Safe to say IMO the old format is missed....

JonSneauxTargaryen wrote:Seems like the allure of State Cup, PLD, and probably Vegas Cup and Surf Cup were sacrificed for what?
DA
ECNL
Champions
Composite (is that the same as Champions?)
LHG
JDL

That's a lot of dog on leagues.

DA obviously isn't helping on the boys side when we cant even qualify for WC...
So remind me again why it was necessary for the girls?

Oh well...its a done deal now but I still by right can complain.

and im not hating on DA...just wondering was it necessary?

BigErn wrote:
State Cup and PLD at U14+ have been watered down since the inception of ECNL almost a decade ago.  A major reason ECNL (and now USSDA) was created and has been so successful is because it provides competition/showcase opportunities for top talent on regional/national levels rather than just on a state level.  

Vegas Cup has in the same boat at State Cup since ECNL, and Surf Cup is fine given that it has had ECNL (and now USSDA) divisions.

HomeStretch wrote:I agree the old format was not ideal but it at least groomed competitors. The correlation of full team results to youth programs is unjustified IMO. How many DA players were on the field in mens WC qualifying? How many ECNL players were on field in womens last world cup win?

Judge ecnl by how well YOUTH national teams have done recently against the world. What does their style of play look like on teams stocked with ECNL talent? Men's DA has made some difference ...watch the u17s playing now and they don't play anything like the full men's team [most of them dont anyway].  They didn't make it out of group 2 years ago but they played some of the best kids in the world with several kids out of last u17WC already in first teams in europe.

The 2016 u17 GYNT  OTOH was touted by top drawer as an ecnl juggernaut that would supposedly showcase how ecnl had changed the youth....they lost to Ghana and didn't make it out of bracket.....more importantly...style of play looked like ur typical Sting LH team of old.

DA pay for play and still high cost with tons of travel may not be the answer, but let's stop pretending any evidence Sting style ECNL soccer was taking anyone in the right direction either.

HomeStretch wrote:

BigErn wrote:
State Cup and PLD at U14+ have been watered down since the inception of ECNL almost a decade ago.  A major reason ECNL (and now USSDA) was created and has been so successful is because it provides competition/showcase opportunities for top talent on regional/national levels rather than just on a state level.  

Vegas Cup has in the same boat at State Cup since ECNL, and Surf Cup is fine given that it has had ECNL (and now USSDA) divisions.

This is not true. When ECNL started it was a much smaller league than what it became after years of expansion. It did not immediately consolidate all or even most of the top talent. DTexans were not members of ECNL at its inception.

ALL the high quality ECNL teams at its inception also played USYS events and still competed nationally in the USYS structure. ECNL was created because club owners and DOCs wanted more control over travel soccer than the admins at USYS wanted to give them. It had nothing to do with any lack of competition or showcase opportunities for top talent. It was successful because ECNL and US Club Soccer were superior marketers and business owners compared to USYS admins.  

Surf Cup and other major national tourneys only recently started separating out divisions based on league affiliation. This is also a marketing decision - since most these tournaments are hosted by us club soccer member orgs. Up until very recently, surf cup STILL took the "best of the best" and let them compete against each other in a very well respected application process. This was still the case long after the inception of ECNL.

The only evidence IMO the "new" multi-league formats are better than the old system is access to college coaches is more dispersed. Before, you needed to be good enough to make a good to great team if you wanted to be seen, because only good teams were going to make top levels of showcases and regional/national tournaments. This meant talent would concentrate into only a handful of teams in each market. This also meant more pressure on those teams to win.

Now, parents are given the illusion they can buy exposure by joining any # of leagues with guaranteed exposure. Great players on bad teams can theoretically be identified without having to change to a better team. It's an illusion because coaches are still looking at individual talent and "Great" in the parent eye is often a different assessment in the coach eye, and the new system allows far more parents to leave on the rose colored glasses far longer than they otherwise would've in yesteryear. The new formats are what diluted the natural consolidation that was occurring in the old system, and IMO have also led to greater and greater reliance on early recruiting as college coaches start laying eyeballs on 7th and 8th graders.

