Referees - I just don't get it...

turftoe9 wrote:Just call the fouls! I don't care if you are a comic!!!

This comes from a person who obviously doesn't understand the concept of ADVANTAGE. There are fouls in games I call, like any other games, but that DON'T require play to be STOPPED. This is why I use my voice and appropriate hand signal to indicate I am playing advantage.

This brings me to an incident that mirrors exactly what you and a couple of other people are saying about "blowing the friggin whistle!"

I had a u16 boys game once. An attacker entered the penalty area from the a diagonal with two defenders on him. One slid and took him out without getting the ball. I waited a couple of seconds because I saw a teammate sprinting in from right outside the box. He ran in and buried the ball. The coach was screaming for a PK the moment he saw the first kid getting taken down.

I awarded the goal and then strolled over to the coach and said, "Would you rather have the goal or the PK?" He shut his mouth after that as well as his parents.

Often, using advantage properly is MUCH better than constantly stopping the game, especially on breakaways.

Watch the pros and see what I am talking about.

Our U8 girl team had a game recently in the league we play in and the team we were playing was undefeated, whereas we had one loss, but our goal count was pretty close. It was obvious that whoever won this game, would win this division. Our team could have really cared less if we won or not as I want to see them develop in their skillset and to see if what we work on in development translates against a good team. The opposing team prior to play, had there girls lined up and the coach was barking orders like it was a Marine boot camp. He was speaking Spanish to them and I don't think he thought this white boy could speak Spanish (which I am fluent in) because he was telling certain players on their team to play our forwards aggressively and to NOT let them get by you right in front of me and the ref. Now granted, he didn't tell them to trip, grab, run-over or tackle our girls, but that is what happened in the game. Remember, this is 8 year old girls!!. Early on in the game, we got a breakaway and a great pass to a player who had one defender to beat. Our forward, did a good cut back and beat the defender. At that point, the defender literally grabbed our forward by the shoulder and arm and dragged her to the ground, thus turning over the ball. Guess what the ref did??? That's right, nothing!! Next, our other forward was tripped when the defender was beaten. What did the ref do? Again, nothing?? Then my DD, playing mid ran down a loose ball and got her ponytail pulled where her head was pulled to the side and she almost fell. Again, Nada from the ref!! Then we scored and the abuse escalated. Finally, I had enough and called the ref over and said we were going to forfeit and walk off right then if nothing was going to be done. The ref explained to me that it was 8 year old girls and the (ref) did not want to call a foul because they are just having fun!!!! I told this ref that it better stop or we will walk and set an appointment with admin to discuss. AT that point, the ref stopped the game and told the opposing teams coach to take her girls to the bench and explain to them they cannot grab, kick, bite or pull ponytails. After about 5 minutes, the game continued and I looked over to the opposing teams coach and in Spanish, told him I heard every thing he told them and that we would see each other again in the office. Needless to say, he looked a bit shocked when I spoke to him.

What this illustrates is the attitude that hard contact in a non-contact sport is tolerated. This was a teen ref and this teen was clueless.  After the office meeting, I was even less enthused by the admin's attitude...lol

Sorry to hear that Fierce. I'm guessing the Admin took the ref's side as is common. Two things you mentioned are quite right. Since teens and older refs (you know what I mean by that) usually ref the young ages and the small pitches, they are very reluctant to give cards for a few reasons. For one, they feel horrible about sending off young players that will have to miss the next game. Plus, imagine the riot that would cause as well. Secondly, kids that age are not really 100% coordinated and some refs give subjective, possible foul calls as unintentional especially when a large player is challenging for a 50/50 ball and the smaller kid who gets launched as a result (it could often be a case of physics! Lol). I agree that intentionally causing harm or USB has to be dealt with immediately and the coach needs to be included in the paperwork afterwards for his behavior.

Rec and academy generally have the lesser experienced, lesser competent referees (that's where they learn!) and the least knowledgeable, more hostile coaches and parents. quite the potentially explosive mix. want better refs? stop running off the kids who have potential and get that mentoring/assessment program going and realize that it has to be a continuing cycle as the better refs will grow and move on to more challenging games. ask an experienced ref to watch a game with you and explain hows and whys. some leagues will ask the Classic assignors for help with playoff games.

