Does this sound familiar to you?

4-3-3 wrote:What proof or evidence exists that Messi thinks any faster than Aguero, Suarez - all you really have to do is watch them play to see that or any other top 10 world class forward. They all understand the game at that level. There is a ton of evidence in watching his games before he got hurt that he routinely ran past 3, 4 or 5 defenders while carrying the ball. In the last year, it's clear he does not have the same explosiveness, and while his production is still world class, it's not where it once was.
So if he's a step slower and now easier to contain, how does one conclude his athleticism wasn't a huge part of his game?

We're setting up these EITHER / OR constructs that aren't real, and in my opinion don't make much sense. Yellowcard specifically said players need to be taught to play like Pirlo instead of Ronaldinho at early ages...and then the ones that have athleticism will be better off since now they understand the game.

I completely disagree. For one, that's implying Ronaldinho didn't understand the game because he used tricks and skill at game speed. Most true soccer folks would acknowledge Ronaldinho is as much a soccer genius as Zidane, so that implication is laughable. They both understand the game at world class levels.

Which leads me to the one of the MAIN problems with American soccer. People bring their cultural stereotypes and predispositions from American life into their evaluation of soccer players. Ronaldinho is pacey and skillfull...uses tricks...therefore he's a great athlete and doesn't understand the game. Scholes is clinical and efficient, not a speed burner, therefore he's not an great athlete and understands the game above most others.

It's just silly. I've said it before, it's why you'll rarely see an American yaya toure or Paul Pogba...those players are going up top to score goals or going outside to run up and down the flanks because they'll be pigeon-holed as great athletes at early ages - this proves exactly what I am saying. Both yaya and pogba probably showed great vision as youth players...and that's why they were developed by world class academies to be skillfull athletes in the thinking man's area of the field.  Thing is, we're also not likely to see an american Scholes, Xavi or Pirlo because the athleticism required to do what those players do is underestimated and we think we can put the beckerman types out there to do that job.

Yes some players depend more on their athleticism than others...that's the nature sport and of the different roles and positions on the field.

American sports fans are caught up in using pure speed as the measure of athleticism. How many would say Jerome Boateng is as great an athlete as Ronaldo? Not many. But if I'm picking a team I'm taking Boateng at center back well before I'm taking Ronaldo. In fact you put a team of 11 Ronaldo's or Messi's together and that team might dominate youth u12 and below games but won't win many games at the top level.

And for that reason I completely disagree with the idea we need to build more 8 year old super teams...that's the type of thinking that's running the costs through the roof and leading to under developed players. If you have 10 Messi's on a u8 team that means 7 or 8 of those lil Messi's won't be seeing enough of the ball because the top few Messi's won't be giving it up. If any one of those 10 Messi's is sitting on the bench that means they're giving up minutes they could be playing on another team with fewer Messi's. - there is a reason it is called a team - made up of strikers, midfielders and defenders - all should be taught the requirements of each position.

I also completely disagree with the point that a major problem is u.s. kids watching too much youtube doing too many ball tricks. LOL. Sorry don't buy it. Young kids need to love the ball and love the game. If they grow up spending time mastering the ball enough to pull off what ronaldo does at game speed...more power to them. They will have plenty of time to become robots later in their club soccer career. LOl.

If anything we should be thanking youtube for giving more of our kids an easier pathway to fall in love with the game. Yellow, not sure how you don't think pay to play is a major issue...when it's one of the key structural differences between us and the rest of the world. But that's probably why you honed in on the ball tricks thing and totally missed Kobe calling out the money being made off the kids in AAU.

4-3-3 wrote:Only the top few players in AAU are getting total free rides...most have to pay for travel and that is where the costs balloon and end up excluding families. AAU is not completely comparable to soccer pay to play, already acknowledged, but the point is its heading the same direction. I agree with Kobe's point generally but let's not get carried away. There a handful of euro players making an impact on the game...they arent the majority and there isnt an international league in the world where I'd take their champion in a bet against the ncaa d1 champion in any given year.

We're talking about specializing 8 year olds into positions so they can be on a super team?  Why should any 8 year old be specialized that early? Who is this super team supposed to play against for decent competition? Other super teams of 8 year olds in Southern California or New York?  What demographics are you left with once u narrow down to parents willing to undertake massive costs for their specialized 8 year old super team? Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree.

soccersounder wrote:The way this thread went is frustrating to me.

There is a good chance that I am the most Liberal person outside of Austin in the whole state.

But even I realize that we are in AMERICA. We do stuff the AMERICAN WAY. Stop complaining and choose the best way for you.

Dang! If this was a political and not a soccer thread, many of you deep red staters would be considered socialist. And some of you talking bad about about our soccer would be screaming: "YOU CAN  ALWAYS MOVE OUT OF THE COUNTRY!"