DA is a "closed" system, as is ECNL, and unless it addresses costs and travel, it's not likely in the long run to produce any substantially better product than ECNL....IMO

HomeStretch wrote:

BigErn wrote:
State Cup and PLD at U14+ have been watered down since the inception of ECNL almost a decade ago.  A major reason ECNL (and now USSDA) was created and has been so successful is because it provides competition/showcase opportunities for top talent on regional/national levels rather than just on a state level.  

Vegas Cup has in the same boat at State Cup since ECNL, and Surf Cup is fine given that it has had ECNL (and now USSDA) divisions.

This is not true. When ECNL started it was a much smaller league than what it became after years of expansion. It did not immediately consolidate all or even most of the top talent. DTexans were not members of ECNL at its inception.

ALL the high quality ECNL teams at its inception also played USYS events and still competed nationally in the USYS structure. ECNL was created because club owners and DOCs wanted more control over travel soccer than the admins at USYS wanted to give them. It had nothing to do with any lack of competition or showcase opportunities for top talent. It was successful because ECNL and US Club Soccer were superior marketers and business owners compared to USYS admins.  

Surf Cup and other major national tourneys only recently started separating out divisions based on league affiliation. This is also a marketing decision - since most these tournaments are hosted by us club soccer member orgs. Up until very recently, surf cup STILL took the "best of the best" and let them compete against each other in a very well respected application process. This was still the case long after the inception of ECNL.

The only evidence IMO the "new" multi-league formats are better than the old system is access to college coaches is more dispersed. Before, you needed to be good enough to make a good to great team if you wanted to be seen, because only good teams were going to make top levels of showcases and regional/national tournaments. This meant talent would concentrate into only a handful of teams in each market. This also meant more pressure on those teams to win.

Now, parents are given the illusion they can buy exposure by joining any # of leagues with guaranteed exposure. Great players on bad teams can theoretically be identified without having to change to a better team. It's an illusion because coaches are still looking at individual talent and "Great" in the parent eye is often a different assessment in the coach eye, and the new system allows far more parents to leave on the rose colored glasses far longer than they otherwise would've in yesteryear. The new formats are what diluted the natural consolidation that was occurring in the old system, and IMO have also led to greater and greater reliance on early recruiting as college coaches start laying eyeballs on 7th and 8th graders.

DA is a "closed" system, as is ECNL, and unless it addresses costs and travel, it's not likely in the long run to produce any substantially better product than ECNL....IMO

HomeStretch wrote:

BigErn wrote:
State Cup and PLD at U14+ have been watered down since the inception of ECNL almost a decade ago.  A major reason ECNL (and now USSDA) was created and has been so successful is because it provides competition/showcase opportunities for top talent on regional/national levels rather than just on a state level.  

Vegas Cup has in the same boat at State Cup since ECNL, and Surf Cup is fine given that it has had ECNL (and now USSDA) divisions.

This is not true. When ECNL started it was a much smaller league than what it became after years of expansion. It did not immediately consolidate all or even most of the top talent. DTexans were not members of ECNL at its inception.

No sh#t? huh ... It didn't happen immediately?!  And it was smaller when it started than it is now?  

ALL the high quality ECNL teams at its inception also played USYS events and still competed nationally in the USYS structure. ECNL was created because club owners and DOCs wanted more control over travel soccer than the admins at USYS wanted to give them. It had nothing to do with any lack of competition or showcase opportunities for top talent. It was successful because ECNL and US Club Soccer were superior marketers and business owners compared to USYS admins.  

Surf Cup and other major national tourneys only recently started separating out divisions based on league affiliation. This is also a marketing decision - since most these tournaments are hosted by us club soccer member orgs. Up until very recently, surf cup STILL took the "best of the best" and let them compete against each other in a very well respected application process. This was still the case long after the inception of ECNL.

The only evidence IMO the "new" multi-league formats are better than the old system is access to college coaches is more dispersed. Before, you needed to be good enough to make a good to great team if you wanted to be seen, because only good teams were going to make top levels of showcases and regional/national tournaments. This meant talent would concentrate into only a handful of teams in each market. This also meant more pressure on those teams to win.