Coach&Ref wrote:Sorry to hear that Fierce. I'm guessing the Admin took the ref's side as is common. Two things you mentioned are quite right. Since teens and older refs (you know what I mean by that) usually ref the young ages and the small pitches, they are very reluctant to give cards for a few reasons. For one, they feel horrible about sending off young players that will have to miss the next game. Plus, imagine the riot that would cause as well. Secondly, kids that age are not really 100% coordinated and some refs give subjective, possible foul calls as unintentional especially when a large player is challenging for a 50/50 ball and the smaller kid who gets launched as a result (it could often be a case of physics! Lol). I agree that intentionally causing harm or USB has to be dealt with immediately and the coach needs to be included in the paperwork afterwards for his behavior.

Yes C&F, I didn't expect the kids to be kicked out, nor did I want that, but I did expect the the ref to stop the game and tell the kid to stop grabbing and then give us back our possession that we lost to the foul. None of that happened. This is a rec team that I coach and my DD is also on an academy team in the cfbsal. I don't see much difference. I just hope it gets better as they get older. It can be way too physical on an intentional basis sometimes.

But I can completely agree with you that the ref needs to control the kids on field and what you will not allow. Mainly that dirty play won't be tolerated. Once the kids gets the message, you won't be challenged. I also believe the coach as a real leader and role model, should not be encouraging bad play too.

We have established that good referees rarely (if ever) have to remove a spectator/coach.

So...the way I see it, referees that fail to control the match, end up losing control of the sidelines as well. In most cases, there is a direct relationship.

But - its the spectators fault if they don't agree 100% with an inept referee. In fact, if they speak poorly about the referee after the game to their buddy in the parking lot, and are overheard...they can be banned and fined for complaining to their buddy.

So how do we get good refs?

My 12 yr old dd just started reffing in Allen(ASA), doing U4/5/6 games. Also has done a quickfoot tourney. We paid her money, she passed her class and she's a ref. On Saturdays...no one from ASA has even given a review to let her know what she does well and what she needs to work on or look for.(come to think of it, not sure she has seen a supervisor out on the fields) How can she improve if she doesn't get graded. Now, lucky for my dd, I've been known to critique a ref every once in a while, so I have watched many of her games and offered pointers, told her what she missed or got wrong. I don't want her to be a bad ref like we have all seen, but if I wasn't helping her become better... no one would.

So my point is, the local associations or leagues need to supervise the refs a bit more. I know it's time and money, but I would gladly pay an extra $10 or $20 in league fees if the referee's were mentored, graded, or taught more than just what the $75 class covers.

Correct me if I am wrong...but the tests and training for referees are almost solely about the LOTG, correct?

Perhaps, an organization as highly respected as LHGCL would require referees that want to work their games to take additional training in "soft skills". Like how to recognize potential issues, and resolve them before they have to be cautioned or worse.

Keeping control of the game does not have to be with an iron fist...all a ref has to do is verbalize "I saw...." as he/she makes a questionable call. There is no official hand signal to show the spectators where you saw the ball touch the arm...but if you touch or signal where on the arm they saw the ball touch, it settles things down almost immediately. C&R states he likes to keep a running "loose" dialogue going with the players...that can mean the difference when a player feels the need to retaliate.

Little things can make a huge difference.

Coach&Ref wrote:

turftoe9 wrote:Just call the fouls! I don't care if you are a comic!!!

This comes from a person who obviously doesn't understand the concept of ADVANTAGE. There are fouls in games I call, like any other games, but that DON'T require play to be STOPPED. This is why I use my voice and appropriate hand signal to indicate I am playing advantage.

This brings me to an incident that mirrors exactly what you and a couple of other people are saying about "blowing the friggin whistle!"

I had a u16 boys game once. An attacker entered the penalty area from the a diagonal with two defenders on him. One slid and took him out without getting the ball. I waited a couple of seconds because I saw a teammate sprinting in from right outside the box. He ran in and buried the ball. The coach was screaming for a PK the moment he saw the first kid getting taken down.

I awarded the goal and then strolled over to the coach and said, "Would you rather have the goal or the PK?" He shut his mouth after that as well as his parents.

Often, using advantage properly is MUCH better than constantly stopping the game, especially on breakaways.

Watch the pros and see what I am talking about.

yep...understand advantage perfect thanks...guess you are one of the few refs out there who gets it too

i would rather, in general, that the games be called more strict because it gives an advantage to those trying to play the ball

yep...understand advantage perfect thanks...guess you are one of the few refs out there who gets it too

i would rather, in general, that the games be called more strict because it gives an advantage to those trying to play the ball

Ditto. It also helps keep our daughters out of the emergency room.

boilerjoe_96 wrote:So how do we get good refs?

