Penalty question

Can the ref end the half after he/she called a foul, presented a yellow card to a player and then not award the free kick? This was questioned during a game today and most thought the free kick should have been taken before he blew the whistle to end the half but no one really had enough knowledge to confirm this. Just curious.

free kick, yes. Penalty kick, no - half is extended until the kick is completed.

in practice, if there is a free kick by the attackers in the attacking third, the higher level more experienced refs will allow the kick to be taken. add stoppage time for the card and go.

Thanks Upper. It was in the attacking third, the card was against a defender but the foul was not in the box but just outside the 18.

00scrmom wrote:Can the ref end the half after he/she called a foul, presented a yellow card to a player and then not award the free kick?   This was questioned during a game today and most thought the free kick should have been taken before he blew the whistle to end the half but no one really had enough knowledge to confirm this.  Just curious.

they can end a half at anytime. i have seen several halts and/or games called before the team could get off a corner kick after being awarded the opportunity lol

of course. when the time expires and any allowances for stoppage time made, the half is done.

ONLYASOCCERDAD wrote:

00scrmom wrote:Can the ref end the half after he/she called a foul, presented a yellow card to a player and then not award the free kick?   This was questioned during a game today and most thought the free kick should have been taken before he blew the whistle to end the half but no one really had enough knowledge to confirm this.  Just curious.

they can end a half at anytime. i have seen several halts and/or games called before the team could get off a corner kick after being awarded the opportunity lol

A ref can issue a card at any time to anyone, including substitutes on the bench.

A situation that can be example of what you may describing could be that a ref saw a reckless foul that would warrant a yellow card, played advantage(which materialized), called the half and then retroactively went back and booked the player whom was responsible for the original foul.

That's just an example of a situation where something like this could have occurred.

SOCCERDAD, I have seen this before as well and it is a great way to lose control of a game and get a riot started! I have also seen a ref, blow the whistle to end the half, or game, as a ball was screaming towards the net with a 99.999% probability of going in. Technically, it is his prerogative to do so, but he better be wearing riot gear!

  

People get the misconception as well, that they can step off the pitch and the referees then become powerless; that their authority ends on the pitch. In reality, it is that they have authority to do what they want until you or they leave the complex (be reasonable, not really locker rooms in stadiums that have them).

Coach&Ref wrote:

ONLYASOCCERDAD wrote:

00scrmom wrote:Can the ref end the half after he/she called a foul, presented a yellow card to a player and then not award the free kick?   This was questioned during a game today and most thought the free kick should have been taken before he blew the whistle to end the half but no one really had enough knowledge to confirm this.  Just curious.

they can end a half at anytime. i have seen several halts and/or games called before the team could get off a corner kick after being awarded the opportunity lol

A ref can issue a card at any time to anyone, including substitutes on the bench.

A situation that can be example of what you may describing could be that a ref saw a reckless foul that would warrant a yellow card, played advantage(which materialized), called the half and then retroactively went back and booked the player whom was responsible for the original foul.

That's just an example of a situation where something like this could have occurred.

SOCCERDAD, I have seen this before as well and it is a great way to lose control of a game and get a riot started! I have also seen a ref, blow the whistle to end the half, or game, as a ball was screaming towards the net with a 99.999% probability of going in. Technically, it is his prerogative to do so, but he better be wearing riot gear!


  

People get the misconception as well, that they can step off the pitch and the referees then become powerless; that their authority ends on the pitch. In reality, it is that they have authority to do what they want until you or they leave the complex (be reasonable, not really locker rooms in stadiums that have them).

yes sir ANYTIME! i witnessed a high school girls coach receive a red card, 10 minutes after game had ended, as he relentlessly argued his point. he later resigned as coach

Coach&Ref wrote:

ONLYASOCCERDAD wrote:

00scrmom wrote:Can the ref end the half after he/she called a foul, presented a yellow card to a player and then not award the free kick?   This was questioned during a game today and most thought the free kick should have been taken before he blew the whistle to end the half but no one really had enough knowledge to confirm this.  Just curious.

they can end a half at anytime. i have seen several halts and/or games called before the team could get off a corner kick after being awarded the opportunity lol

A ref can issue a card at any time to anyone, including substitutes on the bench.

A situation that can be example of what you may describing could be that a ref saw a reckless foul that would warrant a yellow card, played advantage(which materialized), called the half and then retroactively went back and booked the player whom was responsible for the original foul.