Now, parents are given the illusion they can buy exposure by joining any # of leagues with guaranteed exposure. Great players on bad teams can theoretically be identified without having to change to a better team. It's an illusion because coaches are still looking at individual talent and "Great" in the parent eye is often a different assessment in the coach eye, and the new system allows far more parents to leave on the rose colored glasses far longer than they otherwise would've in yesteryear. The new formats are what diluted the natural consolidation that was occurring in the old system, and IMO have also led to greater and greater reliance on early recruiting as college coaches start laying eyeballs on 7th and 8th graders.

DA is a "closed" system, as is ECNL, and unless it addresses costs and travel, it's not likely in the long run to produce any substantially better product than ECNL....IMO

JonSneauxTargaryen wrote:

HomeStretch wrote:

BigErn wrote:
State Cup and PLD at U14+ have been watered down since the inception of ECNL almost a decade ago.  A major reason ECNL (and now USSDA) was created and has been so successful is because it provides competition/showcase opportunities for top talent on regional/national levels rather than just on a state level.  

Vegas Cup has in the same boat at State Cup since ECNL, and Surf Cup is fine given that it has had ECNL (and now USSDA) divisions.

This is not true. When ECNL started it was a much smaller league than what it became after years of expansion. It did not immediately consolidate all or even most of the top talent. DTexans were not members of ECNL at its inception.

ALL the high quality ECNL teams at its inception also played USYS events and still competed nationally in the USYS structure. ECNL was created because club owners and DOCs wanted more control over travel soccer than the admins at USYS wanted to give them. It had nothing to do with any lack of competition or showcase opportunities for top talent. It was successful because ECNL and US Club Soccer were superior marketers and business owners compared to USYS admins.  

Surf Cup and other major national tourneys only recently started separating out divisions based on league affiliation. This is also a marketing decision - since most these tournaments are hosted by us club soccer member orgs. Up until very recently, surf cup STILL took the "best of the best" and let them compete against each other in a very well respected application process. This was still the case long after the inception of ECNL.

The only evidence IMO the "new" multi-league formats are better than the old system is access to college coaches is more dispersed. Before, you needed to be good enough to make a good to great team if you wanted to be seen, because only good teams were going to make top levels of showcases and regional/national tournaments. This meant talent would concentrate into only a handful of teams in each market. This also meant more pressure on those teams to win.

Now, parents are given the illusion they can buy exposure by joining any # of leagues with guaranteed exposure. Great players on bad teams can theoretically be identified without having to change to a better team. It's an illusion because coaches are still looking at individual talent and "Great" in the parent eye is often a different assessment in the coach eye, and the new system allows far more parents to leave on the rose colored glasses far longer than they otherwise would've in yesteryear. The new formats are what diluted the natural consolidation that was occurring in the old system, and IMO have also led to greater and greater reliance on early recruiting as college coaches start laying eyeballs on 7th and 8th graders.

DA is a "closed" system, as is ECNL, and unless it addresses costs and travel, it's not likely in the long run to produce any substantially better product than ECNL....IMO

Thats my theory...

In NTX...a year ago ECNL was the exclusive league that was in place for the top talent to get the top training from the top coaches....

Fast forward to now...DA is the exclusive league that is in place for the top talent to get the top training from the top coaches....

Those coaches that coached ECNL last year are DA coaches now....is there something different that they are teaching this year vs last year? if so....why were they holding back?

Other than the mandated USSF curriculum & training standards, game film study, weekly regeneration training, daily individual player physical & mental monitoring, and additional training days ... nothing much different from last year.

What makes GA, as a coach, ECNL worthy now? I know he didn't enroll in any additional courses or clinics this summer. So he is basically training in the same format he has always been.

Not sure anyone can answer this one other than saying GA didn't have the USSF B to coach a DA squad, those DTS parents & kids wanted to participate in ECNL, and HN didn't want to lose all of that talent?

Same for LW....
and CP....what is he teaching those girls that he had last year in JDL different this year since they are DA athletes now?

Both have USSF B ... see above for your answer to, "what is he teaching those girls that he had last year in JDL different this year".

BigErn wrote:

JonSneauxTargaryen wrote:

HomeStretch wrote:

BigErn wrote:
State Cup and PLD at U14+ have been watered down since the inception of ECNL almost a decade ago.  A major reason ECNL (and now USSDA) was created and has been so successful is because it provides competition/showcase opportunities for top talent on regional/national levels rather than just on a state level.  

