Player pass

bwgophers wrote:

SoccerDad75033 wrote:For a brief intermission, I have a couple of questions.

1 - Can player pass only be used for LH teams (or can a club pass players from their PPL team to their LH team)?

2 - Does player pass apply in PPL, or is this just a LH tool?

I thought it is only a tool for LH between LH teams, but wanted some confirmation.

If this is the case, is there any way a PPL player can play on a LH team (assuming same club) during the season?

PPL has not adopted CPP.  However, any player registered as an NTSSA competitive player can CPP with an LHGCL team from their same club, as long as there is no age restriction violation.

So yes, PPL players can CPP with LHGCL teams.  It also means that ECNL clubs can register their ECNL teams and players with NTSSA (but just not sign them up to play in any NTSSA leagues), and those players can also CPP with LHGCL teams.

Which some are doing for Premier League games.

Lefty wrote:

bwgophers wrote:

SoccerDad75033 wrote:For a brief intermission, I have a couple of questions.

1 - Can player pass only be used for LH teams (or can a club pass players from their PPL team to their LH team)?

2 - Does player pass apply in PPL, or is this just a LH tool?

I thought it is only a tool for LH between LH teams, but wanted some confirmation.

If this is the case, is there any way a PPL player can play on a LH team (assuming same club) during the season?

PPL has not adopted CPP.  However, any player registered as an NTSSA competitive player can CPP with an LHGCL team from their same club, as long as there is no age restriction violation.

So yes, PPL players can CPP with LHGCL teams.  It also means that ECNL clubs can register their ECNL teams and players with NTSSA (but just not sign them up to play in any NTSSA leagues), and those players can also CPP with LHGCL teams.

Which some are doing for Premier League games.

...and some had the opportunity to do so, but instead chose to CPP players from a D1 team in a younger age group to help them out this past weekend.

Pale Rider wrote:The problem is that everyone thinks they can read, speak and understand English. We can't. The rule states that it is intended to 1. promote player development by allowing a player to play at a higher level of competition and 2. To allow a team that is missing players due to illness, injury or for other reasons (love that one, other reasons? That one covers things like, "she's not any good and we told her to stay home".)

We've all misinterpreted the meaning of "higher level of competition".  We thought it meant you should be playing in what most everyone regards as a higher division. D3 player playing in D2 etc. Wroooooong!!!

THAT IS NOT WHAT "HIGHER LEVEL OF COMPETITION MEANS".  LH interprets "higher level of competition", to mean that ANY player can play AT OR ABOVE their age group. That's it. I swear I'm not making this up, that is what LH says it means.  They were very diligent in pointing out that a U-14 can't play in U-13 (gee thanks, never would have guessed that).

So you see, we are promoting player development by having the D1 players, play in the D3 games, because as we all know, if you really want to develop your game, there is no better place to do that than sitting on the bench and watching someone else play. That reminds me, back in the 80's I used to watch MJ every chance I got.  By the time he was halfway through his rookie season in Chicago, I could dunk from half court using my ankles.  Just goes to show, how much you can improve by sitting around and watching others.

It's a great rule. Scores upon scores of players will reap the benefits of being developed. The silver lining in it all?  They don't even have to break a sweat.

Do you always believe what someone says?

Like most rules or laws, what matters is what it says you specifically can and can't do, rather than what it is allegedly 'intended to accomplish'.

Soccer is suppose to be a team sport, right? We preach to our daughters that they should play as a team! Then we tell them we can't beat team "A" with our team, so we need to bring in a ringer, so we can win. What does that tell them? I do think when used improperly player pass is cheating. We all signed up for a team, stick with that team win or lose, and if you want to make improvements do it July 1st. We will stay with our team win or lose. Hopefully win!

Are you sure about the CPP for PPL. I am pretty sure--but not positive--that there is no clyb pass rule. If you are not on the roster you cannot play. We played some teams last year low on players but couldn't bring anyone in.