That's just an example of a situation where something like this could have occurred.

SOCCERDAD, I have seen this before as well and it is a great way to lose control of a game and get a riot started! I have also seen a ref, blow the whistle to end the half, or game, as a ball was screaming towards the net with a 99.999% probability of going in. Technically, it is his prerogative to do so, but he better be wearing riot gear!

  

People get the misconception as well, that they can step off the pitch and the referees then become powerless; that their authority ends on the pitch. In reality, it is that they have authority to do what they want until you or they leave the complex (be reasonable, not really locker rooms in stadiums that have them).

For the case in which the half ended as the shot approached the goal- what happened- did the ball go in the goal or not?

It did, intrinsic. Thank goodness I wasn't reffeeing that game!

SOCCERDAD, that was a weird gesture by the ref. You don't issue cards to coaches. You simply send them off. Either way, it had the same effect! Lol!

Coach&Ref wrote:SOCCERDAD, that was a weird gesture by the ref. You don't issue cards to coaches. You simply send them off. Either way, it had the same effect! Lol!

yes. and to your earlier point. it was after many people had already left the stadium

The ref must have just been continuously getting an ear full and had had it! The paperwork for the report is horrible for the ref to have been so pissed off. Lol!

Thanks for the responses.  So...again, not an expert but the comment about HS has me curious because HS and LH are governed but two different authorities.  Correct me if I am wrong but I thought HS goes by NFHS rules and LH by FIFA laws (modified for youth play).  HS stops when the clock ends no matter what. FIFA has, I guess you could say, a little more subjectivity since the ref can add stoppage time (which btw Ive only witnessed a center ref do maybe 2-3 times in the five years I've watched competitive soccer).  I guess I figured there was a more concrete rule about how they end the halves if no stoppage time is applied.
If not so be it, I guess I've almost always seen, even in professional soccer,  if a foul occurred then the free kick was taken and then the ref blew the whistle. Especially if the attacker had the advantage, which is how it was in this case. I would think he would get a lot less of an earful from the coach and parents if he just let the kick happen.   

Coach&Ref wrote:SOCCERDAD, that was a weird gesture by the ref. You don't issue cards to coaches. You simply send them off. Either way, it had the same effect! Lol!

Coach/Ref.... the more and more I read your posts, the more and more i realize that you're not a ref at all. a referee can ABSOLUTELY issue a card, whether it be yellow or red, to a coach in a High School match. I'm not a referee, but a quick perusal of the UIL rules will tell you that a high school coach gets cards. in Federation matches, bench personnel DO NOT get shown cards, but subs can. This is pretty easy to find in the Laws. Hell, I even looked up the NCAA rules and saw a coach can get a yellow or red in a game.

What pains me most is that you are representing referees on this board like you know the exact answer to every situation in a game and people trust/believe you. Refs have a hard enough time on the field with people that don't know the laws/rules. but then they have to deal with people that listen to you like you know what you're talking about.

you might want to freshen up before you answer the next question asked of you. and by that i mean do a 2 minute Google search and find the right answer. It ain't that hard.

twotone wrote:

Coach&Ref wrote:SOCCERDAD, that was a weird gesture by the ref. You don't issue cards to coaches. You simply send them off. Either way, it had the same effect! Lol!

Coach/Ref.... the more and more I read your posts, the more and more i realize that you're not a ref at all. a referee can ABSOLUTELY issue a card, whether it be yellow or red, to a coach in a High School match. I'm not a referee, but a quick perusal of the UIL rules will tell you that a high school coach gets cards. in Federation matches, bench personnel DO NOT get shown cards, but subs can. This is pretty easy to find in the Laws. Hell, I even looked up the NCAA rules and saw a coach can get a yellow or red in a game.

What pains me most is that you are representing referees on this board like you know the exact answer to every situation in a game and people trust/believe you. Refs have a hard enough time on the field with people that don't know the laws/rules. but then they have to deal with people that listen to you like you know what you're talking about.

you might want to freshen up before you answer the next question asked of you. and by that i mean do a 2 minute Google search and find the right answer. It ain't that hard.

Gentlemen,

Don't forget that as referees we have an ethic that we try to follow!  One is you don't throw your center referee under the bus even if you don't agree with the call.  You politely mention to him at the half or the end of the game about the missed call or the Law that he may have missed.  