Vegas Cup has in the same boat at State Cup since ECNL, and Surf Cup is fine given that it has had ECNL (and now USSDA) divisions.

This is not true. When ECNL started it was a much smaller league than what it became after years of expansion. It did not immediately consolidate all or even most of the top talent. DTexans were not members of ECNL at its inception.

ALL the high quality ECNL teams at its inception also played USYS events and still competed nationally in the USYS structure. ECNL was created because club owners and DOCs wanted more control over travel soccer than the admins at USYS wanted to give them. It had nothing to do with any lack of competition or showcase opportunities for top talent. It was successful because ECNL and US Club Soccer were superior marketers and business owners compared to USYS admins.  

Surf Cup and other major national tourneys only recently started separating out divisions based on league affiliation. This is also a marketing decision - since most these tournaments are hosted by us club soccer member orgs. Up until very recently, surf cup STILL took the "best of the best" and let them compete against each other in a very well respected application process. This was still the case long after the inception of ECNL.

The only evidence IMO the "new" multi-league formats are better than the old system is access to college coaches is more dispersed. Before, you needed to be good enough to make a good to great team if you wanted to be seen, because only good teams were going to make top levels of showcases and regional/national tournaments. This meant talent would concentrate into only a handful of teams in each market. This also meant more pressure on those teams to win.

Now, parents are given the illusion they can buy exposure by joining any # of leagues with guaranteed exposure. Great players on bad teams can theoretically be identified without having to change to a better team. It's an illusion because coaches are still looking at individual talent and "Great" in the parent eye is often a different assessment in the coach eye, and the new system allows far more parents to leave on the rose colored glasses far longer than they otherwise would've in yesteryear. The new formats are what diluted the natural consolidation that was occurring in the old system, and IMO have also led to greater and greater reliance on early recruiting as college coaches start laying eyeballs on 7th and 8th graders.

DA is a "closed" system, as is ECNL, and unless it addresses costs and travel, it's not likely in the long run to produce any substantially better product than ECNL....IMO

Thats my theory...

In NTX...a year ago ECNL was the exclusive league that was in place for the top talent to get the top training from the top coaches....

Fast forward to now...DA is the exclusive league that is in place for the top talent to get the top training from the top coaches....

Those coaches that coached ECNL last year are DA coaches now....is there something different that they are teaching this year vs last year? if so....why were they holding back?

Other than the mandated USSF curriculum & training standards, game film study, weekly regeneration training, daily individual player physical & mental monitoring, and additional training days ... nothing much different from last year.

What makes GA, as a coach, ECNL worthy now? I know he didn't enroll in any additional courses or clinics this summer. So he is basically training in the same format he has always been.

Not sure anyone can answer this one other than saying GA didn't have the USSF B to coach a DA squad, those DTS parents & kids wanted to participate in ECNL, and HN didn't want to lose all of that talent?

Same for LW....
and CP....what is he teaching those girls that he had last year in JDL different this year since they are DA athletes now?

Both have USSF B ... see above for your answer to, "what is he teaching those girls that he had last year in JDL different this year".

soccerjack wrote:I don't understand how the mens team is not a reflection of DA and womens team is not a reflection of ECNL, if that's where most of the players were developed.  

I agree with Mr Targaryen, there was nothing wrong with the old system, only I call it what it is....a bunch of knuckleheads that are driven by power and money and don't have a bit of business or strategic sense.  Big Ern could excel in this system and Sho nuff the medicine man, would make a great spokesperson to stay on message.... about nothing.

JonSneauxTargaryen wrote:

BigErn wrote:

JonSneauxTargaryen wrote:

HomeStretch wrote:

BigErn wrote:
State Cup and PLD at U14+ have been watered down since the inception of ECNL almost a decade ago.  A major reason ECNL (and now USSDA) was created and has been so successful is because it provides competition/showcase opportunities for top talent on regional/national levels rather than just on a state level.  

Vegas Cup has in the same boat at State Cup since ECNL, and Surf Cup is fine given that it has had ECNL (and now USSDA) divisions.

This is not true. When ECNL started it was a much smaller league than what it became after years of expansion. It did not immediately consolidate all or even most of the top talent. DTexans were not members of ECNL at its inception.