I don't know if you can CPP in plano but you can bring a player from plano to LHGCL as long as they are in the same club. It might not bother many now, since it's early in the season and probably hasn't happened yet, but wait until those couple of d1 teams and d3 teams are fighting to keep there spots and they beat a few of the other teams.

Lefty wrote:

Pale Rider wrote:The problem is that everyone thinks they can read, speak and understand English. We can't. The rule states that it is intended to 1. promote player development by allowing a player to play at a higher level of competition and 2. To allow a team that is missing players due to illness, injury or for other reasons (love that one, other reasons? That one covers things like, "she's not any good and we told her to stay home".)

We've all misinterpreted the meaning of "higher level of competition".  We thought it meant you should be playing in what most everyone regards as a higher division. D3 player playing in D2 etc. Wroooooong!!!

THAT IS NOT WHAT "HIGHER LEVEL OF COMPETITION MEANS".  LH interprets "higher level of competition", to mean that ANY player can play AT OR ABOVE their age group. That's it. I swear I'm not making this up, that is what LH says it means.  They were very diligent in pointing out that a U-14 can't play in U-13 (gee thanks, never would have guessed that).

So you see, we are promoting player development by having the D1 players, play in the D3 games, because as we all know, if you really want to develop your game, there is no better place to do that than sitting on the bench and watching someone else play. That reminds me, back in the 80's I used to watch MJ every chance I got.  By the time he was halfway through his rookie season in Chicago, I could dunk from half court using my ankles.  Just goes to show, how much you can improve by sitting around and watching others.

It's a great rule. Scores upon scores of players will reap the benefits of being developed. The silver lining in it all?  They don't even have to break a sweat.

Do you always believe what someone says?  

Like most rules or laws, what matters is what it says you specifically can and can't do, rather than what it is allegedly 'intended to accomplish'.  

This is dumb. I'm outta here.

Lefty wrote:

Pale Rider wrote:The problem is that everyone thinks they can read, speak and understand English. We can't. The rule states that it is intended to 1. promote player development by allowing a player to play at a higher level of competition and 2. To allow a team that is missing players due to illness, injury or for other reasons (love that one, other reasons? That one covers things like, "she's not any good and we told her to stay home".)

We've all misinterpreted the meaning of "higher level of competition".  We thought it meant you should be playing in what most everyone regards as a higher division. D3 player playing in D2 etc. Wroooooong!!!

THAT IS NOT WHAT "HIGHER LEVEL OF COMPETITION MEANS".  LH interprets "higher level of competition", to mean that ANY player can play AT OR ABOVE their age group. That's it. I swear I'm not making this up, that is what LH says it means.  They were very diligent in pointing out that a U-14 can't play in U-13 (gee thanks, never would have guessed that).

So you see, we are promoting player development by having the D1 players, play in the D3 games, because as we all know, if you really want to develop your game, there is no better place to do that than sitting on the bench and watching someone else play. That reminds me, back in the 80's I used to watch MJ every chance I got.  By the time he was halfway through his rookie season in Chicago, I could dunk from half court using my ankles.  Just goes to show, how much you can improve by sitting around and watching others.

It's a great rule. Scores upon scores of players will reap the benefits of being developed. The silver lining in it all?  They don't even have to break a sweat.

Do you always believe what someone says?  

Like most rules or laws, what matters is what it says you specifically can and can't do, rather than what it is allegedly 'intended to accomplish'.  

This is dumb. I'm outta here.

Wired wrote:I don't know if you can CPP in plano but you can bring a player from plano to LHGCL as long as they are in the same club. It might not bother many now, since it's early in the season and probably hasn't happened yet, but wait until those couple of d1 teams and d3 teams are fighting to keep there spots and they beat a few of the other teams.

I have less a problem with bringing players up - if the Plano player is good enough to have an impact on the LH team, and are part of a larger club, it is quite possible they may be on that team next year anyway.  (I didn't say I had NO problem - but given the N+1 rules for keeping a bye, an argument could then be made that you aren't the same team if you add or lose any players.)

