Re: A Request to all coaches/teams

by Guest 02/09/14, 08:32 am

I assume the parents were already talking about his DD, way before this situation occurred.

by HorribleRefsarePeopleToo 02/09/14, 08:35 am

I am relatively new here so I'm not sure how to use the quote function.

1. This is an Academy team, not Rec

2. I will be sure and clean my classes to make sure I can see as clearly as possible. I watch practice and the games. My daughter does not lose all 50/50s and 1v1s... In fact, she wins the majority of them. In addition, her team just split into two and she was asked to play "up" with the better team. My wife and I did not care which team she played with... We left that up completely to the coach. However, thanks for the parenting advice and I'll get to work immediately on dealing with the consequences.

3. I'm under no illusion that anyone owes my kid playing time. I just found it odd that the 3 players that did not play in this game played significant minutes in the previous 4 that weekend... Especially when we won 3 out of 4 of them and one was an elimination game. IF this ends up being this coaches way of telling the players they are not good enough then that makes my decision very easy... I do not want my child playing for a person like that. If he cannot have a direct conversation with the player and their parents then I have no doubt we can find a coach who is not fearful of such basic human interaction and communication.

4. My goal is not to identify the coach, I'm trying to get feedback about whether or not this is normal behavior. The term "a dick move" is an opinion. I have no problem if people disagree with my opinion and I stand by my assessment. I certainly have more important things in life to worry about than if someone on this forum is going to figure out what team/coach I'm referencing. If the question comes up I will gladly let the coach know who posted this so no one accuses the parents of the other player of being involved. I have no problem having difficult, direct, face to face conversations with people. I just ask that others do the same.

by Guest 02/09/14, 08:56 am

HorribleRefsarePeopleToo wrote:I am relatively new here so I'm not sure how to use the quote function.

1. This is an Academy team, not Rec

2. I will be sure and clean my classes to make sure I can see as clearly as possible. I watch practice and the games. My daughter does not lose all 50/50s and 1v1s... In fact, she wins the majority of them. In addition, her team just split into two and she was asked to play "up" with the better team. My wife and I did not care which team she played with... We left that up completely to the coach. However, thanks for the parenting advice and I'll get to work immediately on dealing with the consequences.

3. I'm under no illusion that anyone owes my kid playing time. I just found it odd that the 3 players that did not play in this game played significant minutes in the previous 4 that weekend... Especially when we won 3 out of 4 of them and one was an elimination game. IF this ends up being this coaches way of telling the players they are not good enough then that makes my decision very easy... I do not want my child playing for a person like that. If he cannot have a direct conversation with the player and their parents then I have no doubt we can find a coach who is not fearful of such basic human interaction and communication.

4. My goal is not to identify the coach, I'm trying to get feedback about whether or not this is normal behavior. The term "a dick move" is an opinion. I have no problem if people disagree with my opinion and I stand by my assessment. I certainly have more important things in life to worry about than if someone on this forum is going to figure out what team/coach I'm referencing. If the question comes up I will gladly let the coach know who posted this so no one accuses the parents of the other player of being involved. I have no problem having difficult, direct, face to face conversations with people. I just ask that others do the same.

i agree with many of your points, here's a few thoughts. first off this is academy, a learning time. many coaches treat tournaments as a time to win something, because we all know winning a plastic piece of crap for u10 is quite an achievement for a coach.
second these tournaments are good learning formats for young academy players and they ALL should play significant minutes. It was a dick move and you should be thankful for it, here's why. before you ponied up 2500 to him, you learned about him and saved yourself a big chunk of change. having 18 academy kids is a money grab and coaches who have that many should be avoided, he is there to teach your kid the game and 18 is A LOT for a coach to teach. He has the right to not sign your daughter at signing time and you have the right to leave. i suspect he played all of them lots of minutes to see them and then decided he had seen enough and wanted to field the strongest team. Lastly you have to understand there are many coaches that simply don't have the balls to tell you to look for another team, they will cut minutes, avoid you etc hoping you get the message. always remember you are PAYING for this and your daughter deserves a coach that is worthy of her,consider yourself lucky and move on...

by Guest 02/09/14, 09:00 am

HorribleRefsarePeopleToo wrote:I am relatively new here so I'm not sure how to use the quote function.

1. This is an Academy team, not Rec

2. I will be sure and clean my classes to make sure I can see as clearly as possible. I watch practice and the games. My daughter does not lose all 50/50s and 1v1s... In fact, she wins the majority of them. In addition, her team just split into two and she was asked to play "up" with the better team. My wife and I did not care which team she played with... We left that up completely to the coach. However, thanks for the parenting advice and I'll get to work immediately on dealing with the consequences.

