Formation Question

Anyone ever see or run this? (Diamant-Blitz)

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GK--X---X---X----X
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How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

Just as an aside its a skilled and fast team...not much size at all

LJ wrote:Anyone ever see or run this? (Diamant-Blitz)

-------X-------X
-------------------------X
GK--X--X---X----X
-------------------------X
-------X-------X

How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

It's a 4-4-2 with a holding and an attacking center mid.

Frogfan1 wrote:

LJ wrote:Anyone ever see or run this? (Diamant-Blitz)

-------X-------X
-------------------------X
GK--X--X---X----X
-------------------------X
-------X-------X

How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

It's a 4-4-2 with a holding and an attacking center mid.

Looks like a 4-4-2 with a sweeper and holding defensive mid. To me this is a more of a defensive formation versus offensive. What age is this? As you get older the sweeper is no longer used very much or at all. Teams usually switch to a flat four in the back.

KatCon wrote:

Frogfan1 wrote:

LJ wrote:Anyone ever see or run this? (Diamant-Blitz)

-------X-------X
-------------------------X
GK--X--X---X----X
-------------------------X
-------X-------X

How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

It's a 4-4-2 with a holding and an attacking center mid.

Looks like a 4-4-2 with a sweeper and holding defensive mid. To me this is a more of a defensive formation versus offensive. What age is this? As you get older the sweeper is no longer used very much or at all. Teams usually switch to a flat four in the back.

Unless you are Brazil.

LJ wrote:How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

So it's a 4-4-2 with Attacking and Defending Center Mids and a Sweeper and Stopper in the back.

There are a couple ways to attack this but it really depends on the strengths of your team. If you have the right players on your roster, a 3-5-2 can swing this one in your favor. It would look like this...

-------M----
---B-------F
------M-----
G-B----M---
------M-----
---B-------F
-------M----

This 3-5-2 will force the other team to play wider and should, hopefully, force them out of their shape. Having 5 of your midfielders playing against 4 of theirs should also help you control the style and flow of the game in the middle 3rd. You do need some very talented fullbacks though to pull this off.

The stacked formation of the 4-4-2 you've described will dominate the middle part of the field. It ultimately divides your field down the middle for their benefit. It hurts you by seperating the right side of your team from the left side.

To battle that formation you need to be aggressive going down the flanks more. If your players win the ball, their first reaction should be to get it out of the middle and off to the sides of the field. Your squad needs to work the ball down the sides quickly, where your kids should find a lot more space, and then look to cross the ball into the box.

have forward step in behind the wide defenders as the CB keeps them onside. As they step back it will compress and flatten the backline. But my guess is that the problem you are having since you metioned the attack is that they have way more bodies in the midfield than you. Get narrow and compact in your middle to neautralize the numbers difference and force the play wide

go99 wrote:have forward step in behind the wide defenders as the CB keeps them onside. As they step back it will compress and flatten the backline. But my guess is that the problem you are having since you metioned the attack is that they have way more bodies in the midfield than you. Get narrow and compact in your middle to neautralize the numbers difference and force the play wide

They force the play wide...their set attack formations all start with the left or right mids...they strictly pivot off that line of players down the center of the field.

bigtex75081 wrote:

LJ wrote:How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

So it's a 4-4-2 with Attacking and Defending Center Mids and a Sweeper and Stopper in the back.

There are a couple ways to attack this but it really depends on the strengths of your team. If you have the right players on your roster, a 3-5-2 can swing this one in your favor. It would look like this...

-------M----
---B-------F
------M-----
G-B----M---
------M-----
---B-------F
-------M----

This 3-5-2 will force the other team to play wider and should, hopefully, force them out of their shape. Having 5 of your midfielders playing against 4 of theirs should also help you control the style and flow of the game in the middle 3rd. You do need some very talented fullbacks though to pull this off.

The stacked formation of the 4-4-2 you've described will dominate the middle part of the field. It ultimately divides your field down the middle for their benefit. It hurts you by seperating the right side of your team from the left side.

To battle that formation you need to be aggressive going down the flanks more. If your players win the ball, their first reaction should be to get it out of the middle and off to the sides of the field. Your squad needs to work the ball down the sides quickly, where your kids should find a lot more space, and then look to cross the ball into the box.

Thanks so much...they set their set attacks up with their left or right mids, those outside players will sometimes hold the ball until someone comes out and addresses them...what's the best way to defend the set attacks?

okay so they are playing the offense from the two wings? If that is their offensive plan then make them change and see how they respond. Bobby Rhine coached BB's team and had the top team playing the entire offense down the wings. The CM would get the ball wide and they would then attack down the side. Wash rinse repeat. He told the wide players to stop defending and just get to the sideline and force them back into the middle. He said don't worry about them scoring but mach them score thru the middle of the field. Often youth teams are mechanical and just executing a preset plan. Once he took the plan from them the whole thing fell apart. Take their plan and see if they can think on their own. But if they can then you have to either bring more bodies into the midfield to take away superior numbers or you must stay compact. I did see a boys team win state cup by essentially abandoning the wings but compacting the middle and making sure everything crossed or passed back in was won by them and then trying to counter attack quickly to make them pay for the superior numbers forward

LJ wrote:

bigtex75081 wrote:

LJ wrote:How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

So it's a 4-4-2 with Attacking and Defending Center Mids and a Sweeper and Stopper in the back.