ALL the high quality ECNL teams at its inception also played USYS events and still competed nationally in the USYS structure. ECNL was created because club owners and DOCs wanted more control over travel soccer than the admins at USYS wanted to give them. It had nothing to do with any lack of competition or showcase opportunities for top talent. It was successful because ECNL and US Club Soccer were superior marketers and business owners compared to USYS admins.  

Surf Cup and other major national tourneys only recently started separating out divisions based on league affiliation. This is also a marketing decision - since most these tournaments are hosted by us club soccer member orgs. Up until very recently, surf cup STILL took the "best of the best" and let them compete against each other in a very well respected application process. This was still the case long after the inception of ECNL.

The only evidence IMO the "new" multi-league formats are better than the old system is access to college coaches is more dispersed. Before, you needed to be good enough to make a good to great team if you wanted to be seen, because only good teams were going to make top levels of showcases and regional/national tournaments. This meant talent would concentrate into only a handful of teams in each market. This also meant more pressure on those teams to win.

Now, parents are given the illusion they can buy exposure by joining any # of leagues with guaranteed exposure. Great players on bad teams can theoretically be identified without having to change to a better team. It's an illusion because coaches are still looking at individual talent and "Great" in the parent eye is often a different assessment in the coach eye, and the new system allows far more parents to leave on the rose colored glasses far longer than they otherwise would've in yesteryear. The new formats are what diluted the natural consolidation that was occurring in the old system, and IMO have also led to greater and greater reliance on early recruiting as college coaches start laying eyeballs on 7th and 8th graders.

DA is a "closed" system, as is ECNL, and unless it addresses costs and travel, it's not likely in the long run to produce any substantially better product than ECNL....IMO

Thats my theory...

In NTX...a year ago ECNL was the exclusive league that was in place for the top talent to get the top training from the top coaches....

Fast forward to now...DA is the exclusive league that is in place for the top talent to get the top training from the top coaches....

Those coaches that coached ECNL last year are DA coaches now....is there something different that they are teaching this year vs last year? if so....why were they holding back?

Other than the mandated USSF curriculum & training standards, game film study, weekly regeneration training, daily individual player physical & mental monitoring, and additional training days ... nothing much different from last year.

What makes GA, as a coach, ECNL worthy now? I know he didn't enroll in any additional courses or clinics this summer. So he is basically training in the same format he has always been.

Not sure anyone can answer this one other than saying GA didn't have the USSF B to coach a DA squad, those DTS parents & kids wanted to participate in ECNL, and HN didn't want to lose all of that talent?

Same for LW....
and CP....what is he teaching those girls that he had last year in JDL different this year since they are DA athletes now?

Both have USSF B ... see above for your answer to, "what is he teaching those girls that he had last year in JDL different this year".

Damn....didnt know they had that.
Is that an FCD thing or DA thing?

BigErn wrote:

soccerjack wrote:I don't understand how the mens team is not a reflection of DA and womens team is not a reflection of ECNL, if that's where most of the players were developed.  

I agree with Mr Targaryen, there was nothing wrong with the old system, only I call it what it is....a bunch of knuckleheads that are driven by power and money and don't have a bit of business or strategic sense.  Big Ern could excel in this system and Sho nuff the medicine man, would make a great spokesperson to stay on message.... about nothing.

Here ya go jack -- For better hallway vision ...

"If your kid participates in the USSDA/ECNL, or has aspirations to, the poor performance in WC qualifying by our USMNT has no bearing in any way on your child, although many on here (like yourself) and on social media have had 'knee jerk' reactions to it.  Much of the current (about to be previous) roster and culture of the USMNT itself weren't part of the USSDA -- look for the USSF to 'clean house' very shortly.  And you can look to the recent successes of some of the YNTs for a more accurate picture of the success of the USSDA.

Regarding the recent failures of the USWNT ... It's just that the rest of the world's little girls are starting to play the game.  Traditional world powers France, Germany, and England are bound to catch up, and this realistically has little to do with the ECNL has done, nor how the USSDA will do in developing our our kids".

