Penalty Kick question for refs

Quick question about a few pk's I saw called this weekend, both with a similar element. First the question..."If a player is taken down in the box, but stands zero chance of getting the ball they pushed too far ahead of themselves (its going out of bounds), is that always a penalty kick?"

This situation occurred in the Fulham vs West Brom game, and again with Alex Morgan in the USWNT vs. Australia. in Morgan's situation there was a sliver of a chance that she might have caught the ball she pushed past the keeper before it went over the endline (but keeper swiped her foot and took her down)... in the other there was no way the Fulham player was getting the ball he pushed forward before the defender wiped him out. In both situations a penalty kick was awarded and converted ( with zero argument). So as a referee is this situation always a given? What if it was a 1v1 with the keeper and the shot was taken (but missed) right before the keeper took down the attacker (unintentional).

Curious how the refs on here view this.

Intent does not play into it since the refs never truly know a player's intention. Whether or not a ball is going out of bounds or is playable does not matter either unless the official is also weighing it to decide if a yellow or red card is also part of the punishment. It comes down to (1) if the referee thinks there was an infraction and (2) the severity of the infraction. So if there is a minor dangerous play such as a high kick by a defensive player in the penalty box, no penalty kick is awarded. Indirect free kick is the call. If it is a more severe penalty which would result in direct kick anywhere else on the field such as a take down from behind, the official has no choice but to award a PK. All of the scenarios you presented seem to suggest a PK would be the right call. It's pretty cut-and-dry. "Bad" foul in the box called against the defense = PK for the offense regardless of whether or not there was a scoring opportunity.

Technically, any foul in the box for which a direct free kick restart is proper should result in a penalty kick. The issue of whether the shot/ball has a chance of going into the net “should” not come into play. For example, an attacker without the ball could get clobbered in the box and that would result in a penalty kick even though they did not have the ball and there was no shooting opportunity. That is the technical response.

What your question really addresses is whether the foul constituted the denial of an obvious goal scoring opportunity, which if appropriate, results in a red card for the offending player and a penalty kick if it is the type of foul that would require a direct kick restart and occurs in the box. For the red card to be shown for such a foul all four of the following must be assessed;
Number of Defenders -- not more than one defender between the foul and the goal, not counting the defender who committed the foul
Distance to goal -- the closer the foul is to the goal, the more likely it is an obvious goalscoring opportunity
Distance to ball -- the attacker must have been close enough to the ball at the time of the foul to have continued playing the ball
Direction of play -- the attacker must have been moving toward the goal at the time the foul was committed

Additionally, offenses which deny a goal-scoring opportunity are not limited to those punishable by a direct free kick or penalty kick but may include technical fouls for which the restart is an indirect free kick.

Now much of the above was directly from a memorandum regarding Law 12. In reality it is often a very tough call and some refs just have a reluctance to grant pk’s and/or red cards, particularly in game changing circumstances. And to complicate it more the ref might apply advantage and if the ball goes in, no red card should be issued but a yellow card could be.

So in short if it is a called direct kick foul in the box the pk is awarded. Hope that helps.

Makes sense.. and like I said, nobody on either team was complaining.... and no cards were issued either (yellow or red) everybody took their medicine and moved on. I somehow had in my head from previous games that the foul might be waved off if the attacker had no chance to get to the ball after they pushed it... foul or not.

I will add that there was discussion that since the foul against Morgan was in a friendly that the ref would probably not throw a card.

The foul against Alex Morgan can be seen here at about the 5:30 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GCtzJY_StA

^^notsontx - the 4D's are USSF directive and are not something that FIFA's are taught to consider. The OP's question involves FIFA and EPL play so USSF directives do not work towards that. For any games played under USSF sanction, what you say is applicable. Thought that should be clarified.

As he also says, a foul in the box is a PK. Or at least it SHOULD be. Where the ball is really doesn't matter. If the ball is at midfield and I as a defender take a swing at you in the box, the restart is a penalty kick with me off for violent conduct. It's the official's job to call fouls, enforce the laws, and get the restart correct.

To the OP - you have to be careful as to what is described as intentional vs what is careless or reckless. Intentional is not in the LOTG, but the latter is. A careless, reckless or excessive foul does not have to be "intentional" to be a foul. And to add fuel to the 'fire', the player can get the ball and still foul the player. **gasp**

Soccerman:
"And to add fuel to the 'fire', the player can get the ball and still foul the player. **gasp**"

This part should be required reading for most soccer parents. How many times have we seen a ref call a dangerous slidetackle or bad keeper challenge in which the ball is the first point of contact, only to hear the sideline screams of "SHE GOT THE BALL FIRST!" I guess anything is fair game for some people as long as the ball is touched first.