3. I'm under no illusion that anyone owes my kid playing time. I just found it odd that the 3 players that did not play in this game played significant minutes in the previous 4 that weekend... Especially when we won 3 out of 4 of them and one was an elimination game. IF this ends up being this coaches way of telling the players they are not good enough then that makes my decision very easy... I do not want my child playing for a person like that. If he cannot have a direct conversation with the player and their parents then I have no doubt we can find a coach who is not fearful of such basic human interaction and communication.

4. My goal is not to identify the coach, I'm trying to get feedback about whether or not this is normal behavior. The term "a dick move" is an opinion. I have no problem if people disagree with my opinion and I stand by my assessment. I certainly have more important things in life to worry about than if someone on this forum is going to figure out what team/coach I'm referencing. If the question comes up I will gladly let the coach know who posted this so no one accuses the parents of the other player of being involved. I have no problem having difficult, direct, face to face conversations with people. I just ask that others do the same.

Best of luck to you and your DD in your search for a new team.

by HorribleRefsarePeopleToo 02/09/14, 09:43 am

Thanks for your response silentparent, that perspective is actually useful.

bwgophers, keep chiming in... It looks like you're in 8th place on the top posting users for the month. I'm assuming you get credit for quantity, not quality?

by Tiki-taka 02/09/14, 10:37 am

HorRef,

Totally understand your frustration as a parent, and your daughter's frustration. But, I am not sure this is the place to air it out with such details.

[Paragraph deleted... ]

I don't know anything about the coach, but I believe he has an accent, so that makes him infalliable.

I recommend take a deep breath, (Rest of sentence deleted) New Add: Then Run!

If you don't run, then I believe the best way to approach this is either several days later ask the coach nicely, why the rotation happened the way it did during that game, or wait a few more games to see how the coach works the roster.

18 on a roster for ~~a tournament~~ an academy team is not understandable ~~going into the last year of academy is understandable as the coach team is trying to solidfy what the team should be going into select~~. Going over the last few games of history, this team looks to be very competitive, so you definitely need to know where your DD stands on that roster in order to use the rest of this year to either look other places, or work on perceived weaknesses of the player the coach is concerned about.

I may not be on target with some of the above, but just becareful you don't earn a reputation of being "that Parent". It's hard to shake, and eventually it closes doors. It's a long journey, breathe...

Based on new info, I'm with SP, Soccerjack, and others. Not a great situation for your DD and Family, but a good opportunity for your DD to start weighing pros and cons of the situation and own her decision.

by Guest 02/09/14, 11:03 am

i have to agree, posting that stuff on the forum accomplishes nothing, vote with your feet and leave. Unless you are a complete nut there is a team somewhere for you. you are in academy, find a team you want to go into select with and don't be the 18th player( frankly no first year team should even have 18 imo but i digress) with a checkbook...

by Coach&Ref 02/09/14, 11:05 am

boilerjoe_96 wrote:
If you can't tell by watching practice you're dd is 16-18th out of 18 players(way too many for U10 as previously noted).... then you need to take off the 'Lil-Suzie' colored glasses. You put her in this spot by not seeing the fact she loses all the 50/50's and 1v1's in practice(I would guess). You, the parent put her in this spot though. Now be the parent and deal with the consequences.

On the other hand, this most likely was the coaches way to tell those 3 players, its time to move on. Different coaches handle different ways, no way is particularly good to tell a young child they aren't cut out for the team.(but again, you should have seen this coming)

Find her a team she can play on, I agree she needs to play, no matter what level it is.

I'm going to quote joe on this one, but modify it a bit, then add my own opinion.

The "Rose Colored Glasses" is a great analogy. I say that if you can't objectively identify your girl with an unbiased opinion that she is #3-8, then you should move on. You don't want her to be the best player, since she won't be challenged, nor under #8 as she is in danger of not starting or not getting enough playing time.

As far as winning 50/50 balls and winning 1v1s is concerned, I think joe is generalizing, but means much more. Firstly, if you are winning 1v1s and 50/50s in practice, this may not relate to "game like" situations, as the players are different than she is used to (she may have learned her particular teammates styles like: what moves they perfer, what foot they use, etc.) which is totally foreign in games with different girls, Also, the atmosphere is completely different.

Secondly, there is a thing called "game intelligence" or "soccer I.Q." She may be lacking this in a game situation.

As you can infer, practice doesn't necessarily translate nor correlate directly into games,

by Barca 02/09/14, 11:12 am

Couldn't agree more with SP.
Not so much with Tiki.
I've seen this page in the play book and it is cowardly. Coach needs to man up and let folks know where they are at. Walk away and find a team where your dd can contribute.

by Coach&Ref 02/09/14, 11:12 am

HorribleRefsarePeopleToo wrote:I am relatively new here so I'm not sure how to use the quote function.