True in most cases you try not to give a coach a card.  True, there are situations that you can. One of the simplest ones in HS is being properly equipped.  First card of a player not being properly equipped goes to the coach.

Oh and to answer the question as the whistle on that play. I personally would have at least allowed the kick. You can easily explain to the defending coach that you added 15-30 seconds on the clock for the foul/card. Also, you take into consideration was the score of the game. Was it 0-0 or was the attacking team winning 7-0 and you just wanted to end it.

twotone wrote:

Coach/Ref.... the more and more I read your posts, the more and more i realize that you're not a ref at all. a referee can ABSOLUTELY issue a card, whether it be yellow or red, to a coach in a High School match. I'm not a referee, but a quick perusal of the UIL rules will tell you that a high school coach gets cards. in Federation matches, bench personnel DO NOT get shown cards, but subs can. This is pretty easy to find in the Laws. Hell, I even looked up the NCAA rules and saw a coach can get a yellow or red in a game.

What pains me most is that you are representing referees on this board like you know the exact answer to every situation in a game and people trust/believe you. Refs have a hard enough time on the field with people that don't know the laws/rules. but then they have to deal with people that listen to you like you know what you're talking about.

you might want to freshen up before you answer the next question asked of you. and by that i mean do a 2 minute Google search and find the right answer. It ain't that hard.

If you're not a ref, how could you be so sure C&R doesn't know what he's talking about? I hate it when people argue a straw man! He just stated a ref can card anyone even after the game a few posts earlier, but you're blasting him as if he lacks knowledge. The difference in being a good ref vs just being a ref is navigating the water between what you SHOULD do to manage the game, and what you CAN do according to the laws and rules of the competition.

I agree with about 95 pct of what C&R posts....and I'm a contrarian and enjoy disagreeing just for the hell of it.

twotone wrote:

Coach&Ref wrote:SOCCERDAD, that was a weird gesture by the ref. You don't issue cards to coaches. You simply send them off. Either way, it had the same effect! Lol!

Coach/Ref.... the more and more I read your posts, the more and more i realize that you're not a ref at all. a referee can ABSOLUTELY issue a card, whether it be yellow or red, to a coach in a High School match. I'm not a referee, but a quick perusal of the UIL rules will tell you that a high school coach gets cards. in Federation matches, bench personnel DO NOT get shown cards, but subs can. This is pretty easy to find in the Laws. Hell, I even looked up the NCAA rules and saw a coach can get a yellow or red in a game.

What pains me most is that you are representing referees on this board like you know the exact answer to every situation in a game and people trust/believe you. Refs have a hard enough time on the field with people that don't know the laws/rules. but then they have to deal with people that listen to you like you know what you're talking about.

you might want to freshen up before you answer the next question asked of you. and by that i mean do a 2 minute Google search and find the right answer. It ain't that hard.

Firstly, I don't ref high school. high school has RULES of the GAME rather than LAWS of the GAME. There are many differences.

Secondly, I have always said as it is written out many time in both the LOTG AND Advice to Referees, that it is always IN THE OPINION OF THE REFEREE as to how the situation unfolded.

Thirdly, I have always said that I WASN'T THERE! All I can do is give it my best shot on how it might have been perceived from a person's perspective. That is all ANY ref can do, including Howard Webb.

I've provided a site for people to even go to ask questions to other referees if they want even more clarification.

00scrmom wrote:Thanks for the responses.  So...again, not an expert but the comment about HS has me curious because HS and LH are governed but two different authorities.  Correct me if I am wrong but I thought HS goes by NFHS rules and LH by FIFA laws (modified for youth play).  HS stops when the clock ends no matter what. FIFA has, I guess you could say, a little more subjectivity since the ref can add stoppage time (which btw Ive only witnessed a center ref do maybe 2-3 times in the five years I've watched competitive soccer).  I guess I figured there was a more concrete rule about how they end the halves if no stoppage time is applied.
If not so be it, I guess I've almost always seen, even in professional soccer,  if a foul occurred then the free kick was taken and then the ref blew the whistle. Especially if the attacker had the advantage, which is how it was in this case.  I would think he would get a lot less of an earful from the coach and parents if he just let the kick happen.   

Yes, as you wrote, HS is governed by NFHS rules and LH by FIFA rules modified for youth play.  Yes, in HS, the game ends when the time on the clock expires.  However, the ref stops the clock for penalty kicks, cards, injuries.  