Soccerman
You are correct that the 4D's is USSF. Fifa uses:
The direction of the play. (D4)
 The location of the foul.(D2)
 The proximity of the player to the ball. (D3)
 The probability of controlling the ball.(D3)
 The location and number of opponents.(D1)
 The opportunity for the attempt on goal (Sort of a D2-4 combination.)

Generally the same concepts...probably vastly different application on the pitch. Good point on intentional vs what is careless or reckless. Gosh if it was easy just anybody could ref a game and screw it up. To screw it up really well takes training and experience!!

Xara wrote:Soccerman:
"And to add fuel to the 'fire', the player can get the ball and still foul the player. **gasp**"

This part should be required reading for most soccer parents. How many times have we seen a ref call a dangerous slidetackle or bad keeper challenge in which the ball is the first point of contact, only to hear the sideline screams of "SHE GOT THE BALL FIRST!" I guess anything is fair game for some people as long as the ball is touched first.

Then you tell them to read 12.7 (Man, we have an answer for everything)

12.7 TACKLING
The referee must judge whether the tackle of an opponent is fair or whether it is careless, reckless, or
involves the use of excessive force. Making contact with the opponent before the ball when making a
tackle is unfair and should be penalized. However, the fact that contact with the ball was made first
does not automatically mean that the tackle is fair. The declaration by a player that he or she has "got
the ball first" is irrelevant if, while tackling for the ball, the player carelessly, recklessly, or with
excessive force commits any of the prohibited actions.

Boy o Boy! Lot's of stuff I could weigh in on on this one! I'll just say a few things:

Notsontx:

Gosh if it was easy just anybody could ref a game and screw it up. To screw it up really well takes training and experience!!

I disagree with this one. My opinion is that all you have to do to screw up a game is to be inconsistent. My saying and advice to refs is that, "The key to reffing, is to be consistent; whether that means being consistently GOOD or BAD!"

I saw the word "intention, reckless, dangerous, excessive, etc." all over these posts. The problem is that these are all SUBJECTIVE words. The word "intention" is a really poor word to use. Early in my reffing experience, I tried to keep in my mind that I cannot physically jump inside another person's body and know EXACTLY what he is GOING to do. I had to judge the play by the OUTCOME (what actually happened). However, what I have noticed over the years, is that it's pretty easy to see a player looking directly at another player and coming straight at him without even glancing at the ball. Now the player hasn't committed an offense, but the outcome, if it occurs, that I expected might happen, has to be considered. My fellow refs may agree or not.

Soccerman:

As he also says, a foul in the box is a PK. Or at least it SHOULD be. Where the ball is really doesn't matter. If the ball is at midfield and I as a defender take a swing at you in the box, the restart is a penalty kick with me off for violent conduct. It's the official's job to call fouls, enforce the laws, and get the restart correct.

What will further blow your mind are scenarios like:

If an attacker has the ball in the penalty area and is 1v1 with the keeper (assume best case scenario for attacking team) and a fight breaks out at midfield (defending team player swings on attacking team player and/or vice versa. What is the correct restart, if you think there should be any?!

Coach&Ref wrote:

What will further blow your mind are scenarios like:

If an attacker has the ball in the penalty area and is 1v1 with the keeper (assume best case scenario for attacking team) and a fight breaks out at midfield (defending team player swings on attacking team player and/or vice versa. What is the correct restart, if you think there should be any?!

Only the fat/lazy ref is still in defense's half to see the fight.

driftingwolf wrote:

Coach&Ref wrote:

What will further blow your mind are scenarios like:

If an attacker has the ball in the penalty area and is 1v1 with the keeper (assume best case scenario for attacking team) and a fight breaks out at midfield (defending team player swings on attacking team player and/or vice versa. What is the correct restart, if you think there should be any?!

Only the fat/lazy ref is still in defense's half to see the fight.

HAHA! Or a bad trailing AR. Wait! All ARs are good!

Coach&Ref wrote:Boy o Boy! Lot's of stuff I could weigh in on on this one! I'll just say a few things:

Notsontx:

Gosh if it was easy just anybody could ref a game and screw it up. To screw it up really well takes training and experience!!

I disagree with this one. My opinion is that all you have to do to screw up a game is to be inconsistent. My saying and advice to refs is that, "The key to reffing, is to be consistent; whether that means being consistently GOOD or BAD!"