There are a couple ways to attack this but it really depends on the strengths of your team. If you have the right players on your roster, a 3-5-2 can swing this one in your favor. It would look like this...

-------M----
---B-------F
------M-----
G-B----M---
------M-----
---B-------F
-------M----

This 3-5-2 will force the other team to play wider and should, hopefully, force them out of their shape. Having 5 of your midfielders playing against 4 of theirs should also help you control the style and flow of the game in the middle 3rd. You do need some very talented fullbacks though to pull this off.

The stacked formation of the 4-4-2 you've described will dominate the middle part of the field. It ultimately divides your field down the middle for their benefit. It hurts you by seperating the right side of your team from the left side.

To battle that formation you need to be aggressive going down the flanks more. If your players win the ball, their first reaction should be to get it out of the middle and off to the sides of the field. Your squad needs to work the ball down the sides quickly, where your kids should find a lot more space, and then look to cross the ball into the box.

Thanks so much...they set their set attacks up with their left or right mids, those outside players will sometimes hold the ball until someone comes out and addresses them...what's the best way to defend the set attacks?

Okay yeah sounds like they have a script. Let them have the ball wide and isolate them wide and stay compact. Show them a wall of defense and leave no entry pass. See what the winger will do on his own and if you need pressure possible have a forward drop back to apply it. Pulling a midfielder out is what he is waiting for so can then pass into

go99 wrote:okay so they are playing the offense from the two wings? If that is their offensive plan then make them change and see how they respond. Bobby Rhine coached BB's team and had the top team playing the entire offense down the wings. The CM would get the ball wide and they would then attack down the side. Wash rinse repeat. He told the wide players to stop defending and just get to the sideline and force them back into the middle. He said don't worry about them scoring but mach them score thru the middle of the field. Often youth teams are mechanical and just executing a preset plan. Once he took the plan from them the whole thing fell apart. Take their plan and see if they can think on their own. But if they can then you have to either bring more bodies into the midfield to take away superior numbers or you must stay compact. I did see a boys team win state cup by essentially abandoning the wings but compacting the middle and making sure everything crossed or passed back in was won by them and then trying to counter attack quickly to make them pay for the superior numbers forward

That compact and counter game sounds like a winner....

LJ wrote:

bigtex75081 wrote:

LJ wrote:How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

So it's a 4-4-2 with Attacking and Defending Center Mids and a Sweeper and Stopper in the back.

There are a couple ways to attack this but it really depends on the strengths of your team. If you have the right players on your roster, a 3-5-2 can swing this one in your favor. It would look like this...

-------M----
---B-------F
------M-----
G-B----M---
------M-----
---B-------F
-------M----

This 3-5-2 will force the other team to play wider and should, hopefully, force them out of their shape. Having 5 of your midfielders playing against 4 of theirs should also help you control the style and flow of the game in the middle 3rd. You do need some very talented fullbacks though to pull this off.

The stacked formation of the 4-4-2 you've described will dominate the middle part of the field. It ultimately divides your field down the middle for their benefit. It hurts you by seperating the right side of your team from the left side.

To battle that formation you need to be aggressive going down the flanks more. If your players win the ball, their first reaction should be to get it out of the middle and off to the sides of the field. Your squad needs to work the ball down the sides quickly, where your kids should find a lot more space, and then look to cross the ball into the box.

Thanks so much...they set their set attacks up with their left or right mids, those outside players will sometimes hold the ball until someone comes out and addresses them...what's the best way to defend the set attacks?

If you did the 3-5-2, the 3 fullbacks will be busy keeping track of the 2 forwards they're responsible for. Your midfielders will need to understand that they're going to be the primary defenders on the outside and need to keep pressure on the ball whenever it's out there. Your midfielders need to know that they should apply pressure to the opponent immediately whenever they lose the ball. The 2 defensive midfielders that you use need to be strong help-defenders everywhere and that's the expectation. When one defensive center mid goes to help, the other needs to cover their attacking center mid.

