State of Refs

The constant complaints to referees has seemed to have reached a fever. It has prompted me to inquire of the cause for this stronger disdain for the folks entrusted to keep the game flowing and safe for the kids that play. My complaints can be categorized in three main areas.

1. The control complex. There should be a way to communicate with an individual that is civil without a receipt of attitude because a coach questioned a call. The beautiful game is full of emotions and sometimes it results in a coach, parent or player reacting in a way that is not appropriate. A good referee should not spur the issue and should be able to diffuse the situation rather then and fuel to the fire. When someone asks a question most of the time it is not to change the call it is to gain an understanding of your view of the law so we can be prepared in the event of a similar infraction.

2. Consistency. (See end of 1) I think that is really the issue, in the event of calling the game similarly throughout the match. Basically were asking for the referees to have a memory. If in one instance you are going to call a “soft foul” then do so for both teams.

3. Denial of guilt. I understand that you are going to miss a call as I believe I will have a substitution error. Refs need to recognize that they will miss a call I can live with that and it’s easier to respect the ref that is big enough to say my bad I missed that one then the ref that (see 1) has the control complex. I expect the refs to miss calls here and there, the ref must also understand those that see those from their vantage point may react negatively to the perceived missed call. No need to get upset again all that does is add fuel to the fire as stated in 1.

February is Black History month, March is Hispanic Heritage, we need a month for Ref Appreciation. (or maybe just a day) I understand your job is hard and coaches, parents and players don’t make it any easier. If you’re a ref reading this understand that no disrespect is meant by the above e-mail and I know how much you work. So the above opinions are that of my own and should not affect my teams or my club. (unless of course you happen to be at one of my games and we get to improve on the above three points)

Problem - referees have no accountability. Even when a referee blatently mis-applies the laws of the game, there is absolutely no recourse...sure, there is the appeals process...but that is just to say there is one. They never change a result or overturn a card. (of course, the laws state that if a ref makes such an error, the entire match should be replayed, which the associations do NOT want to do). Coaches and parents, when faced with these injustices feel that the only recourse is to rectify the situation immediately, or it will affect the outcome, as again, there is no recourse. When one side has all the power, and the other is backed in the corner with no escape, it becomes a fight, a la the art of war. The system needs to give "injured parties" an opportunity to "surrender" and still save face.

I like to propose solutions instead of just complaining, so here goes: We had a referee once with my older boys team that was very vocal and very communicative to the players and sidelines. On a questionable throw, he said loudly "I saw a double hit". When a slide tackle that got "all ball" was called as a foul, the ref loudly stated "you can't come in with your cleats up, son", signaling that the call was actually for dangerous play, and not a contact foul. Before the parents and coaches could start to complain, the ref was already stating what he SAW. The game was very tight, very physical, and was a championship game in a tournament...emotions were high, but the ref never lost control of the players or the parents/coaches. If all refs were encouraged/instructed to be talkative, it might make a difference. Instead, we get the power hungry ones that first ignore the complaints, then argue back, then retaliate against the complaining parent's teams by calling bogus fouls and making the situation worse.

As your kids get older, and more advanced, the refs will get better. And you will become wiser. And all live happily ever after in the end.

Remember, this is youth soccer. Not the World Cup. We should not expect consistent officiating when most of it is judgement. That stuff gets weeded out as you move up the ranks. Just like any other sport.

Of course, I have to remind myself of that as well.

4-4-2-Diamond wrote:As your kids get older, and more advanced, the refs will get better. And you will become wiser. And all live happily ever after in the end.

That's a pipe dream. My dd is now U18 and they haven't gotten any better. I am wiser and happy though.

We need a "State of Parents" thread.

Gunners wrote:We need a "State of Parents" thread.

like. like.
yes. twice.

They never change a result or overturn a card.

I know, A first, but I did see a ref in a game overturn a red card. Crazy, but true. The foul was not a hard foul, and in my opinion, did not deserve a red card. After the center ref had talked to the side ref, the ref pulled out a yellow card, then motioned for the girl to come back on the field. It was a first for me, but I was glad to see a ref correct his mistake.

4-4-2-Diamond wrote:As your kids get older, and more advanced, the refs will get better. And you will become wiser. And all live happily ever after in the end.

