• I suspect that we'll see more of those posts showing up toward the end of the season. For now those directly affected are likely choosing to "suffer in silence" rather than face the wrath of their team for airing the dirty laundry.
  

Beyond the emotional toll it will have on the players directly affected (benched players), you have to wonder what message it sends to the kids as a whole?

• "Its OK to get outside help when you are struggling?"
  
• "Success is achieved through others?"
  
• "You're only as good as your last performance?"
  
• "The end justifies the means?"
  
• "Winning isn't everything, its the only thing?"
  
• "Club first, Team second, the rest is inconsequential?"
  

I don't know if there is a single "right" answer; rather, each of us (parent, player, coach) will eventually have to find "True North" on our own moral/ethical compass and then decide if the actions hold true to that bearing or if we are willing to compromise (or allow our kid to compromise) our values for the sake of the club/team.

For me, I see it as just another evolution in the "Win at all costs" mentality by exploiting the letter of the law while disregarding the spirit of it and the lesson it teaches doesn't bode well when applied to other facets of life. Ultimately, personal success cannot be achieved vicariously and a victory without honor is a great loss.

SoccerOverLoad, well said...

socceroverload wrote:[quote For me, I see it as just another evolution in the "Win at all costs" mentality by exploiting the letter of the law while disregarding the spirit of it and the lesson it teaches doesn't bode well when applied to other facets of life. Ultimately, personal success cannot be achieved vicariously and a victory without honor is a great loss.

I put the recklessness and carelessness squarely on the shoulders of the LHGCL Board. Although I am against the rule, honestly whatsoever, the club/teams cannot be put at blame for taking advantage of what the league allows.  If the league doesn't want abuse, then the league needs better management of THEIR rule.

It will only change when and if parents and coaches go and address the board in mass

socceroverload wrote:

bwgophers wrote:

SolarPower00 wrote:Gophers....your naïveté is excused...some things are difficult to compute without a number value attached
 

Why have you not seen an angry post by a 'deactivated player' parent?

Firstly, only a fraction of ntx soccer parents post on this site.
Secondly, any anonymity would be lost by a parent crying CPP foul on this forum.
And thirdly, some parents have accepted that this is what's best for the team (and in the DIII examples...we can potentially take our vacation in July and not have to go thru that QT process again)

If my use of logic and common sense makes me naive, then so be it...

Guess my logically wired brain is finding it hard to believe that in this cesspool of gossip, rumor, and innuendo that is txsoccer.net, that while discussing the biggest hot-button topic out there, no one has produced ONE story (1st, 2nd, or 3rd hand) of how someone's DD got screwed over by a nefarious use of CPP by a club/coach.

Must be a huge problem...

Is or will the CPP rule be abused by the clubs/coaches?

• Absolutely
  

Why haven't there been any posts about it yet?

• I suspect that we'll see more of those posts showing up toward the end of the season. For now those directly affected are likely choosing to "suffer in silence" rather than face the wrath of their team for airing the dirty laundry.
  

Beyond the emotional toll it will have on the players directly affected (benched players), you have to wonder what message it sends to the kids as a whole?

• "Its OK to get outside help when you are struggling?"
  
• "Success is achieved through others?"
  
• "You're only as good as your last performance?"
  
• "The end justifies the means?"
  
• "Winning isn't everything, its the only thing?"
  
• "Club first, Team second, the rest is inconsequential?"
  

I don't know if there is a single "right" answer; rather, each of us (parent, player, coach) will eventually have to find "True North" on our own moral/ethical compass and then decide if the actions hold true to that bearing or if we are willing to compromise (or allow our kid to compromise) our values for the sake of the club/team.

For me, I see it as just another evolution in the "Win at all costs" mentality by exploiting the letter of the law while disregarding the spirit of it and the lesson it teaches doesn't bode well when applied to other facets of life. Ultimately, personal success cannot be achieved vicariously and a victory without honor is a great loss.

We'll see...  I'm still sticking to my guns that the "abuse" of CPP in LHGCL league play is not going to be nearly as much as many on here predict.  Mainly due to the length and uncertainty of league play, and the restrictions that LHGCL has written into their version of the CPP rule (i.e. limited to 3 players, limited to only 1 player in last 3 games of season, can't play for 2 teams on the same day, etc...).  

State Cup is an entirely different beast, and given the combination of tournament play, the stakes involved in that tournament, and the more expansive nature of the rule (i.e. as many as 5 players, only require 9 players be the same from league play roster, etc...), I'm not the least bit surprised that clubs take advantage of CPP in State Cup to try and get a competitive advantage.  Also, much different appeal for the difference making top player - "Go help your LHGCL D1 club team win State Cup/Regionals/Nationals" vs. "Go help a D2 or D3 team in a league game".  

...and to reiterate again... I've NEVER said I was in favor of CPP.  Actually, I'm not a particular fan of it, or more specifically, the exact way in which it's implemented in both State Cup and LHGCL.  I think there are better ways to accomplish the intended "spirit" of the rule, while minimizing even the appearance of "questionable" use. However, the fact of the matter is that CPP is here, and with that, I just don't see that in it's current form, it's going to be "abused" in LHGCL to the extent that many others do.

Anyway, I've made my opinion known ad nauseum.  Time to shut up (much to the pleasure of many) and let time tell how it will play out.

bwgophers wrote: We'll see...  I'm still sticking to my guns that the "abuse" of CPP in LHGCL league play is not going to be nearly as much as many on here predict.  

Curious then....How much is considered acceptable? How much is considered too much?

I know you're not in favor, but I like this discussion so I'm responding to your statement above.

The problem is "abuse" is in the eye of the beholder. For every parent livid their kid lost minutes to a CPP player, there are probably at least a handful of others, on the same team, who are happy the team picked up help.

This outrage has "entitlement mentality" written all over it. LH rules don't have anything to do with how the coach evaluates your daughter.

If a coach or club is not doing right by your kid, you have plenty of options. Complaining to LH about their rules wouldn't be anywhere near the top of my list.

Seems the conversations are heavy toward the team that used it.

What about the opponent that gets their potential league standing altered because of something they didn't or couldn't do? To me the crime is not the team or club or coach that uses it. It's the team's that don't, who WILL and HAVE been affected by it.

I think most are focusing only on the team getting the benefit, not the team that gets relegated, or the one that misses promotion because of it.

backofthenet wrote:Seems the conversations are heavy toward the team that used it.

What about the opponent that gets their potential league standing altered because of something they didn't or couldn't do?  To me the crime is not the team or club or coach that uses it.  It's the team's that don't, who WILL and HAVE been affected by it.

I think most are focusing only on the team getting the benefit, not the team that gets relegated, or the one that misses promotion because of it.

it WILL be used to avoid relegation or move up. it is being used extensively on the boys side...