"Those outside players will sometimes hold the ball until..." The outside players probably aren't waiting for pressure so much as they're waiting for a good backpost runner to send their cross to. (They won't just stand there with the ball indefinitely.) It sounds like, when you're playing this team, that if you give their outside mids time, they're going to punish you. Your first defender on the ball should pressure the ball but keep it in front of them. Once their help-defender comes they should apply stronger pressure. If your midfielders are working hard and applying immediate pressure so the guy with the ball doesn't have time to lift his head up... and your 2 defensive mids are there to give help defense in case your initial defenders are beaten with the dribble... you should be able to break up many of the outside-in attacks before they happen.

It also sounds like you need to emphasize to your team that if the opposition has the ball then they need to get marked quickly and stay goal-side.

bigtex75081 wrote:

LJ wrote:

bigtex75081 wrote:

LJ wrote:How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

So it's a 4-4-2 with Attacking and Defending Center Mids and a Sweeper and Stopper in the back.

There are a couple ways to attack this but it really depends on the strengths of your team. If you have the right players on your roster, a 3-5-2 can swing this one in your favor. It would look like this...

-------M----
---B-------F
------M-----
G-B----M---
------M-----
---B-------F
-------M----

This 3-5-2 will force the other team to play wider and should, hopefully, force them out of their shape. Having 5 of your midfielders playing against 4 of theirs should also help you control the style and flow of the game in the middle 3rd. You do need some very talented fullbacks though to pull this off.

The stacked formation of the 4-4-2 you've described will dominate the middle part of the field. It ultimately divides your field down the middle for their benefit. It hurts you by seperating the right side of your team from the left side.

To battle that formation you need to be aggressive going down the flanks more. If your players win the ball, their first reaction should be to get it out of the middle and off to the sides of the field. Your squad needs to work the ball down the sides quickly, where your kids should find a lot more space, and then look to cross the ball into the box.

Thanks so much...they set their set attacks up with their left or right mids, those outside players will sometimes hold the ball until someone comes out and addresses them...what's the best way to defend the set attacks?

If you did the 3-5-2, the 3 fullbacks will be busy keeping track of the 2 forwards they're responsible for. Your midfielders will need to understand that they're going to be the primary defenders on the outside and need to keep pressure on the ball whenever it's out there. Your midfielders need to know that they should apply pressure to the opponent immediately whenever they lose the ball. The 2 defensive midfielders that you use need to be strong help-defenders everywhere and that's the expectation. When one defensive center mid goes to help, the other needs to cover their attacking center mid.

"Those outside players will sometimes hold the ball until..." The outside players probably aren't waiting for pressure so much as they're waiting for a good backpost runner to send their cross to. (They won't just stand there with the ball indefinitely.) It sounds like, when you're playing this team, that if you give their outside mids time, they're going to punish you. Your first defender on the ball should pressure the ball but keep it in front of them. Once their help-defender comes they should apply stronger pressure. If your midfielders are working hard and applying immediate pressure so the guy with the ball doesn't have time to lift his head up... and your 2 defensive mids are there to give help defense in case your initial defenders are beaten with the dribble... you should be able to break up many of the outside-in attacks before they happen.

It also sounds like you need to emphasize to your team that if the opposition has the ball then they need to get marked quickly and stay goal-side.

Ok thanks so much...they've def got their best one-on-one attackers as those wings so that support D is huge.

Does anyone know other teams that run this style? I'm asking because this is the team we will nee to beat this season, and no one else we play plays this style. We are U13 girls.

LJ wrote:Does anyone know other teams that run this style? I'm asking because this is the team we will nee to beat this season, and no one else we play plays this style. We are U13 girls.

I guess not, but thanks for all the feedback!

My BB's team played a 3-5-2 for many years in D1 and then Academy. The other posters are correct in most of their comments in that it allows them to control the center of the field. But from your post, it appears as though you are looking for a way to beat it... :-) Here's how: Play a 4-4-2, with speedsters as your outside backs. Bring the outside back up into the attacking third on the side of the attack (depending on which side you brought it up - you will not be able to go up the middle) as a midfielder, and move your outside midfielder into a forward position - essentially changing your formation on the attack to a 3-4-3 on the fly. If possession is lost, the outside back must be able to get back to defend - thus the need to have speed in the outside back positions.

Many very good suggestions on defending against this, but how about attacking it instead. Very few teams use the 3 man back with the deep sweeper because a counter attacking 4-5-1 exposes the defensive weakness of it. Put the lone forward right up with the deep sweeper in effect marking the sweeper. The wings push up agressively occupying the outside backs. This leaves offensive midfielder free to pick diagonal runs up through the middle. If the CB moves to pick up the run of the offensive mid then the holding forward is left unmarked. If the outside backs tuck in then the wings have the outside attack with the forward and offensive mid attacking the box. It would take a very very strong and organized CB with great, not good, rotations from the midfield to defend this attack on a 3 man back.

my2cents wrote:Many very good suggestions on defending against this, but how about attacking it instead. Very few teams use the 3 man back with the deep sweeper because a counter attacking 4-5-1 exposes the defensive weakness of it. Put the lone forward right up with the deep sweeper in effect marking the sweeper. The wings push up agressively occupying the outside backs. This leaves offensive midfielder free to pick diagonal runs up through the middle. If the CB moves to pick up the run of the offensive mid then the holding forward is left unmarked. If the outside backs tuck in then the wings have the outside attack with the forward and offensive mid attacking the box. It would take a very very strong and organized CB with great, not good, rotations from the midfield to defend this attack on a 3 man back.