This is true. That is why I only ref from u15/16 up.

The younger ages will find old/fat refs who are NEVER "around the play", but rather ref from the center circle You will see grade 9 teenage ARs that are clueless, quite frankly. Those kids are easily rattled by parents and coaches and make even more mistakes.

The ancient centers on the pitch, who wear all the knee braces, are usually curmudgeons who are tired of listening to anything from anybody. These are the guys/gals who will just throw people and coaches out quite a bit.

A "good ref" will be someone who can establish a rapport with the players BEFORE the match and explain how he runs the game. I usually gather the players around as well as the coach to lay out my expectations. It's EXTREMELY important to have the coach in on the instructions. I usually try to use humor both before and during the match. Before the match I will say something to the effect of, "I will use my voice a LOT during the game. I also don't want to hear any complaining about fouls, etc. You may not see me, but I might: not think there was a foul, or perhaps am playing advantage." I also ask them if there is a person on the team who has NO temper and they usually point out one guy/girl. I tell him/her, where everyone can hear that if he/she is seeing something that neither I nor my ARs am, then come up to me in a calm manner and let me know so I can be more aware of what to look for. I usually use an example for guys like, "If you see someone flirting with you or maybe pulling your ponytail, then just let me know." They all get a laugh out of it and it really helps establish that rapport. Most importantly, the COACH knows how I will be conducting the game.

During the match, it is important to really be NEAR the play WITHOUT being involved in it. The worst part is having a longball played from the back to a forward that runs like a cheetah! I have to run like crazy, but that has paid off. One of the best compliments I received was from a U19 coach who said, "Great game ref. The thing I really liked about you was that you were around the play at all times." That actually meant a lot to me.

Using the style I have (loud voice to control the match, humor towards players, letting them know my expectations, etc.) has led me to give VERY few cards in all the years I have been reffing. I have NEVER had a fight break out when I was the Center (knock on wood)! LOL!

People need to understand that every ref has his/her own style. Some refs see a foul early in the game and immediately produce a card. Their style of thinking is that they need to set an early precedence of how he expects the game to be played. My problem with that is that if you start that way, you have to do it the ENTIRE match and to both sides. Plus, teams that hate each other or who are getting physical at the end of matches to try to get the win, will often be sent off or a fight will break out on occasion.

Other refs let a LOT go. Their mentality is to "just let the kids play". The problem with this is that quite a few of those same refs will talk very little during the match. This leads to angry parents, coaches and players. Also, it invites quick escalations of physicality which can often lead to fights. By the time the ref has to produce a card, the game is usually out of control.

What I haven't mentioned are the ARs. Having great ARs are really the key to having a good match. Even if you are the greatest Center in the NTX area, having horrible ARs can cause you a LOT of headaches. I always pray that I am teamed with good ARs when I am the Center.

Anyways, as a longtime ref, I just wanted to share my opinions with y'all and shed some light on what types of refs are out there and possibly what to expect as your child gets older.

Coach&Ref

That is exactly what I think a referee should do. That makes the game enjoyable for you as well as the players and spectators. Communication is the key to understanding. I do know there are good refs out there and I will file a report after each game both positive and negative. I don't know where the report goes. But I think refs need to be made aware when they do a good job as well. So Coach&Ref. Excellent job and keep up the good work.

Coach&Ref, if we had more like you things would be much better.

The silent / defensive ones are who seem to get the most complaints.

At any level of any sport ref calls are just part of the game, like lines on the field. There are more bad calls at the younger ages, when the players are learning the game and the refs are too. Gets a bit better as you get older, every step up the food chain gets a bit better on both sides. Parents learn more about what's going on also. In the long run it all evens out in my opinion. Getting overworked about calls is like trying to change the weather. Good luck.

Marvelousmar wrote:The constant complaints to referees has seemed to have reached a fever. It has prompted me to inquire of the cause for this stronger disdain for the folks entrusted to keep the game flowing and safe for the kids that play. My complaints can be categorized in three main areas.