1. This is an Academy team, not Rec

2. I will be sure and clean my classes to make sure I can see as clearly as possible. I watch practice and the games. My daughter does not lose all 50/50s and 1v1s... In fact, she wins the majority of them. In addition, her team just split into two and she was asked to play "up" with the better team. My wife and I did not care which team she played with... We left that up completely to the coach. However, thanks for the parenting advice and I'll get to work immediately on dealing with the consequences.

3. I'm under no illusion that anyone owes my kid playing time. I just found it odd that the 3 players that did not play in this game played significant minutes in the previous 4 that weekend... Especially when we won 3 out of 4 of them and one was an elimination game. IF this ends up being this coaches way of telling the players they are not good enough then that makes my decision very easy... I do not want my child playing for a person like that. If he cannot have a direct conversation with the player and their parents then I have no doubt we can find a coach who is not fearful of such basic human interaction and communication.

4. My goal is not to identify the coach, I'm trying to get feedback about whether or not this is normal behavior. The term "a dick move" is an opinion. I have no problem if people disagree with my opinion and I stand by my assessment. I certainly have more important things in life to worry about than if someone on this forum is going to figure out what team/coach I'm referencing. If the question comes up I will gladly let the coach know who posted this so no one accuses the parents of the other player of being involved. I have no problem having difficult, direct, face to face conversations with people. I just ask that others do the same.

Please refer to your own statement when I say this:

Unless I am mistaken, a team is only guaranteed THREE games, so if those three had significant playing time in the guaranteed games, did you not get at least what you paid for?

I'm not saying that not playing the in the last couple of games was right, but think about your statement.

by Guest 02/09/14, 11:54 am

Horrible Ref...

I was simply having that difficult, direct, (albeit not quite face to face) conversation that you requested. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that the simplicity of my statement and its underlying meaning didn't quite register with you. Let me add some more color...

1) If I'm in your shoes, I'm out the door with this team. 18 players on a U10 roster and my kid gets zero playing time in a tournament elimination game? Message from coach sent and received loud and clear. Tough, but valuable life lesson for my 9 yr old DD (and myself) to learn. Fool me once, shame on you... not going to let you fool me twice...

2) If I'm the coach, and one of my parents responded to a coaching decision I made with the team, or a playing time decision I made, by going on a public forum and posting with specific details that makes it easy for not only anyone directly associated with my team, but also the general public, to identify who I am, and referring to my decision as "a dick move"... guess what? No matter how good your DD is, or how sweet of a kid she is, I'm sorry, I don't need that crap from one of my parents, and I'm telling you that it's in our mutual best interest for your DD to go find another team to play on. The fact that I didn't see the need to play her in the semi-final game, makes that decision even easier for me.

Either way, this relationship isn't ending well, and whether by choice, or by necessity, I predict that you and your DD will be searching for a new team within a week, and I wish you the best of luck.

by HorribleRefsarePeopleToo 02/09/14, 12:24 pm

A few thoughts on the posts above...

1. There were no guest players on our team, all 18 are team members

2. The coach did not forget... After the game he specifically told the 3 players that did not play that he was not going to make "silly" substitutes just to be nice. I understand his reasoning (the players playing were doing well and he did not want to screw up the chemistry). However, I suspect there is a more effective way to communicate this with 9 year olds.

3. I could not care less about the cost or whether or not we got what we "paid for". It would have made more sense from my perspective if they told us we are only going to dress 15 players for this next round and your child is not one of them. Again, this is as much about the philosophy of communication and coaching as it is anything else.

My goal was never to provide enough detail to identify the specific team or coach. I underestimated how easily that can be figured out. The only reason for the posting was to determine if this is considered "normal" behavior by coaches at the Academy and ultimately the Select level. Clearly there is disagreement on this topic. I am under no illusion that my daughter deserves to be treated differently than any other player on her team or any team. However, my expectation is that the coach have honest, direct conversations with his players and their parents. Apparently that is not the expectation of everyone on this forum. We will meet with the coach in the next few days and decide what the next best step is for our daughter. Thanks for all the input, especially the constructive posts.

by Guest 02/09/14, 12:32 pm

"After the game he specifically told the 3 players that did not play that he was not going to make "silly" substitutes just to be nice."

this has some weight in classic but imo not academy and not in tournaments which are meaningless at that age. beware of coaches saying things like that, a coach is a mentor and these are young kids not pro athletes and frankly probably your kid and most kids here will not play college or any kind of pro so putting up and paying coaches who are jerky to your kid is ridiculous..

by haterinho 02/09/14, 01:08 pm

It's clear the coach doesn't CURRENTLY see her as his top option. He's sent that message.