I saw the word "intention, reckless, dangerous, excessive, etc." all over these posts. The problem is that these are all SUBJECTIVE words. The word "intention" is a really poor word to use. Early in my reffing experience, I tried to keep in my mind that I cannot physically jump inside another person's body and know EXACTLY what he is GOING to do. I had to judge the play by the OUTCOME (what actually happened). However, what I have noticed over the years, is that it's pretty easy to see a player looking directly at another player and coming straight at him without even glancing at the ball. Now the player hasn't committed an offense, but the outcome, if it occurs, that I expected might happen, has to be considered. My fellow refs may agree or not.

Soccerman:

As he also says, a foul in the box is a PK. Or at least it SHOULD be. Where the ball is really doesn't matter. If the ball is at midfield and I as a defender take a swing at you in the box, the restart is a penalty kick with me off for violent conduct. It's the official's job to call fouls, enforce the laws, and get the restart correct.

What will further blow your mind are scenarios like:

If an attacker has the ball in the penalty area and is 1v1 with the keeper (assume best case scenario for attacking team) and a fight breaks out at midfield (defending team player swings on attacking team player and/or vice versa. What is the correct restart, if you think there should be any?!

If the ref calls the foul on either team (stopping play to do it of course), then the correct restart would be a direct freekick awarded at the site of the foul. Either way, it would suck to be the offensive player going 1v1 against the keeper.

Xara wrote:

Coach&Ref wrote:Boy o Boy! Lot's of stuff I could weigh in on on this one! I'll just say a few things:

Notsontx:

Gosh if it was easy just anybody could ref a game and screw it up. To screw it up really well takes training and experience!!

I disagree with this one. My opinion is that all you have to do to screw up a game is to be inconsistent. My saying and advice to refs is that, "The key to reffing, is to be consistent; whether that means being consistently GOOD or BAD!"

I saw the word "intention, reckless, dangerous, excessive, etc." all over these posts. The problem is that these are all SUBJECTIVE words. The word "intention" is a really poor word to use. Early in my reffing experience, I tried to keep in my mind that I cannot physically jump inside another person's body and know EXACTLY what he is GOING to do. I had to judge the play by the OUTCOME (what actually happened). However, what I have noticed over the years, is that it's pretty easy to see a player looking directly at another player and coming straight at him without even glancing at the ball. Now the player hasn't committed an offense, but the outcome, if it occurs, that I expected might happen, has to be considered. My fellow refs may agree or not.

Soccerman:

As he also says, a foul in the box is a PK. Or at least it SHOULD be. Where the ball is really doesn't matter. If the ball is at midfield and I as a defender take a swing at you in the box, the restart is a penalty kick with me off for violent conduct. It's the official's job to call fouls, enforce the laws, and get the restart correct.

What will further blow your mind are scenarios like:

If an attacker has the ball in the penalty area and is 1v1 with the keeper (assume best case scenario for attacking team) and a fight breaks out at midfield (defending team player swings on attacking team player and/or vice versa. What is the correct restart, if you think there should be any?!

If the ref calls the foul on either team (stopping play to do it of course), then the correct restart would be a direct freekick awarded at the site of the foul. Either way, it would suck to be the offensive player going 1v1 against the keeper.

ref&coach, you are not alone in using that to judge or establish intent/severity.I have been fortunate to know many refs well enough over the years to chat after games and say " hey what was the deal on that card? It was pretty soft." I have many times gotten " I was close enough to see he never followed the ball, he was looking at the leg the whole time. It was intentional." You are not alone and as a coach I love it. These are the things 95% of the sidelines do not understand.


The other scenario is simple.The CR would be focused on the 1v1 in the box. Any altercation at midfield would be seen only by the trailing AR. Thus the 1V1 would play out and the CR would then card the appropriate player(s) at the next stoppage. Restart would be dependent on what caused the stoppage; goal , out of bounds or fight.

This exact scenario happened this past weekend in MLS. a San Jose player was elbowed/pushed inside the penalty area while the ball was outside the penalty area on the wing. the player went down and the refere never saw it. after a delay, the whistle blew and you can see the referee talking with the AR on the Ref Talk headsets. after a while, the conclusion was that a pk was called for the infraction inside the area, even though the ball was outside. in fact, the Chivas coach was dismissed for arguing (incorrectly) that the restart was not a penalty kick because the ball was outside the area when the foul occurred.

I'd pull the highlight, but i'm lazy right now.

to the OP, a foul is a foul, no matter where it occurs. a foul anywhere on the field is either restarted with a DFK or IFK. if the foul occurs inside the penalty area and normally restarted with a DFK, then it is a penalty kick. it's pretty simple in the LOTG, but people in the game complicate it. that's the fun part though.

my2cents wrote:

Xara wrote:

Coach&Ref wrote:Boy o Boy! Lot's of stuff I could weigh in on on this one! I'll just say a few things:

Notsontx:

Gosh if it was easy just anybody could ref a game and screw it up. To screw it up really well takes training and experience!!