I do have a problem with playing down (or even laterally within a division).  This is where player pass has the real opportunity to be abused.

soccerisfun wrote:

Wired wrote:I don't know if you can CPP in plano but you can bring a player from plano to LHGCL as long as they are in the same club. It might not bother many now, since it's early in the season and probably hasn't happened yet, but wait until those couple of d1 teams and d3 teams are fighting to keep there spots and they beat a few of the other teams.

I have less a problem with bringing players up - if the Plano player is good enough to have an impact on the LH team, and are part of a larger club, it is quite possible they may be on that team next year anyway.  (I didn't say I had NO problem - but given the N+1 rules for keeping a bye, an argument could then be made that you aren't the same team if you add or lose any players.)

I do have a problem with playing down (or even laterally within a division).  This is where player pass has the real opportunity to be abused.

I agree that this is where player pass has the largest opportunity to be abused, but development is not a one-way street. Development can happen with a player "playing down" just as easily as it can from playing up.

Sometimes players are at the end of the bench on a better team, and would benefit from extra playing time/touches they could get from playing on a lower division team. Or maybe a player is learning a new position and could benefit from playing in a game at a slower speed.

One thing I have never seen . . . does anyone have a list of the Board Members of LH and the team/club with which they are affiliated?

I'm all for player development, but when a dd hasn't practiced with a team and is simply asked to play a game against a division opponent, it has nothing to do with player development.

Wired wrote:I'm all for player development, but when a dd hasn't practiced with a team and is simply asked to play a game against a division opponent, it has nothing to do with player development.

I know it happened in U15 last season- a top 2 team in a division provided a player to a team in the same division trying to avoid relegation/requalifying. Perhaps it happened in other age groups also.

Wired wrote:Soccer is suppose to be a team sport, right? We preach to our daughters that they should play as a team! Then we tell them we can't beat team "A" with our team, so we need to bring in a ringer, so we can win. What does that tell them? I do think when used improperly player pass is cheating. We all signed up for a team, stick with that team win or lose, and if you want to make improvements do it July 1st. We will stay with our team win or lose. Hopefully win!

You hit the nail on the head, and you're getting at the central issue of what these rules are doing.

The definition of "Team" is changing right under our noses. I was solidly behind this rule when I first got wind of it. After seeing it in action, it's garbage.

Team means nothing. N+1 means nothing. Rosters mean nothing...coaches are rostering kids all over creation just to meet #s requirements even though they have little intention to play those kids regularly on the teams to which they've rostered them for LH. (i.e. on teams in lower/higher divisions, or on teams in different age groups with space for bodies/names on the roster sheets). Coaches can roster any and all comers somewhere...anywhere...because they know they can always CPP a group of girls back into games when they feel the need.

My thought initially was this could be positive since it would allow clubs to run player pools more like international academies. You know - maximize development. In reality all it's done is erode the concept of "team", and turn over more of what little solidarity and control the players & parents had in this process over to coaches.

These are girls. They are not pros. They won't be sold for profit. There is no reason their experience should be the same as pro academy players.

And big club / small club...there is very little difference. Most all coaches are willing to take full advantage of this bonanza. The few that aren't should be commended, but unless parents start voting with their wallets this will get worse. I can see a few major dust ups on the horizon before things start to change....or just could be major dust ups and things don't change. Either way - the dust ups over the abuse of rosters are coming.

The LHGCL rules including the player pass have been written up by representatives of the big clubs with multiple teams to keep as many of their teams in the top divisions as possible.  This is how the big clubs always attract those long lines of girls trying out for the top teams.  The rule clearly allows their coaches to field the best roster the best available players in their clubs in the name of player development.  It surely keeps the money machines running at full speed year after year!  The ONLY sad part of the whole ordeal is the parents of those girls who keep the bench warm while they are paying the full club and team fees.  These parents have been fooled and bought the lies that many coaches have perpetuated about how great their DD are as soccer players.  These parents can't frankly admit to themselves that their daughters are not good enough at this time to be playing in D1, D2 or D3 just by using their own eyeballs to watch their daughters playing soccer.  Now that their daughters are keeping the bench warm for couple of guest players while they are writing those fat checks for the clubs, they are complaining about unfairness of the rule.  Really???  That's SO unfortunate!  May be these parents should be asking for a written guarantee from the coaches and clubs that their daughters would be playing soccer rather than practicing their cheerleading skills from the bench?  Now that's a better idea than complaining about the rule!!!!