I say this with humor.... Kinda :-)

4-3-3 wrote:It's not really talking bad...it's like family. Someone can piss and moan about the way something is going in the fam, but its coming out of love and because they want to see it improved. Same thing with the true u.s. soccer fans...especially those who feel there is no good reason we shouldnt be among the best in the world.

That macro debate is a totally different discussion than the local stuff and ecnl and yadda yadda...of course people are going to do what they think is best for their own families.

As for NCAA hoops vs internationals...time will tell...but saying MLS teams wouldnt be relegation candidates in epl is a stretch...mls clubs are protected from dealing with relegation at home, so how can we expect they're equipped to handle it in a top class international league. We dont even know if mls teams are the best teams in american soccer.

yellowcard5 wrote:
There are tons of kids U12 and below that look like world beaters on the field, but once they get to a level where others understand how to defend and not dive in on their 37 consecutive step overs, what do they have?  Do they have the vision to pick out a pass, do they have the understanding how to find the channels to get on the ball?

Our kids have grown up identifying idols by watching you tube clips instead of by watching full matches.  We would be better off teaching all of our kids to try and play like a Scholes/Pirlo instead of a Ronaldinho.  Those that have the athletic ability will be that much better off having an ingrained understanding of the game and the way it should be played.

This is where we are going wrong and in my opinion this is what Kobe is referring to in this article.  Until our coaches understand that skill=fundamentals, not tricks to faster we will begin to develop players.  

My challenge to you is the next time you are watching any training session U12 or below...see how many kids are very comfortable doing step overs and tricky turns but still can't trap a ball properly when it is hit to them with any pace.  I would bet if you actually watched for this, you would be amazed.  I've seen it, and I know others out there have...the 5 year old dancing around like a ballerina on the ball, but still can't kick a ball properly.  Why are we skipping steps 1-20 and going straight to step 21 of development?

soccersounder wrote:

4-3-3 wrote:It's not really talking bad...it's like family. Someone can piss and moan about the way something is going in the fam, but its coming out of love and because they want to see it improved. Same thing with the true u.s. soccer fans...especially those who feel there is no good reason we shouldnt be among the best in the world.

That macro debate is a totally different discussion than the local stuff and ecnl and yadda yadda...of course people are going to do what they think is best for their own families.

As for NCAA hoops vs internationals...time will tell...but saying MLS teams wouldnt be relegation candidates in epl is a stretch...mls clubs are protected from dealing with relegation at home, so how can we expect they're equipped to handle it in a top class international league. We dont even know if mls teams are the best teams in american soccer.

If a person follows the American Game, they will be familiar with the US Open Cup. MLS beats up on the other Leagues with their reserve teams, whenever they are motivated to win. So they are clearly the best teams in US Soccer. And in recent years, for the first time ever, beating Mexican teams in Mexico. Comparing them to EPL is only conjecture, but if you watch enough Sunderland, Hull City and QPR teams and compare them on the eye test to the Galaxy, Sounders and Sporting KC, the eye test will favor MLS.

4-3-3 wrote:

soccersounder wrote:

4-3-3 wrote:It's not really talking bad...it's like family. Someone can piss and moan about the way something is going in the fam, but its coming out of love and because they want to see it improved. Same thing with the true u.s. soccer fans...especially those who feel there is no good reason we shouldnt be among the best in the world.

That macro debate is a totally different discussion than the local stuff and ecnl and yadda yadda...of course people are going to do what they think is best for their own families.

As for NCAA hoops vs internationals...time will tell...but saying MLS teams wouldnt be relegation candidates in epl is a stretch...mls clubs are protected from dealing with relegation at home, so how can we expect they're equipped to handle it in a top class international league. We dont even know if mls teams are the best teams in american soccer.

If a person follows the American Game, they will be familiar with the US Open Cup. MLS beats up on the other Leagues with their reserve teams, whenever they are motivated to win. So they are clearly the best teams in US Soccer. And in recent years, for the first time ever, beating Mexican teams in Mexico. Comparing them to EPL is only conjecture, but if you watch enough Sunderland, Hull City and QPR teams and compare them on the eye test to the Galaxy, Sounders and Sporting KC, the eye test will favor MLS.

Here's where i fess up...i don't follow enough mls to make an argument  one way or the other. I have followed the promotion / relegation discussion on other sites and there is a very vocal group that believes mls quality won't improve without it, and that if allowed other academies would impact mls style of play based on their own merit.

I'm not sold on the eye test comparing bottom of mls to top of epl. For one thing you're watching those struggling epl teams battle against top quality comp...and even if i could grant u that eye test favors seattle over qpr or Sunderland, that doesnt mean much since I'd need to grant u that an eye test favors seattle over mid table teams like tottenham or Swansea for them to not be relegation fodder every year.