It doesn't matter MUCH what coaches tell you, and it doesn't matter MUCH what they do in games the team is easily winning...you can ALWAYS go by their actions in the most critical games (ie. the ones your team has the most chance of losing).

That is the 100% foolproof way to know what he thinks about your dd vs the others on the team.

However, I'm not going to suggest you jump and leave. I think you should ask your DD what she wants.

If she wants to stay, work on her game, improve herself and fight for minutes. Let her do it.

If the coach tells you flat out she didn't play because she didn't give the team the best chance to win, THAT'S A GOOD THING. That's an honest coach.

If your DD does improve, she may have a chance to change her ranking within the team. It's typically very difficult, because most coaches don't change their opinion on a player once they've made their initial assessment.

But it can be done, and if your DD wants it bad enough, it could work out better for her in the long run vs jumping ship to another team where it's easier for her to get minutes.

A u10? There will be a ton of changes in the pecking order in coming years.

Now if the coach gives you all kinds of nonsensical excuses why she didn't play, I'd pull her and look for another team regardless what the DD wants.

If he doesn't have the stones to tell you the truth, you're wasting your time and money. You don't want a coach sugar coating things and telling you what you want to hear so you can keep writing checks.

Regarding whether this is normal? Absolutely. I've seen parents pay to travel out of state only to see their kid play 5 to 10 minutes the entire weekend. And it becomes more prevalent the older she gets and the higher the level she plays.

My dd has been on both sides of this...been the kid the coach pulls out after 5 minutes for any minor transgression, and been the kid who doesn't come off the field in key games at crunch time.

You can move her from team to team, but at some point you're going to have to let her decide if she loves the game enough to put in the time required to be one of the latter.

That said, I'll definitely co-sign with the others who've said carrying 18 on a u10 team usually means the coach isn't much interested in developing individual players...he better be one heckuva of a coach for you to even consider it.

by soccerjack 02/09/14, 01:31 pm

The reality is there are a lot of crappy coaches and clubs out there, that have no business coaching at this level and are making a pure money grab because the market is so big. The other side is there are a lot of parents that aren't honest with themselves or their kids as to where there ability stands....or worse the parent wants to be there more than the kid. When parents will not allow a kid to fail, they take away a learning opportunity. The answer to most things is usually in the middle.

When our dd came out of rec we went to one team that was suggested by a friend. The coach had about 25 players, he would take them all to a tournament...but they all would play. Should have been the first obvious sign.. huh. But we stayed lots of good people kids and adults. As time went on he split the teams, but nothing ever seemed to change, practices were the same no one really learned anything, the best players were still the best on that team...but they weren't getting any better. Moral of the story, this is the other side, coach sure is nice doesn't teach the kids much...paycheck keeps coming in. That team broke up.

What we found is if you look, there are very good coaches out there that will teach and make your kid better. You don't want your kid to be the best player unless they are on USWNT. Fighting for a starting position is good for everyone involved. You just have to take a chance and sometimes let your dd fail, if it doesn't work. Maybe that coach is a jacka$$, maybe he isn't. Best case is to get out now, there are 20 more jacka$$ out there and 20 more good coaches too. Take your time and find a good fit.

Lots of crappy coaches and parents out there. Welcome to NTX Soccer.

It only gets better. Next year the price more than doubles.

Good luck

by travelin light 02/09/14, 02:00 pm

haterinho wrote:
However, I'm not going to suggest you jump and leave. I think you should ask your DD what she wants.

If she wants to stay, work on her game, improve herself and fight for minutes. Let her do it.

If the coach tells you flat out she didn't play because she didn't give the team the best chance to win, THAT'S A GOOD THING. That's an honest coach.

If your DD does improve, she may have a chance to change her ranking within the team. It's typically very difficult, because most coaches don't change their opinion on a player once they've made their initial assessment.

But the coach hasn't told Horrible Ref what the reason is yet, and they probably won't. In my experience, I've never "forgotten" about players on my bench for an entire match. Playing time will be slighted with 18 on a roster, but the coach was absolutley aware of their intentions. They went with the 15 players that gave the team the best chance to advance.

It is advisable to make every attempt to settle differences privately before reaching out to a public forum. The unintended consequence from such actions is that the player in question will unfairly be black-balled. With Horrible Ref publicly calling out the coach's tactics as a "dick move", and with 16 other players currently on the team, I think the best bet is to move on to another situation now versus later. The coach has already explicity told Horrible Ref where their DD sits in relation to the rest of the team. A delayed transfer only gets harder the closer she gets to qualifying.

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