Super Excellent, how would you attack a team that does the opposite and packs the d?

LJ wrote:

my2cents wrote:Many very good suggestions on defending against this, but how about attacking it instead. Very few teams use the 3 man back with the deep sweeper because a counter attacking 4-5-1 exposes the defensive weakness of it. Put the lone forward right up with the deep sweeper in effect marking the sweeper. The wings push up agressively occupying the outside backs. This leaves offensive midfielder free to pick diagonal runs up through the middle. If the CB moves to pick up the run of the offensive mid then the holding forward is left unmarked. If the outside backs tuck in then the wings have the outside attack with the forward and offensive mid attacking the box. It would take a very very strong and organized CB with great, not good, rotations from the midfield to defend this attack on a 3 man back.

Super Excellent, how would you attack a team that does the opposite and packs the d?

Similar to my last post, but you shift to a 3-4-3 and bring the midfielder and one defender up to make it a 2-4-4. If the other team is indeed packing the back, they will not have more than one forward - 2 defenders should be able to mark. Then it looks like Mexico last night, and you just keep pounding away hoping for a goal, and hope their keeper isn't the next Tim Howard... :-)

Sooooo....there are 11 players from each team on the field right......?!

Do 13 year old's fully understand 'tactics' like the Mexico team? Or is it just more placing players for individual match-up's?

Individual match ups always play a role...you are correct in that statement. Formations are theoretical in nature, but your players have to execute and matchups always play a role... a theory is nothing without execution...thats why we have the phrase "In theory...but, in practice"... :-)

13 year olds can understand it if coached enough - but practicing only twice a week or so, only gets the skills, passing, a little fitness and maybe one formation. Rarely do you see practices devoted to strategy, PKs, or more than just a couple of set plays. Advanced tactics aren't really taught until college when they go from 2 practices a week in club to 3 training sessions a day.

So am I correct in saying that as long as there are 11 players on the field, and the coach moves the fast kid to mark the fast kid.... that is all the tactics they need? Or that the coach time has to instruct? Our coach usually spends more time on individual concepts (I think she call it ) rather than set 4-3-3 or 3-4-3

Skills are a dependency of strategy. Without individual skills (or concepts), a player cannot possibly execute an overall team strategy like complex, situational formations. Unfortunately, with limited practice time, its very rare that a coach has a team that s/he can move past the skills and on to the strategy aspect. Europe and Latin America have schools devoted to soccer - the kids try out before being accepted, and are taught not only the HS curriculum, but they have classes in soccer as well as practices twice a day. If a kid wants to be a world class player from the US, it takes a lot of "independent study".

so in short, you are correct that having the fast kid mark the fast kid is pretty much the prevailing strategy in US youth soccer.

LJ wrote:

my2cents wrote:Many very good suggestions on defending against this, but how about attacking it instead. Very few teams use the 3 man back with the deep sweeper because a counter attacking 4-5-1 exposes the defensive weakness of it. Put the lone forward right up with the deep sweeper in effect marking the sweeper. The wings push up agressively occupying the outside backs. This leaves offensive midfielder free to pick diagonal runs up through the middle. If the CB moves to pick up the run of the offensive mid then the holding forward is left unmarked. If the outside backs tuck in then the wings have the outside attack with the forward and offensive mid attacking the box. It would take a very very strong and organized CB with great, not good, rotations from the midfield to defend this attack on a 3 man back.

Super Excellent, how would you attack a team that does the opposite and packs the d?

If they want to pack everyone into their on box then make sure they stay there and just keep pounding them with attacks on the box area. The mistake many young teams make is throwing everyone forward and contributing to and compounding the congestion in the box that is closing down passing and more importantly shoooting lanes. The defensive backs and outside mids must constantly move the ball around the outside and switch from side to side. Working in this manner with the center mids showing to them and one-two touching it back out should creat quality crossing opportunities. The forwards and mids attacking the goal area on the crosses need to time their runs to be coming onto the ball instead standing there waiting on crosses. One attacker near post, one far post, one or sometimes two making the run to the middle area. The holding mids stay back in front of the circle. The outside backs up creating your banana shaped back line. This way when they clear it all areas are covered . Take possession and start over or if there are strong legs back there step up and shoot. If they have BSF up there looking for long balls then mark up front and back and pinch the outsides in a little. By shear number of organized attacks you will score or they will have to come out and cover.