If this doesn't help with your lack of understanding jack, I just can't help ya --

OLJW wrote:The problem with the old system was it didn't elimate outliers that managed to succeed through competition. The new system solved that by restricting who gets to compete. Great system, the Chinese have been using it to select leaders for decades.

BigErn wrote:

OLJW wrote:The problem with the old system was it didn't elimate outliers that managed to succeed through competition. The new system solved that by restricting who gets to compete. Great system, the Chinese have been using it to select leaders for decades.

Just as clever as it is adorable OLJW --

The thing is though ... Any of these kids (including your own) are welcome to tryout for any the teams playing in the new system you've so cunningly referred to, and therefore, can indeed still succeed through competition  

BigErn wrote:

JonSneauxTargaryen wrote:

BigErn wrote:

JonSneauxTargaryen wrote:

HomeStretch wrote:

BigErn wrote:
State Cup and PLD at U14+ have been watered down since the inception of ECNL almost a decade ago.  A major reason ECNL (and now USSDA) was created and has been so successful is because it provides competition/showcase opportunities for top talent on regional/national levels rather than just on a state level.  

Vegas Cup has in the same boat at State Cup since ECNL, and Surf Cup is fine given that it has had ECNL (and now USSDA) divisions.

This is not true. When ECNL started it was a much smaller league than what it became after years of expansion. It did not immediately consolidate all or even most of the top talent. DTexans were not members of ECNL at its inception.

ALL the high quality ECNL teams at its inception also played USYS events and still competed nationally in the USYS structure. ECNL was created because club owners and DOCs wanted more control over travel soccer than the admins at USYS wanted to give them. It had nothing to do with any lack of competition or showcase opportunities for top talent. It was successful because ECNL and US Club Soccer were superior marketers and business owners compared to USYS admins.  

Surf Cup and other major national tourneys only recently started separating out divisions based on league affiliation. This is also a marketing decision - since most these tournaments are hosted by us club soccer member orgs. Up until very recently, surf cup STILL took the "best of the best" and let them compete against each other in a very well respected application process. This was still the case long after the inception of ECNL.

The only evidence IMO the "new" multi-league formats are better than the old system is access to college coaches is more dispersed. Before, you needed to be good enough to make a good to great team if you wanted to be seen, because only good teams were going to make top levels of showcases and regional/national tournaments. This meant talent would concentrate into only a handful of teams in each market. This also meant more pressure on those teams to win.

Now, parents are given the illusion they can buy exposure by joining any # of leagues with guaranteed exposure. Great players on bad teams can theoretically be identified without having to change to a better team. It's an illusion because coaches are still looking at individual talent and "Great" in the parent eye is often a different assessment in the coach eye, and the new system allows far more parents to leave on the rose colored glasses far longer than they otherwise would've in yesteryear. The new formats are what diluted the natural consolidation that was occurring in the old system, and IMO have also led to greater and greater reliance on early recruiting as college coaches start laying eyeballs on 7th and 8th graders.

DA is a "closed" system, as is ECNL, and unless it addresses costs and travel, it's not likely in the long run to produce any substantially better product than ECNL....IMO

Thats my theory...

In NTX...a year ago ECNL was the exclusive league that was in place for the top talent to get the top training from the top coaches....

Fast forward to now...DA is the exclusive league that is in place for the top talent to get the top training from the top coaches....

Those coaches that coached ECNL last year are DA coaches now....is there something different that they are teaching this year vs last year? if so....why were they holding back?

Other than the mandated USSF curriculum & training standards, game film study, weekly regeneration training, daily individual player physical & mental monitoring, and additional training days ... nothing much different from last year.

What makes GA, as a coach, ECNL worthy now? I know he didn't enroll in any additional courses or clinics this summer. So he is basically training in the same format he has always been.

Not sure anyone can answer this one other than saying GA didn't have the USSF B to coach a DA squad, those DTS parents & kids wanted to participate in ECNL, and HN didn't want to lose all of that talent?

Same for LW....
and CP....what is he teaching those girls that he had last year in JDL different this year since they are DA athletes now?

Both have USSF B ... see above for your answer to, "what is he teaching those girls that he had last year in JDL different this year".

Damn....didnt know they had that.
Is that an FCD thing or DA thing?

As far as I know it's a DA thing JST --