FIFA laws state the duty of the referee to make allowance for time lost for substitutions, assessment and removal of injured players, time wasting, and a catch-all for other common sense causes.   The Laws also state that a half is to be extended to allow a penalty kick to be taken.  Other than these and the stated length of the halves, the act of ending the game or half is not dependent by law (rule) on what is happening during play.

For your scenario, the reality of the situation is that a ref can always find another few seconds to allow the kick to be taken.  However, the ref was technically correct if time was up and he was satisfied that there was to be no additional time.

Its Me wrote:Oh and to answer the question as the whistle on that play. I personally would have at least allowed the kick.  You can easily explain to the defending coach that you added 15-30 seconds on the clock for the foul/card.   Also, you take into consideration was the score of the game.  Was it 0-0 or was the attacking team winning 7-0 and you just wanted to end it.

I would have done the same as you.

I screwed up (sorta) one time that I felt really horrible about that was almost the same situation as that:

We weren't allowed to give ANY stoppage time because the games were running very late. There was a foul outside of the box on the defending team, who was winning 7-0. My ref watch (that starts beeping at three seconds remaining before counting up for stoppage time) starting beeping and I was paranoid because everyone was waiting, so I glanced down at it for a moment, put my whistle to my mouth and blew to signal the end of the match just as the the ball was rolling into the net (but hadn't crossed the line)! The game ended, but wouldn't have made a difference anyway except for pride. What made it worse was that the team that I did that too was coached by my long term friend and Godfather to my kids! LOL!

upper95 wrote:

00scrmom wrote:Thanks for the responses.  So...again, not an expert but the comment about HS has me curious because HS and LH are governed but two different authorities.  Correct me if I am wrong but I thought HS goes by NFHS rules and LH by FIFA laws (modified for youth play).  HS stops when the clock ends no matter what. FIFA has, I guess you could say, a little more subjectivity since the ref can add stoppage time (which btw Ive only witnessed a center ref do maybe 2-3 times in the five years I've watched competitive soccer).  I guess I figured there was a more concrete rule about how they end the halves if no stoppage time is applied.
If not so be it, I guess I've almost always seen, even in professional soccer,  if a foul occurred then the free kick was taken and then the ref blew the whistle. Especially if the attacker had the advantage, which is how it was in this case.  I would think he would get a lot less of an earful from the coach and parents if he just let the kick happen.   

Yes, as you wrote, HS is governed by NFHS rules and LH by FIFA rules modified for youth play.  Yes, in HS, the game ends when the time on the clock expires.  However, the ref stops the clock for penalty kicks, cards, injuries.  

FIFA laws state the duty of the referee to make allowance for time lost for substitutions, assessment and removal of injured players, time wasting, and a catch-all for other common sense causes.   The Laws also state that a half is to be extended to allow a penalty kick to be taken.  Other than these and the stated length of the halves, the act of ending the game or half is not dependent by law (rule) on what is happening during play.

For your scenario, the reality of the situation is that a ref can always find another few seconds to allow the kick to be taken.  However, the ref was technically correct if time was up and he was satisfied that there was to be no additional time.

I agree with that Upper, except for the part of the FIFA, since we are governed by USSF (which is so minor, that it might as well be FIFA, but every time you say the FIFA word in the U.S. to an instructor, they seem to quickly point that out which invariably makes the think, "whatever!"   

I'm ignorant of the HS rules, and never got certified in that because I don't like dual centers, nor standing out in the rain and freezing my butt off during their season!   

The ref that blew the whistle for the game to end scenario was completely going against common sense and shouldn't have been surprised when a massive fight broke out which included a parent who ran up to "seemingly" pull a kid off the pile, but ended up violently kneeing him purposefully in the head! I was the AR on the game, because we rotate centers to give them a break during tourneys when we do tons of back-to-back games and subsequently ended up doing massive paperwork with the CR over this.

Technically, he was right, but went against what I would have done. I don't think he wanted to go to extra time and possible pks, but look what he got instead.  

Thanks again for your insight. I applaud and have much respect for referees of youth sports (not just soccer). Using discretion is never going to please everyone, right?! Someone is always going to disagree even if the law or rule was abided by!

As for this situation, the score was either 1-0 or 2-0, I don't recall but not more than that so the free kick could have been an opportunity to either tie or close the gap going into the second half. Thus the reason for a not so happy coach and some parents.

Interesting discussion. Love the info being spread at this level.