1. The control complex. There should be a way to communicate with an individual that is civil without a receipt of attitude because a coach questioned a call. The beautiful game is full of emotions and sometimes it results in a coach, parent or player reacting in a way that is not appropriate. A good referee should not spur the issue and should be able to diffuse the situation rather then and fuel to the fire. When someone asks a question most of the time it is not to change the call it is to gain an understanding of your view of the law so we can be prepared in the event of a similar infraction.

2. Consistency. (See end of 1) I think that is really the issue, in the event of calling the game similarly throughout the match. Basically were asking for the referees to have a memory. If in one instance you are going to call a “soft foul” then do so for both teams.

3. Denial of guilt. I understand that you are going to miss a call as I believe I will have a substitution error. Refs need to recognize that they will miss a call I can live with that and it’s easier to respect the ref that is big enough to say my bad I missed that one then the ref that (see 1) has the control complex. I expect the refs to miss calls here and there, the ref must also understand those that see those from their vantage point may react negatively to the perceived missed call. No need to get upset again all that does is add fuel to the fire as stated in 1.

February is Black History month, March is Hispanic Heritage, we need a month for Ref Appreciation. (or maybe just a day) I understand your job is hard and coaches, parents and players don’t make it any easier. If you’re a ref reading this understand that no disrespect is meant by the above e-mail and I know how much you work. So the above opinions are that of my own and should not affect my teams or my club. (unless of course you happen to be at one of my games and we get to improve on the above three points)

Get over yourself. Coach's like you are the reason for ref's "spur the issue" or "add fuel to the fire". While I've seen you, your parents, and your players in action recently, I firmly believe that the attitude and disciplines of the coach dictate those of is players and spectators. You/your team's attitudes and actions towards the refs and your opponents are distasteful, deragatory, and completely unnecessary. For you to get on a soap box about how you respect the ref's and are only looking for an understanding to the issue is flat out hypocritical. You want to know why they act the way they do towards you? Watch a full replay from a few games of your actions, your players actions, and your parents/spectators. Actions speak much louder then words, but even then you won't be objective enough to gain and understanding.

Easy, fancy finding your attack on me to a simple question. One that if you could read or watched the games regularly seems to be an issue in North Texas. For some reason you feel it necessary to attack me, my team and my kids without having the ability to contact me personally when I laid out an olive branch towards you. Coaches have received comments today from the league related to these same issues so to say “get over myself” as though I am the only one who feels this way seems to be somewhat ignorant. As stated before I am man enough to admit when I make a mistake and apologize for them I am not perfect never said I am and I try to go forward. Some in this world let one situation drive them forever, I hope and pray one day you have the ability to read and watch with open eyes. If I am the reason with my two teams as you say, then the 300 other complaints that the leagues receive is really odd. Or I truly need to get over myself since somehow I have effected everyone in North Texas who seem to have the same issues. No soap box just a question. A truthful question. Easy you don’t know me and I don’t know you, I embrace opportunities for improvement because it is just a game and I think we should try to make it better for the refs as well as the players. Easy, I am a man that likes to use facts to back up my arguments, you seem to run from facts and choose to use hearsay. I can present folks that have coached against me, refs that have called my games and have a fair discussion. Do I have parents that are over the top yes like most teams in North Texas do.? Do we try to address them? Ask around on my team and you know I do. Easy I hope one day you will have the courage to face me man to man with facts rather than via a forum. Currently I doubt that because that wouldn’t be Easy it’s much easier to hide behind the computer then solve a situation. I am looking for solutions that’s all I am trying to do. Have a good one and I look forward to a call from you one of these days. But I am not waiting by my phone since again that wouldn’t be Easy. Actions do speak louder then words and if my actions are distasteful, I would like you to present some evidence of my actions that you find as such. I find that in comparison to most I am fair to refs and communicate appropriately. We have to be able to communicate without getting defensive. Just because someone asks a question of a ref doesn't mean that they are attacking the ref. Have a good one and you have my number.

Coach&Ref wrote:

4-4-2-Diamond wrote:As your kids get older, and more advanced, the refs will get better. And you will become wiser. And all live happily ever after in the end.

This is true. That is why I only ref from u15/16 up.

The younger ages will find old/fat refs who are NEVER "around the play", but rather ref from the center circle You will see grade 9 teenage ARs that are clueless, quite frankly. Those kids are easily rattled by parents and coaches and make even more mistakes.

