Formation Question

LJ wrote:

my2cents wrote:Many very good suggestions on defending against this, but how about attacking it instead. Very few teams use the 3 man back with the deep sweeper because a counter attacking 4-5-1 exposes the defensive weakness of it. Put the lone forward right up with the deep sweeper in effect marking the sweeper. The wings push up agressively occupying the outside backs. This leaves offensive midfielder free to pick diagonal runs up through the middle. If the CB moves to pick up the run of the offensive mid then the holding forward is left unmarked. If the outside backs tuck in then the wings have the outside attack with the forward and offensive mid attacking the box. It would take a very very strong and organized CB with great, not good, rotations from the midfield to defend this attack on a 3 man back.

Super Excellent, how would you attack a team that does the opposite and packs the d?

If they want to pack everyone into their on box then make sure they stay there and just keep pounding them with attacks on the box area. The mistake many young teams make is throwing everyone forward and contributing to and compounding the congestion in the box that is closing down passing and more importantly shoooting lanes. The defensive backs and outside mids must constantly move the ball around the outside and switch from side to side. Working in this manner with the center mids showing to them and one-two touching it back out should creat quality crossing opportunities. The forwards and mids attacking the goal area on the crosses need to time their runs to be coming onto the ball instead standing there waiting on crosses. One attacker near post, one far post, one or sometimes two making the run to the middle area. The holding mids stay back in front of the circle. The outside backs up creating your banana shaped back line. This way when they clear it all areas are covered . Take possession and start over or if there are strong legs back there step up and shoot. If they have BSF up there looking for long balls then mark up front and back and pinch the outsides in a little. By shear number of organized attacks you will score or they will have to come out and cover.

It's definately not a defensive formation.. A good team would punish this system, which leaves a lot of space to exploit..I only rate 3 systems as quality setups, provided the team has the players to fill the roles..
4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, and a diamond 4-4-2...

LJ wrote:

my2cents wrote:Many very good suggestions on defending against this, but how about attacking it instead. Very few teams use the 3 man back with the deep sweeper because a counter attacking 4-5-1 exposes the defensive weakness of it. Put the lone forward right up with the deep sweeper in effect marking the sweeper. The wings push up agressively occupying the outside backs. This leaves offensive midfielder free to pick diagonal runs up through the middle. If the CB moves to pick up the run of the offensive mid then the holding forward is left unmarked. If the outside backs tuck in then the wings have the outside attack with the forward and offensive mid attacking the box. It would take a very very strong and organized CB with great, not good, rotations from the midfield to defend this attack on a 3 man back.

Super Excellent, how would you attack a team that does the opposite and packs the d?

Crosses from the wings, and plenty of them. Control possesion, and feed the wings to allow for crossing. Just be sure you have wingers capable of playing in a good ball on the wings.

KatCon wrote:

Frogfan1 wrote:

LJ wrote:Anyone ever see or run this? (Diamant-Blitz)

-------X-------X
-------------------------X
GK--X--X---X----X
-------------------------X
-------X-------X

How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

It's a 4-4-2 with a holding and an attacking center mid.

Looks like a 4-4-2 with a sweeper and holding defensive mid. To me this is a more of a defensive formation versus offensive. What age is this? As you get older the sweeper is no longer used very much or at all. Teams usually switch to a flat four in the back.

Is the "formation" used to give a mindset to the players? The DD had just joined a team where she was better at controlling the ball than most of the others. They were playing a 4-4-2 (flatback) and were trying to make her a center mid, but she acted confused, and complained that she "didn't know how to play center mid." The coach then "switched" to something that looked like the above, called it a 4-3-3, and made her the "center forward" but had her control the ball and feed the outside forwards. The DD relaxed, and the whole thing looked pretty offensive minded. To me it was just a 4-4-2 with a defensive and attacking mid. I never really asked anyone about it, but I've often wondered about some formations, if they weren't invented strictly to give certain players a certain mindset.

JeffM wrote:

KatCon wrote:

Frogfan1 wrote:

LJ wrote:Anyone ever see or run this? (Diamant-Blitz)

-------X-------X
-------------------------X
GK--X--X---X----X
-------------------------X
-------X-------X

How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

It's a 4-4-2 with a holding and an attacking center mid.

Looks like a 4-4-2 with a sweeper and holding defensive mid. To me this is a more of a defensive formation versus offensive. What age is this? As you get older the sweeper is no longer used very much or at all. Teams usually switch to a flat four in the back.