I disagree with this one. My opinion is that all you have to do to screw up a game is to be inconsistent. My saying and advice to refs is that, "The key to reffing, is to be consistent; whether that means being consistently GOOD or BAD!"

I saw the word "intention, reckless, dangerous, excessive, etc." all over these posts. The problem is that these are all SUBJECTIVE words. The word "intention" is a really poor word to use. Early in my reffing experience, I tried to keep in my mind that I cannot physically jump inside another person's body and know EXACTLY what he is GOING to do. I had to judge the play by the OUTCOME (what actually happened). However, what I have noticed over the years, is that it's pretty easy to see a player looking directly at another player and coming straight at him without even glancing at the ball. Now the player hasn't committed an offense, but the outcome, if it occurs, that I expected might happen, has to be considered. My fellow refs may agree or not.

Soccerman:

As he also says, a foul in the box is a PK. Or at least it SHOULD be. Where the ball is really doesn't matter. If the ball is at midfield and I as a defender take a swing at you in the box, the restart is a penalty kick with me off for violent conduct. It's the official's job to call fouls, enforce the laws, and get the restart correct.

What will further blow your mind are scenarios like:

If an attacker has the ball in the penalty area and is 1v1 with the keeper (assume best case scenario for attacking team) and a fight breaks out at midfield (defending team player swings on attacking team player and/or vice versa. What is the correct restart, if you think there should be any?!

If the ref calls the foul on either team (stopping play to do it of course), then the correct restart would be a direct freekick awarded at the site of the foul. Either way, it would suck to be the offensive player going 1v1 against the keeper.

ref&coach, you are not alone in using that to judge or establish intent/severity.I have been fortunate to know many refs well enough over the years to chat after games and say " hey what was the deal on that card? It was pretty soft." I have many times gotten " I was close enough to see he never followed the ball, he was looking at the leg the whole time. It was intentional." You are not alone and as a coach I love it. These are the things 95% of the sidelines do not understand.


The other scenario is simple.The CR would be focused on the 1v1 in the box. Any altercation at midfield would be seen only by the trailing AR. Thus the 1V1 would play out and the CR would then card the appropriate player(s) at the next stoppage. Restart would be dependent on what caused the stoppage; goal , out of bounds or fight.

The second part is not EXACTLY on point. What SHOULD happen technically, but does in 99% of scenarios I have seen. Technically, if the ref is (for example) running a "left", he should be in the quadrant around the play, but in sight of his leading AR. The leading AR is in sight of both the ref AND the trailing AR. Technically, they should mirror one another, so if the scenario did occur and the trailing AR raised his flag immediately, the leading AR should notice it and do the same. Now, I have seen this happen rarely unless it is on substitutions, but nevertheless, is supposed to happen all the time. This allows the CR to have eyes all over the pitch. The CR in the second scenario can always wave his AR off, but this was just to jog your memory about what is SUPPOSED to happen, but rarely does.

Again, this goes back to the importance of the ARs. I love having good ones because my instructions to them pre-game are simple. "I trust you and you have everything in in front of you. Make the call."

Slakemoth wrote:Quick question about a few pk's I saw called this weekend, both with a similar element. First the question..."If a player is taken down in the box, but stands zero chance of getting the ball they pushed too far ahead of themselves (its going out of bounds), is that always a penalty kick?"

This situation occurred in the Fulham vs West Brom game, and again with Alex Morgan in the USWNT vs. Australia. in Morgan's situation there was a sliver of a chance that she might have caught the ball she pushed past the keeper before it went over the endline (but keeper swiped her foot and took her down)... in the other there was no way the Fulham player was getting the ball he pushed forward before the defender wiped him out. In both situations a penalty kick was awarded and converted ( with zero argument). So as a referee is this situation always a given? What if it was a 1v1 with the keeper and the shot was taken (but missed) right before the keeper took down the attacker (unintentional).

Curious how the refs on here view this.

Got this directly from a coworker who is also a LH & PPL ref:
"For fouls in the penalty area, it is the same as the rest on the pitch. If it would have been a foul elsewhere, it is there also. So you are supposed to think "would I call this at midfield". If yes, then if a foul with direct kick consequence, it is a pk. Of course you get more subjective in the penalty area (even though you shouldn't).

If a player trips another player in the middle of the field, then it is a direct kick foul. Having just kicked the ball or inadvertent doesn't matter. It is still a foul. Given that logic, then I would call a foul and since in the penalty area, I would point at the spot - PK"