The ancient centers on the pitch, who wear all the knee braces, are usually curmudgeons who are tired of listening to anything from anybody. These are the guys/gals who will just throw people and coaches out quite a bit.

A "good ref" will be someone who can establish a rapport with the players BEFORE the match and explain how he runs the game. I usually gather the players around as well as the coach to lay out my expectations. It's EXTREMELY important to have the coach in on the instructions. I usually try to use humor both before and during the match. Before the match I will say something to the effect of, "I will use my voice a LOT during the game. I also don't want to hear any complaining about fouls, etc. You may not see me, but I might: not think there was a foul, or perhaps am playing advantage." I also ask them if there is a person on the team who has NO temper and they usually point out one guy/girl. I tell him/her, where everyone can hear that if he/she is seeing something that neither I nor my ARs am, then come up to me in a calm manner and let me know so I can be more aware of what to look for. I usually use an example for guys like, "If you see someone flirting with you or maybe pulling your ponytail, then just let me know." They all get a laugh out of it and it really helps establish that rapport. Most importantly, the COACH knows how I will be conducting the game.

During the match, it is important to really be NEAR the play WITHOUT being involved in it. The worst part is having a longball played from the back to a forward that runs like a cheetah! I have to run like crazy, but that has paid off. One of the best compliments I received was from a U19 coach who said, "Great game ref. The thing I really liked about you was that you were around the play at all times." That actually meant a lot to me.

Using the style I have (loud voice to control the match, humor towards players, letting them know my expectations, etc.) has led me to give VERY few cards in all the years I have been reffing. I have NEVER had a fight break out when I was the Center (knock on wood)! LOL!

People need to understand that every ref has his/her own style. Some refs see a foul early in the game and immediately produce a card. Their style of thinking is that they need to set an early precedence of how he expects the game to be played. My problem with that is that if you start that way, you have to do it the ENTIRE match and to both sides. Plus, teams that hate each other or who are getting physical at the end of matches to try to get the win, will often be sent off or a fight will break out on occasion.

Other refs let a LOT go. Their mentality is to "just let the kids play". The problem with this is that quite a few of those same refs will talk very little during the match. This leads to angry parents, coaches and players. Also, it invites quick escalations of physicality which can often lead to fights. By the time the ref has to produce a card, the game is usually out of control.

What I haven't mentioned are the ARs. Having great ARs are really the key to having a good match. Even if you are the greatest Center in the NTX area, having horrible ARs can cause you a LOT of headaches. I always pray that I am teamed with good ARs when I am the Center.

Anyways, as a longtime ref, I just wanted to share my opinions with y'all and shed some light on what types of refs are out there and possibly what to expect as your child gets older.

Way to dump on your fellow Refs...

Where do you suppose the young Ref's you spoke badly of learn and become better Refs??

I have Ref'd with you before and you do not "always" do the older games... You mention how other Ref's are bad in so many ways, but say that you are a good Ref. Sounds like the Coach in you. Meaning: you try to Ref like you would like to see Refs do it as a coach. And the few times I've been in your crew, I never seen you huddle both teams up before the game. You are very correct in that the ARs are very important and never get the positve credit, only the negative..

Just know that at least 1 in 3 games the coaches AND the parent's here in txsoccer think you sucked.... Just like the rest of the Refs

For the record here as a fellow referee, it's easy for people to dump on us. You really should know that we really don't care to have the parent's input about foul recognition or which way a throw-in should go, or why that wasn't a card on their dd. We don't care because it only congests the game and we hear all kinds of stuff about that and almost all of the input given is incorrect. Heck, I heard a coach ask for a red card for too many players on the field after a water break the other day. Funny stuff.

For those of you that like to complain about referees - do you also hold your coaches to the same standard of coaching? When they put players in the wrong positions or try bad strategies that don't work and you lose the game because of it, do you make sure they hear you from the sidelines?

Try to learn the game and enjoy watching them play and develop as players and human beings. Stop worrying so much about "bad calls" and wins and losses. In the end, those things don't mean near as much to the kids as your support of them on the field...