Is the "formation" used to give a mindset to the players? The DD had just joined a team where she was better at controlling the ball than most of the others. They were playing a 4-4-2 (flatback) and were trying to make her a center mid, but she acted confused, and complained that she "didn't know how to play center mid." The coach then "switched" to something that looked like the above, called it a 4-3-3, and made her the "center forward" but had her control the ball and feed the outside forwards. The DD relaxed, and the whole thing looked pretty offensive minded. To me it was just a 4-4-2 with a defensive and attacking mid. I never really asked anyone about it, but I've often wondered about some formations, if they weren't invented strictly to give certain players a certain mindset.

I think you're on track with the mindset thing. In a 4-4-2 Diamond the attacking mid plays behind the two fowards and forms the point of the diamond with the midfield and the base of the triangle with the forwards. In a 4-3-3 that player flips and typically plays in front of the two wide fowards. A team playing a 4-4-2 Diamond can transition to what looks like a 4-3-3 in attack, but that central attacking player has different ressponsibilities and/or mindset. In a 4-3-3 that central player needs to be able to play back to goal and/or hold the ball up if needed. Subtle differences for sure, but from what I've seen one definitely seems harder than the other for young players to do well.

Busby Babes wrote:It's definately not a defensive formation.. A good team would punish this system, which leaves a lot of space to exploit..I only rate 3 systems as quality setups, provided the team has the players to fill the roles..
4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, and a diamond 4-4-2...

How would they punish it?

LJ wrote:

Busby Babes wrote:It's definately not a defensive formation.. A good team would punish this system, which leaves a lot of space to exploit..I only rate 3 systems as quality setups, provided the team has the players to fill the roles..
4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, and a diamond 4-4-2...

How would they punish it?

Why don't you just cut to the chase? Tell us which team you're trying to beat, and which team you're trying to beat them with. We'll tell you whether or not you're going to win. It's U13. Tactics B - Damned. Either you have the horses or you don't.

Just kidding! Great thread LJ. Nice change of pace from what we usually do around here. The input has been good, but I suspect you'd get even more insight if you posted on a coaching forum. Any parent here with enough knowledge to even recognize his/her team is running this system surely has enough sense not to help you brainstorm how to beat it.

Found this forum on the web, went fishing, not from your area.

LJ wrote:Found this forum on the web, went fishing, not from your area.

My apologies. Take a look at http://www.zonalmarking.net

LJ wrote:Anyone ever see or run this? (Diamant-Blitz)

-------X-------X
-------------------------X
GK--X---X---X----X
-------------------------X
-------X-------X

How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

All other things being equal, a 4-4-2 with a flatback defense beats this system handily. Too much is wasted in the middle in the stopper-sweeper variant you're showing. It's congested and the centers will eventually get in each other's way. Even the forwards are too tight in the middle. With a flatback, the defenders on the opposing teams will push it up the sides, to the fast outside mids, and then back through the center for the two forwards and center-mids as they close in for the shots. Any stopper-sweeper system creates a "just in case" player who is otherwise uninvolved in most plays.

Xara wrote:

LJ wrote:Anyone ever see or run this? (Diamant-Blitz)

-------X-------X
-------------------------X
GK--X---X---X----X
-------------------------X
-------X-------X

How would you defend against it? They seem to generate shots like crazy.

All other things being equal, a 4-4-2 with a flatback defense beats this system handily. Too much is wasted in the middle in the stopper-sweeper variant you're showing. It's congested and the centers will eventually get in each other's way. Even the forwards are too tight in the middle. With a flatback, the defenders on the opposing teams will push it up the sides, to the fast outside mids, and then back through the center for the two forwards and center-mids as they close in for the shots. Any stopper-sweeper system creates a "just in case" player who is otherwise uninvolved in most plays.

What is the best way to attack a flatback 4-4-2?

Like everything else, there are plenty of theories and ideas for this. The most effective by far in my opinion is short through balls played at angles past the two center defenders into space. Remember that the flatback is usually going to be in an "L" shape when being attacked from outside and the the three remaining defenders will be flat (thus the name). An attacking mid coming from the ouside can thread a through ball just past her forward who is backed up against the last defender for a quick turn and break on goal. With no sweeper in place, the forward must only beat the one defender.

Xara wrote:Like everything else, there are plenty of theories and ideas for this. The most effective by far in my opinion is short through balls played at angles past the two center defenders into space. Remember that the flatback is usually going to be in an "L" shape when being attacked from outside and the the three remaining defenders will be flat (thus the name). An attacking mid coming from the ouside can thread a through ball just past her forward who is backed up against the last defender for a quick turn and break on goal. With no sweeper in place, the forward must only beat the one defender.

possession, short passes, thru balls at angles... is that even taught in NTX? haha

Androfan wrote:

Xara wrote:Like everything else, there are plenty of theories and ideas for this. The most effective by far in my opinion is short through balls played at angles past the two center defenders into space. Remember that the flatback is usually going to be in an "L" shape when being attacked from outside and the the three remaining defenders will be flat (thus the name). An attacking mid coming from the ouside can thread a through ball just past her forward who is backed up against the last defender for a quick turn and break on goal. With no sweeper in place, the forward must only beat the one defender.

possession, short passes, thru balls at angles... is that even taught in NTX? haha

That's a valid point. My advice was for the OP who claims to be from outside of North Texas. I'll change my suggestions to match the local training:

(1) First of all, every player must be trained at one position and ONE position only. In that position, they should also be specifically trained to do only a maximum of 3 tasks. Nothing too creative, less they cough up the ball.

