LH Promotion / Relegation

SFFL5 wrote:

soccerpapa2 wrote:So if read this correctly, on 9 teams in D1 next year?
1-8 get byes plus the winner of playoffs.

1 thru 8 earn a bye and remain in D1. 9 thru 13, as well as the 1st place of D2, will be placed in one of the two 3 team pools. the winner of the pools will get a D1 spot. 8+2 pool winners = 10

You have to read the fine print:

DI pool playoff matches will be played with 6 teams in 2 pools. Pool winners advance to play in a final with the winner advancing to DI and all others move to DII.

Only 1 team of the 6 will be placed in D1.  8+1=9.  At U13, LHGCL has traditionally moved to only 9 teams in D1.

jibjab2 wrote:

SFFL5 wrote:

soccerpapa2 wrote:So if read this correctly, on 9 teams in D1 next year?
1-8 get byes plus the winner of playoffs.

1 thru 8 earn a bye and remain in D1. 9 thru 13, as well as the 1st place of D2, will be placed in one of the two 3 team pools. the winner of the pools will get a D1 spot. 8+2 pool winners = 10

You have to read the fine print:

DI pool playoff matches will be played with 6 teams in 2 pools. Pool winners advance to play in a final with the winner advancing to DI and all others move to DII.

Only 1 team of the 6 will be placed in D1.  8+1=9.  At U13, LHGCL has traditionally moved to only 9 teams in D1.

dang it still too early for me.

I still say that with at least a couple teams not making N+1 this year, that they could adjust things for this playing year so that it's not so convoluted and drastic next year.

I'm with 10sdad. I am hoping they are waiting for today to see how it all shakes out officially. If teams don't make they will have the chance to reshuffle. They will have to if there are only 6 D2 teams.

So . . . inquiring minds what to know . . .

which teams did not make N+1?

LP Redknapp

jibjab2 wrote:So . . . inquiring minds what to know . . .

which teams did not make N+1?

LP Redknapp

They made 0+16 and will be just fine.

So...this whole Redknapp thing confuses me..
Rules say you have to return N+1 to keep your bye.
Rules also say that if a team attempts to change clubs, they must keep 75% to stake a claim to the bye..
OK.......got it......so.......If the "mutinous" team fails to retain 75% in the attempted club change...the former club gets to keep the bye regardless of how many players they retain?

In this case - Redknapp retains 0 players...and keeps the bye?  Not retaining N+1 sends you to qualifying...0 returning players keeps the bye?  Am I the only one that doesn't understand the logic here?

So if a club doesn't make N+1, what is to stop them from saying the players that left were trying to start a mutiny?  It essentially makes N+1 totally unenforceable.

I guess it just goes to show its more about politics than level of competition. Without qualifying there is no way to prove on paper that the new team is as good as the team that actually earned the bye. I say if 75% is not retained in a club change, and the original team does not make N+1 for ANY reason....neither team gets the bye, and both must requalify.

My understanding is LH does not have an N+1 rule, only PPL does. if LH had an N+1, I know about half the teams in the 02's wouldn't keep their bye.

Welcome 10s - preaching to the choir

LHGCL is run by the large clubs.  They institute rules that benefit . . . (wait for it) . . . the large clubs.

If the "mutinous" crew doesn't get 75%, then the club retains the bye - to do with it as they see fit.  They can assign it to any team, form a new team, etc.

I believe, however, that LHGCL has the ability to decide that while the club keeps the bye, they can move the new team to a lower division and promote a lower division team.  But do really expect to see them exercise that discretion?

So yes, in theory, a team that could not make LHGCL through qualifying, can get a slot via use of the club bye.

I'm new to this... What is N+1 rule?

Argyle wrote:I'm new to this... What is N+1 rule?

N+1 is a bit of a misnomer. N+1 refers to rules that have been in place in select leagues such as PPL in the past where in order to keep a league/division bye, a team was required to return a minimum of "N+1" players from their previous year's roster, where N was typically 50% of the previous year's roster size. LHGCL never had such a minimum returning players rule until this year. Technically, the LHGCL rule as it now stands would be an "N" rule, with N still being 50%. However, everyone just typically refers to this type of rule as an "N+1" rule, due to the history of these rules in other leagues.

Here is the pertinent section from the LHGCL Rules.

2. General Definitions for League Playing Format and Qualifying
Tournament

a) Teams are invited back into LHGCL for the next soccer year
(“Bye”) according to the playing format below. The spirit of a bye is to
reward returning teams/players for their performance the prior year. A
“team” is generally determined by the team name and club affiliation.
There is no minimum number of players from the previous soccer year
that must be retained by a team to keep a Bye for the club for the next
soccer year. However, there are two situations where a bye would not be
extended to a club based on the team standings from the prior year.