/rant

Marvelousmar wrote:Easy, fancy finding your attack on me to a simple question. One that if you could read or watched the games regularly seems to be an issue in North Texas. I've seen more soccer then probably you and 1/2 the parents on your team. Don't assume I'm naive to NTX soccer tendencies.

For some reason you feel it necessary to attack me, my team and my kids without having the ability to contact me personally when I laid out an olive branch towards you. I primarily pointed my finger at you, pointing out that your attitude is reflected by your players and parents, in other words, you're the source. And I told you any time you posted, I would be there to counter if you contradicted your actions.

Coaches have received comments today from the league related to these same issues so to say “get over myself” as though I am the only one who feels this way seems to be somewhat ignorant. That was forwarded to me by our manager as well and it was probably sent out in response to you/your spectators.

As stated before I am man enough to admit when I make a mistake and apologize for them I am not perfect never said I am and I try to go forward. Some in this world let one situation drive them forever, I hope and pray one day you have the ability to read and watch with open eyes. If I am the reason with my two teams as you say, then the 300 other complaints that the leagues receive is really odd. Or I truly need to get over myself since somehow I have effected everyone in North Texas who seem to have the same issues. No soap box just a question. A truthful question. Easy you don’t know me and I don’t know you, I embrace opportunities for improvement because it is just a game and I think we should try to make it better for the refs as well as the players. Easy, I am a man that likes to use facts to back up my arguments, you seem to run from facts and choose to use hearsay. I can present folks that have coached against me, refs that have called my games and have a fair discussion. Do I have parents that are over the top yes like most teams in North Texas do.? Do we try to address them? BLAH BLAH BLAH - more soap box

Ask around on my team and you know I do. I did after our discussion and mention it below

Easy I hope one day you will have the courage to face me man to man with facts rather than via a forum. Currently I doubt that because that wouldn’t be Easy it’s much easier to hide behind the computer then solve a situation. I'll be happy to face you, but I'm not going out of my way for a fruitless conversation with an unobjective individual suffering from tunnelvision - I'm here to rebuke you and inform others.

I am looking for solutions that’s all I am trying to do. Have a good one and I look forward to a call from you one of these days. But I am not waiting by my phone since again that wouldn’t be Easy. Actions do speak louder then words and if my actions are distasteful, I would like you to present some evidence of my actions that you find as such. See below

I find that in comparison to most I am fair to refs and communicate appropriately. I'd say more like embarrasing then fair. Never seen a coach with antics as dramatic as yours. And if that's apprpriate communication with the ref, then 99.9% of coach's must be doing it wrong.

We have to be able to communicate without getting defensive. HA HA HA HA. Did you in that game?

Just because someone asks a question of a ref doesn't mean that they are attacking the ref. Have a good one and you have my number.

Trust me, I did my research after our conversations and I asked around to other teams that you played and got similar responses to what I witnessed. Some examples of what I saw:

*You were yelling at the ref constantly, throwing your arms in the air, and complaining about every call against your team - most calls were legit. (this was a common theme when I mentioned your name and team)

*Player gets a yellow card for Dissention to the ref because she thought a LEGIT call was bogus (hmmmmmm...where did she learn that? see above comment).

*Parents from your team running up and down the ENTIRE sideline, hollaring at the refs, and disrupting the opponenets parents sideline.

*Gameplay stopped 3+ times for the ref to have words with you. Most of the time it looked like he was trying to shut you up. Every other game I've seen where that happened, coach was thrown out WELL BEFORE then. Ref's discretion, sure. Disruptive to the girls actually playing the game because of your antics, absolutely.

*Tracked down a couple of the opposing teams parents and asked their thoughts. Only comment I'll mention is that you commented to the ref about your team throwing elbows and getting called for them (and your team throws A LOT of flying elbows) - that they wouldn't be fouls if the team "wasn't a bunch of midgets". This was heard directly by multiple players on that team according to the parents I spoke with. Believe they said the refs response was somethign to the effect that it didn't matter their size, it's still a foul. Thought I heard another comment about you mocking players on that team if they whiffed the ball or made a mistake - that's more third hand info, but I wouldn't put it past you.