To those who thinking about forcing a change in the rule, good luck to you.  Why would these clubs change the rule that is working to protect their money machines?  Do you really think these coaches and clubs are doing all this soccer "THING" for free?  Have you looked at the amount you've been and will be paying to these coaches and clubs for the rest of the soccer season?  If you want to take your DD off those top teams, there are long lines of parents with their girls in Dallas area who will gladly take those spots and happily write the fat checks.  There are hundreds, if not thousands, of suckers born every day on the soccer fields and along the sidelines.  It's a sad but true FACT!

The bottom few players on any roster have ALWAYS rode pine on top teams while paying same fees as anyone else. This is select soccer.

If anything, CPP rules help that group because now at least a coach CAN send those players to another team to get minutes instead of them leaving the club in a huff like they did before.

The people who choose the wrong team for their daughters talent level, or don't know how to decipher coach speak,  will be around every year with or without CPP...the system needs those cornerstones to hold up the pyramid, and usually once a family is burned they figure it out the next time.

I'm talking about very good formerly known as TEAMS being gerrymandered into chaos because of CPP. I'm talking about core players on solid teams, who could play anywhere they want, being impacted by coaches needing to spread a small group of talent across as many paying revenue streams as possible (formerly known as teams). It is not news when the bench gets mad they aren't playing, but it will be news if/when good teams and really good players get tired of seeing their hard work willy-nilly affected by CPP and the "creative" rostering trends getting traction in NTX.  All it takes is two or three big names hitting the wall over this and the market will adjust.

Does anyone else see the irony of one of the primary spokespeople for Kicks Nation complaining that players are going to get shuffled around too much between teams

Before you rip me a new one Hata, I totally get your point... just find it a tad funny where the message is coming from...

By the way... if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly, there's going to be some pretty short benches on Sept. 7th... will be interesting to see how that all works out...

bwgophers wrote:Does anyone else see the irony of one of the primary spokespeople for Kicks Nation complaining that players are going to get shuffled around too much between teams

Before you rip me a new one Hata, I totally get your point... just find it a tad funny where the message is coming from...

By the way... if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly, there's going to be some pretty short benches on Sept. 7th...  will be interesting to see how that all works out...

I wouldn't rip you, just don't like how the rule is used...and not really irony because anyone in the know understands Kicks may have mixed players in academy, but once select there were distinct teams with separate rosters, and while they may have supported each other, there was no mixing between them on game day prior to CPP.  Even with the new rule Kicks used CPP MUCH less than big clubs last year.  The real irony is their reluctance to do so probably contributed to only having 1 d1 kicks team this year...while others from clubs that railed against "kicks nation" concept for years used it liberally to good effect. Now 2nd year in? It is Wild West and everyone is using CPP for all sorts of purposes, and I think it's a bit more than just general parent angst on the horizon.

I have no problem acknowledging when wrong. I thought CPP was a good thing...turns out it nearly dismantles the concept of team. I thought ECNL clubs keeping byes might dilute the league, turns out because of liberal use of CPP and creative rostering, the league probably ended up far stronger at u14 than it would have otherwise.

haterinho wrote:

...because anyone in the know understands Kicks may have mixed players in academy...

May have mixed?  The roster changes depends on who they are playing(and when,  like tourney finals....)

So, gophers, help me to be crystal clear please.

Can  PPL player CPP to a LH team?

Can a player just not CPP from a PPL to PPL team?