(2) Play any formation against the OP's illustration as long as the defense is a stopper/sweeper setup. Better to get a 0-0 tie against a better team than try something risky like actually involving the defense into a systematic attack.

(3) Make sure the defenders are big and can kick the crap out of the ball. Tell the defenders to do just that as often as possible.

(4) Don't worry about the girls playing midfield. Put your weeker players there - especially on the outsides. The ball will be played over their heads anyway.

(5) Put the fastest and most kamikaze players at forward and have them wait for the long ball. Teach these players to injure anyone from the opposing team that gets near them - especially the keeper.

This is good for a goal or two each game, and your team will probably never give one up. Have fun.

Xara wrote:

Androfan wrote:

Xara wrote:Like everything else, there are plenty of theories and ideas for this. The most effective by far in my opinion is short through balls played at angles past the two center defenders into space. Remember that the flatback is usually going to be in an "L" shape when being attacked from outside and the the three remaining defenders will be flat (thus the name). An attacking mid coming from the ouside can thread a through ball just past her forward who is backed up against the last defender for a quick turn and break on goal. With no sweeper in place, the forward must only beat the one defender.

possession, short passes, thru balls at angles... is that even taught in NTX? haha

That's a valid point. My advice was for the OP who claims to be from outside of North Texas. I'll change my suggestions to match the local training:

(1) First of all, every player must be trained at one position and ONE position only. In that position, they should also be specifically trained to do only a maximum of 3 tasks. Nothing too creative, less they cough up the ball.

(2) Play any formation against the OP's illustration as long as the defense is a stopper/sweeper setup. Better to get a 0-0 tie against a better team than try something risky like actually involving the defense into a systematic attack.

(3) Make sure the defenders are big and can kick the crap out of the ball. Tell the defenders to do just that as often as possible.

(4) Don't worry about the girls playing midfield. Put your weeker players there - especially on the outsides. The ball will be played over their heads anyway.

(5) Put the fastest and most kamikaze players at forward and have them wait for the long ball. Teach these players to injure anyone from the opposing team that gets near them - especially the keeper.

This is good for a goal or two each game, and your team will probably never give one up. Have fun.

Amen, now all is right in NTX land. ;-)

I guess this is what happens when you have power rankings for 9 year olds....and I am from out of the area...NTX does seem to have a win at all costs mentality, based on what I read here, but I doubt NTX is alone in that.

Androfan wrote:

Xara wrote:

Androfan wrote:

Xara wrote:Like everything else, there are plenty of theories and ideas for this. The most effective by far in my opinion is short through balls played at angles past the two center defenders into space. Remember that the flatback is usually going to be in an "L" shape when being attacked from outside and the the three remaining defenders will be flat (thus the name). An attacking mid coming from the ouside can thread a through ball just past her forward who is backed up against the last defender for a quick turn and break on goal. With no sweeper in place, the forward must only beat the one defender.

possession, short passes, thru balls at angles... is that even taught in NTX? haha

That's a valid point. My advice was for the OP who claims to be from outside of North Texas. I'll change my suggestions to match the local training:

(1) First of all, every player must be trained at one position and ONE position only. In that position, they should also be specifically trained to do only a maximum of 3 tasks. Nothing too creative, less they cough up the ball.

(2) Play any formation against the OP's illustration as long as the defense is a stopper/sweeper setup. Better to get a 0-0 tie against a better team than try something risky like actually involving the defense into a systematic attack.

(3) Make sure the defenders are big and can kick the crap out of the ball. Tell the defenders to do just that as often as possible.

(4) Don't worry about the girls playing midfield. Put your weeker players there - especially on the outsides. The ball will be played over their heads anyway.

(5) Put the fastest and most kamikaze players at forward and have them wait for the long ball. Teach these players to injure anyone from the opposing team that gets near them - especially the keeper.
This is good for a goal or two each game, and your team will probably never give one up. Have fun.

Amen, now all is right in NTX land. ;-)

And when the forwards 'just can't finish anymore', find a bigger, faster more aggressive player.

Meow.

Playing Long ball only get it done. In academy not select, if you plan on winning.

lostntexas wrote:Playing Long ball only get it done. In academy not select, if you plan on winning.

Tell that to Barcelona.