Was that enough? In short, I'll just echo to everyone what you say yourself - come out and watch "marvelousmar" do his thing with his Meja teams. Let them decide for themselves. In the mean time, enjoy your soap box.

I am again trying to be civil with you but. But It seems that you enjoy attacking me. I on the other hand will continue to stay the course. Lend out a peaceful olive branch to you. As stated before since it does appear you choose to read what you choose to read. I am the first to appologize when I make a mistake. Now your making stuff up about a game that didn't involve you. Must be your vantage point because I consistently voice my opinion in a respectful way to folks also continue to tell my players to play the game and don't rely on the refs. I also don't want my players talking to the refs. (eve drop on my constant discussions after the game) I seriously think you have me mixed up with someone else. Now you making quotes that don't even come out of my mouth. Calling kids names. Really my boys team is one of the smallest teams out there and my son is one of the smallest kids in the league. So something seems wrong with you and your source. Anyway have a good day I'll continue to pray for you. Since for some reason I must have wronged you though I don't coach your child and have never met you.

I do love the fact that you continue to call me unobjetive and other names I find that comment extremly funny. But then again as stated early you don't know me at all and your beautiful red bolded print continues to support that fact. Best of luck to you.

Marvelousmar wrote:I am again trying to be civil with you but. But It seems that you enjoy attacking me. I on the other hand will continue to stay the course. Lend out a peaceful olive branch to you. As stated before since it does appear you choose to read what you choose to read. I am the first to appologize when I make a mistake. Now your making stuff up about a game that didn't involve you. Must be your vantage point because I consistently voice my opinion in a respectful way to folks also continue to tell my players to play the game and don't rely on the refs. I also don't want my players talking to the refs. (eve drop on my constant discussions after the game) I seriously think you have me mixed up with someone else. Now you making quotes that don't even come out of my mouth. Calling kids names. Really my boys team is one of the smallest teams out there and my son is one of the smallest kids in the league. So something seems wrong with you and your source. Anyway have a good day I'll continue to pray for you. Please don't - save it for prayers on yourself. Since for some reason I must have wronged you though I don't coach your child (You mean it isn't obvious why you haven't?) and have never met you.

I do love the fact that you continue to call me unobjetive and other names I find that comment extremly funny. But then again as stated early you don't know me at all and your beautiful red bolded print continues to support that fact. Best of luck to you.

Give me a break. You asked for examples, and I gave them to you. I stand by what I saw and said, just as those that gave me their opinions do as well (trust me, I questioned that a coach would openly refer to another team as "midgets" - but they're are very animate about what they heard).

Keep living in denial (it's really bad by the way) and lack of accountability as a coach. You know that if you surface with comments again, I'll be there to warn others.

Good luck!

Are you guys gonna meet up in the parking lot after school? If so, please tell me which one so I can come watch the rumble!!!

10sDad wrote:Are you guys gonna meet up in the parking lot after school? If so, please tell me which one so I can come watch the rumble!!!

Nah. Playground-by the swingset. Get your popcorn ready...........

Sounds like Marvelousmar has a stalker.

Well crap. The muffin man figured me out........

Way to dump on your fellow Refs...

Where do you suppose the young Ref's you spoke badly of learn and become better Refs??

I have Ref'd with you before and you do not "always" do the older games... You mention how other Ref's are bad in so many ways, but say that you are a good Ref. Sounds like the Coach in you. Meaning: you try to Ref like you would like to see Refs do it as a coach. And the few times I've been in your crew, I never seen you huddle both teams up before the game. You are very correct in that the ARs are very important and never get the positve credit, only the negative..

Just know that at least 1 in 3 games the coaches AND the parent's here in txsoccer think you sucked.... Just like the rest of the Refs

I have no idea who you are and when and where you have reffed with me. Obviously, I was not started out reffing at the level I said as most refs do not. I actually don't know one ref who was ever immediately certified that started reffing at a higher level, so what you are saying is technically correct, but now wrong. I don't accept games under that level if you "know me". The only caveat to that is that if I am a standby and needed for a u12 or u14 game that no one has shown up for, so if that is the case you are talking about, then there you go. Also, I may be needed to take a lower level game in tournaments, just like I have seen grade 6 or grade 4s do on occasion.