If an 03 PPL player is playing up with 02s in PPL, can she CPP with LH 03s and older or does she have to stay with 02s and up?

Coach&Ref wrote:So, gophers, help me to be crystal clear please.

Can  PPL player CPP to a LH team?   Yes (if PPL player is on the same Club as LH team)

Can a player just not CPP from a PPL to PPL team?   Correct..and no CPP from LH to PPL

If an 03 PPL player is playing up with 02s in PPL, can she CPP with LH 03s and older or does she have to stay with 02s and up?   Can play with her true age group in LHGCL anytime regardless of whether she plays up with 02s regularly or not

Coach&Ref wrote:So, gophers, help me to be crystal clear please.

Can  PPL player CPP to a LH team?

Can a player just not CPP from a PPL to PPL team?

If an 03 PPL player is playing up with 02s in PPL, can she CPP with LH 03s and older or does she have to stay with 02s and up?

I would double check with PPL and LHGCL, but my understanding of the CPP rules for those leagues is as follows:

- PPL does not allow CPP players to be used in league games. If you are not on the official NTSSA roster for a team, you don't play in a PPL league game.

- For LHGCL, my understanding is that as long as the player is a registered NTSSA competitive player that is on the official NTSSA roster of a team from the same club, and they are age eligible to play for the target team, then they can CPP in an LHGCL league game. It does not matter what league, division, or age group their primary team plays in.

bwgophers wrote:

Coach&Ref wrote:So, gophers, help me to be crystal clear please.

Can  PPL player CPP to a LH team?

Can a player just not CPP from a PPL to PPL team?

If an 03 PPL player is playing up with 02s in PPL, can she CPP with LH 03s and older or does she have to stay with 02s and up?

I would double check with PPL and LHGCL, but my understanding of the CPP rules for those leagues is as follows:

- PPL does not allow CPP players to be used in league games.  If you are not on the official NTSSA roster for a team, you don't play in a PPL league game.

- For LHGCL, my understanding is that as long as the player is a registered NTSSA competitive player that is on the official NTSSA roster of a team from the same club, and they are age eligible to play for the target team, then they can CPP in an LHGCL league game.  It does not matter what league, division, or age group their primary team plays in.  

You are correct. For this season at least...

Thanks y'all. It kind of makes my decision, and that of my daughter, a bit easier given the flexibility.

NoSpinZone wrote:

haterinho wrote:

...because anyone in the know understands Kicks may have mixed players in academy...

May have mixed?  The roster changes depends on who they are playing(and when,  like tourney finals....)

LOL

The hypocrisy is amusing at best and disingenuous at worst. It was fine in Academy because it worked to Kicks benefit but now its not because it doesn't work to Kicks benefit? Got it.

Even funnier is the attempt to once again build up the high quality of D1. Okay we all get that when the Kicks run away with the D1 title that they overcame tremendous odds and even better competition than Ecnl.

Tiresome

Pinnochio wrote:

NoSpinZone wrote:

haterinho wrote:

...because anyone in the know understands Kicks may have mixed players in academy...

May have mixed?  The roster changes depends on who they are playing(and when,  like tourney finals....)

LOL

The hypocrisy is amusing at best and disingenuous at worst. It was fine in Academy because it worked to Kicks benefit but now its not because it doesn't work to Kicks benefit? Got it.

Even funnier is the attempt to once again build up the high quality of D1. Okay we all get that when the Kicks run away with the D1 title that they overcame tremendous odds and even better competition than Ecnl.

Tiresome

It's obvious the CPP rules work to Kicks' benefit...LOL...why would you suggest otherwise? I'm not a spokesperson for kicks...I call em like I see em and have always given kudos where due, regardless if a team is Kicks or not. JM is the TSN spokesperson for kicks. My changed opinion on the rule has nothing to do with where my daughter plays. The rule works for her club at her age group...doesn't mean I'm controlled by puppet strings and must therefore believe it's a good thing.

As far as turning yet another thread into a pointless ECNL discussion...no thanks...not impressed.