(1) If 75 percent of the players on a team (based on the roster
as of April 1 of the previous soccer year, rounding fractions up to
the next whole number*) leave a team/club to join another
team/club, the league Bye will be awarded to that group of players
with their new team/club, except as outlined in (2.a.2) below. If
this takes place, the Age Division Commissioner must be informed
at the time the roster is submitted.
*Examples:
75% of 14 players = 10.5 = 11 players
75% of 15 players = 11.25 = 12 players
75% of 16 players = 12 players
75% of 17 players = 12.75 = 13 players
75% of 18 players = 13.5 = 14 players

(2) If 50 percent of the players on a team (based on the roster as
of April 1 of the previous soccer year, rounding fractions up to the
next whole number*) are not retained by the team applying for a bye,
the league bye will remain with the club however the Division
placement in the league will be determined by the LHGCL Executive
Board or designated board committee. Appeals to the division
placement will be heard and ruled upon by LHGCL Executive Board
or designated board committee.
*Examples:
50% of 14 players = 7 players
50% of 15 players = 7.5 = 8 players
50% of 16 players = 8 players
50% of 17 players = 8.5 = 9 players
50% of 18 players = 9 = 9 players

Note: If a dispute arises over who has the right to a Bye, the
LHGCL Executive Board will determine whether a Bye exists in
that particular situation and which team/club will receive the Bye.
There is no further appeal allowed on this decision.

There I go assuming the girls are like the boys again...too many years dealing with my older boys soccer, I guess.

This girls side is a political mess. Boys side has its politics too - don't get me wrong...but not to the extent of the girls side as I find out more and more every day. Lake Highlands should stop being the ECDL (Elite Club Dallas League), and be more like Classic League on the boy's side. Determine placement on competitiveness, not politics.

(stepping off my soapbox now)

I wouldn't hold my breath on LHGCL enforcing this rule on any of the big clubs... In the '00s we have already seen the blind eye turned when a lower end D2 team went to take over a D1 bye because they moved to an open slot in a big club. We all thought this rule was in place to prevent that, but I believe there will be very selective enforcement.

Its the golden rule... he who has the gold gets to make the rules...

and in the same 00's a PPL D1 team given an LH D2 slot, albeit within the same club, conveniently bypassing the QT, then getting their butts beat in D2 thereby being relegated. Oh, but not so fast. The first place D3 team being promoted ends up disbanding, so do they then promote the second place D3 team into that spot? God forbid they do that. Nope, they just allowed the relegated team back into D2. Now talk about determining placement by competitiveness, that second place D3 team had just whipped said "relegated" D2 team 4-0 (or was it 4-1?) in summer tourney. Interesting that both 1st and 2nd place D3 teams (who btw earned their way into D3 via QT whilest the other was getting the free pass) in this scenario were smaller clubs and the relegated/non-relegated D2 team who originally got the free pass was an ECNL club.

so looking at the relegation format again, it appears to me that next year there will be 9 D1 teams (8+1 pool winner), 8 D2 teams (2 from D2, 5 losers from D1 pool, and 1 winner from D2 Pool) and D3 will presumably have 10, but they dont say.  But D3 will consist of 2 from D1 (finishers 14 and 15 in D1 drop straight to D3), 2 from D2 (finishers 7 and 8 ) 1 from D3, and 3 losers of D2 Pool.  That makes 8.  So if they go to 10 the following year, 8 D3 teams from the prior year plus any PPL, APL teams will be fighting for 2 D3 open spots.

Yes, except I believe that 14 and 15 in DI fall to DII, not DIII.

But yes, in that the 8 relegated teams, plus PPL and APL will battle for 4 spots.

Congratulations to the current U12 qualifiers - and your reward for finishing 3rd in DIII - will be a return trip to 2 weeks of qualifying.

That is right, only the top 2 finishers in D3 get to remain in the league. No guarantee of promotion as the top finisher gets in the D2 Pool Playoff (4 teams) and only the winner of that gets to D2.

soccerisfun wrote:Yes, except I believe that 14 and 15 in DI fall to DII, not DIII.

But yes, in that the 8 relegated teams, plus PPL and APL will battle for 4 spots.

Congratulations to the current U12 qualifiers - and your reward for finishing 3rd in DIII - will be a return trip to 2 weeks of qualifying.

Yes, my error. so that leaves 4 spots in D3 and 10 teams is D2. Why only 9 in D1??

Question:  Are they going to charge to play in these "Pool Playoffs"?

SocDad wrote:Question:  Are they going to charge to play in these "Pool Playoffs"?

Supposedly yes, in a way. According to the website, LH will be giving rebates to teams that play a reduced number of games than they normally would've played had it been a 10x10x10 team format playing each team twice during the year. If the team, after the pool play, has played less than 18 games for the year including pool play, I would guess that means they will get a rebate proportional to the number of games under 18. We shall see how it actually pans out...

Time to continue this post...

1 thru 8 earn a bye and remain in D1.
9 thru 13, as well as the 1st place of D2, will be placed in two 3 team pools. The winner of the pools will play each other for the final 9th spot in D1.

...Then with pure age changes, there will be an un-even number of teams in each division as some will move up to '03s, some will stay back '04s next year.

and ECNL clubs will take the girls from the top 5 teams in D1, the D1 team will rebuild with D1 and D2 players. D2 will be torn apart with byes given to other club teams. D3 players will fill spots on D2....

All in all a big mess with no regard for the girls or parents. Sooo typical NTX soccer.

May 1st to July 1st this year is going to be a circus.