If you have reffed with me, then you know that what I said is EXACTLY how I ref. There has almost NEVER been a coach that has been happy with a game or ref if the coach and parents are just that type that likes to blame a ref for everything and if you have ever Centered, then I think you should know that. As far as your 1 in 3 games record is concerned, that is probably the best thing you can say about me given how many coaches and parents want to blame the refs for the outcome. I challenge you to find me a ref who has a record of reffing games that all parents and coaches think they have done a great job every time. When I line for other refs, I hear almost EVERY game from someone about how bad the center sucked, so that is really a good record for a Center! If you know me, you would know that I have even reffed against the club I coached for and the coach I knew very well said that after the game, he thought it was well reffed, even though they lost on both occasions. Also, I have been asked to and reffed games between teams that absolutely HATED each other because of my style and there hasn't been any problems. I would also like to ask you how many games have you reffed with me that a fight has broken out or there has been ANY incident where I had to break up two players when I was Centering.

I have developed my philosophy over the years on how I ref now because I have both seen and done some of the things I have mentioned. I was never the ref to pull out the cards immediately in my early days, but I was the one who "let the kids play". I found that didn't work for the reasons I gave. That's what led me to change my tactics.

As far as "dumping on my fellow refs" is concerned, let me address the teenagers and grade 9s first. I think being a teen ref is awesome. They love the game and want to experience it in a different manner. They can make some money while doing what they enjoy. The problem with them arises when they get 35-40yo men and women screaming at them for bad calls. They are taught to respect their elders, yet are put in positions that give them ultimate power on the pitch. What they say or do is the law and nothing can change that. I hope you can see the catch 22. A lot of times they get severely rattled and start making even worse calls or let the coach and parents influence them. It takes a STRONG personality to be that young and control a game. This is why a lot of teen refs quit. They can't handle the parents and coaches. This is why I give them instructions before the match that ALWAYS includes the following, "If you hear any remarks directed at you, then raise your flag, call me over and tell me. I will deal with it." I don't allow ANY of my teen ARs get abused. For the most part, this has worked with some success. I have seen a lot of teen refs just not want to report any snide remarks made to them where I can hear them.

As far as the old fat refs are concerned, I'd like to ask you a question. "When have you seen these types of refs reffing a higher level game on a large pitch that get up and down the pitch with the older boys/girls?" I sure haven't seen it. I see them reffing the young ages where the pitch is small and they hardly have to leave the center circle. They also walk to set plays. I'm betting most parents can back me up on this one. I'm not saying they shouldn't be out there, but I'm just letting the parents know what they probably are seeing and why they might be getting frustrated.

Remember, I am just giving my opinion on why parents may be feeling what they are, especially at the younger competitive ages and that as their kids get older, the refs will be more experienced (in general) and will overall be better than what they may be experiencing now. You may have a different opinion, but I'd like you to chime in on the original poster's comments as a fellow ref and give some solace to these parents as to what they may be experiencing from your point of view.

soccersounder, I forgot to address two points you made. First I never said "I" was a good ref. Go re-read my post. I said that a "good ref" will establish a rapport with the team and coach before and during the game. I went on to just give an example of how I try to accomplish this.

Also, the other big issue is that you don't need to be speaking about what other refs think about me. If you knew any better, you would ALWAYS speak for yourself and NEVER for anyone else. You won't get far in any business if you go into your boss and say, "Well, I'm not the only one who thinks this way or everyone else thinks so too!" Speak only for yourself and not for others.

Coach&Ref wrote:

Way to dump on your fellow Refs...

Where do you suppose the young Ref's you spoke badly of learn and become better Refs??

I have Ref'd with you before and you do not "always" do the older games... You mention how other Ref's are bad in so many ways, but say that you are a good Ref. Sounds like the Coach in you. Meaning: you try to Ref like you would like to see Refs do it as a coach. And the few times I've been in your crew, I never seen you huddle both teams up before the game. You are very correct in that the ARs are very important and never get the positve credit, only the negative..

Just know that at least 1 in 3 games the coaches AND the parent's here in txsoccer think you sucked.... Just like the rest of the Refs

I have no idea who you are and when and where you have reffed with me. Obviously, I was not started out reffing at the level I said as most refs do not. I actually don't know one ref who was ever immediately certified that started reffing at a higher level, so what you are saying is technically correct, but now wrong. I don't accept games under that level if you "know me". The only caveat to that is that if I am a standby and needed for a u12 or u14 game that no one has shown up for, so if that is the case you are talking about, then there you go. Also, I may be needed to take a lower level game in tournaments, just like I have seen grade 6 or grade 4s do on occasion.

If you have reffed with me, then you know that what I said is EXACTLY how I ref. There has almost NEVER been a coach that has been happy with a game or ref if the coach and parents are just that type that likes to blame a ref for everything and if you have ever Centered, then I think you should know that. As far as your 1 in 3 games record is concerned, that is probably the best thing you can say about me given how many coaches and parents want to blame the refs for the outcome. I challenge you to find me a ref who has a record of reffing games that all parents and coaches think they have done a great job every time. When I line for other refs, I hear almost EVERY game from someone about how bad the center sucked, so that is really a good record for a Center! If you know me, you would know that I have even reffed against the club I coached for and the coach I knew very well said that after the game, he thought it was well reffed, even though they lost on both occasions. Also, I have been asked to and reffed games between teams that absolutely HATED each other because of my style and there hasn't been any problems. I would also like to ask you how many games have you reffed with me that a fight has broken out or there has been ANY incident where I had to break up two players when I was Centering.

I have developed my philosophy over the years on how I ref now because I have both seen and done some of the things I have mentioned. I was never the ref to pull out the cards immediately in my early days, but I was the one who "let the kids play". I found that didn't work for the reasons I gave. That's what led me to change my tactics.

As far as "dumping on my fellow refs" is concerned, let me address the teenagers and grade 9s first. I think being a teen ref is awesome. They love the game and want to experience it in a different manner. They can make some money while doing what they enjoy. The problem with them arises when they get 35-40yo men and women screaming at them for bad calls. They are taught to respect their elders, yet are put in positions that give them ultimate power on the pitch. What they say or do is the law and nothing can change that. I hope you can see the catch 22. A lot of times they get severely rattled and start making even worse calls or let the coach and parents influence them. It takes a STRONG personality to be that young and control a game. This is why a lot of teen refs quit. They can't handle the parents and coaches. This is why I give them instructions before the match that ALWAYS includes the following, "If you hear any remarks directed at you, then raise your flag, call me over and tell me. I will deal with it." I don't allow ANY of my teen ARs get abused. For the most part, this has worked with some success. I have seen a lot of teen refs just not want to report any snide remarks made to them where I can hear them.

As far as the old fat refs are concerned, I'd like to ask you a question. "When have you seen these types of refs reffing a higher level game on a large pitch that get up and down the pitch with the older boys/girls?" I sure haven't seen it. I see them reffing the young ages where the pitch is small and they hardly have to leave the center circle. They also walk to set plays. I'm betting most parents can back me up on this one. I'm not saying they shouldn't be out there, but I'm just letting the parents know what they probably are seeing and why they might be getting frustrated.

Remember, I am just giving my opinion on why parents may be feeling what they are, especially at the younger competitive ages and that as their kids get older, the refs will be more experienced (in general) and will overall be better than what they may be experiencing now. You may have a different opinion, but I'd like you to chime in on the original poster's comments as a fellow ref and give some solace to these parents as to what they may be experiencing from your point of view.

soccersounder, I forgot to address two points you made. First I never said "I" was a good ref. Go re-read my post. I said that a "good ref" will establish a rapport with the team and coach before and during the game. I went on to just give an example of how I try to accomplish this.

Also, the other big issue is that you don't need to be speaking about what other refs think about me. If you knew any better, you would ALWAYS speak for yourself and NEVER for anyone else. You won't get far in any business if you go into your boss and say, "Well, I'm not the only one who thinks this way or everyone else thinks so too!" Speak only for yourself and not for others.

I appriciate your response.

You ask a question above, my response:

I believe it falls on the Assignor.. I see plenty of 20 something Refs out at PPL. And plenty of the, as you call them, old farts in Classic League. The Assignor knows the age of these Refs and needs to get out and assess... Then make some changes and shuffle his Ref Deck