My 12 yr old dd just started reffing in Allen(ASA), doing U4/5/6 games.  Also has done a quickfoot tourney.  We paid her money, she passed her class and  she's a ref.  On Saturdays...no one from ASA has even given a review to let her know what she does well and what she needs to work on or look for.(come to think of it, not sure she has seen a supervisor out on the fields)  How can she improve if she doesn't get graded.   Now, lucky for my dd, I've been known to critique a ref every once in a while, so I have watched many of her games and offered pointers, told her what she missed or got wrong.  I don't want her to be a bad ref like we have all seen, but if I wasn't helping her become better... no one would.

So my point is, the local associations or leagues need to supervise the refs a bit more.  I know it's time and money, but I would gladly pay an extra $10 or $20 in league fees if the referee's were mentored, graded, or taught more than just what the $75 class covers.

My DD refs (U12 and Down) with Keller and they (Bob & Thomas and Mentors) do an excellent job of mentoring and "grading". I can't say enough of how well they are running the Referee System there. When she refs, I am there to laugh and enjoy the game, especially the youngers. Takes me back.

Tiki-taka wrote:

boilerjoe_96 wrote:So how do we get good refs?

My 12 yr old dd just started reffing in Allen(ASA), doing U4/5/6 games.  Also has done a quickfoot tourney.  We paid her money, she passed her class and  she's a ref.  On Saturdays...no one from ASA has even given a review to let her know what she does well and what she needs to work on or look for.(come to think of it, not sure she has seen a supervisor out on the fields)  How can she improve if she doesn't get graded.   Now, lucky for my dd, I've been known to critique a ref every once in a while, so I have watched many of her games and offered pointers, told her what she missed or got wrong.  I don't want her to be a bad ref like we have all seen, but if I wasn't helping her become better... no one would.

So my point is, the local associations or leagues need to supervise the refs a bit more.  I know it's time and money, but I would gladly pay an extra $10 or $20 in league fees if the referee's were mentored, graded, or taught more than just what the $75 class covers.

My DD refs (U12 and Down) with Keller and they (Bob & Thomas and Mentors) do an excellent job of mentoring and "grading".   I can't say enough of how well they are running the Referee System there.    When she refs, I am there to laugh and enjoy the game, especially the youngers.  Takes me back.  

My BB refs in GLASA and they also do an excellent job of mentoring. Read this article from a couple years ago about an innovative approach to mentoring and coaching referees. They put together a pre-season weekend event of friendlies with young refs experiencing new challenges, but they had an experienced ref on the field running alongside them and helping them in all aspects (positioning, decision making, hand signals, etc.).

http://ntexas.bestsoccerever.com/1011/friendly.html

This is not American football - it is a free flowing game and the officiating is for the players, not the spectators. The signals are for the players and communication between referees. Spectators have absolutely NO standing in the match, regardless of how much money they paid for their DD to play. They are not owed an explanation as to why a foul was called or not called (this does not mean that a ref or A/R will not give a short comment, but it is not a responsibility ). I offer this with no hostility or animosity - simply fact. The rules of North Texas Soccer, local associations and leagues regarding spectator behavior have a lot to do with 1) maintaining a non-hostile environment for the participants and 2) the spectators' proximity to the field, being a couple feet behind the A/R, and access to the crew's pregame/halftime/postgame spot and their paths for ingress and egress. People are responsible for their own behavior and a referee's supposed "wrong" call is not an excuse. Every referee and league/association has a different level of tolerance, but threats and direct interference in the match are clearly over the line. Handling people is an art, and some refs are more adept and have more experience than others.

For those of you who are going into select soccer, just wait to see how crazy people get when losing a game or goal differential means relegation to a lower division or league, which generally means the team implodes. Of course it is the ref's fault that they didn't score a goal in the 3 qualifying games.

A graduate of a ref class needs about a dozen games to be comfortable with managing games and a whole lot longer to hone foul-recognition skills, learn how to manage coaches/players, maintain flow of a game, and must readjust to every level as they move up.

boilerjoe_96 wrote:
So my point is, the local associations or leagues need to supervise the refs a bit more.  I know it's time and money, but I would gladly pay an extra $10 or $20 in league fees if the referee's were mentored, graded, or taught more than just what the $75 class covers.

Yes, mentoring and assessment, and yes, it costs money and/or someone else's time as the directors of leagues and local associations are volunteers.

upper95 wrote:
A graduate of a ref class needs about a dozen games to be comfortable with managing games and a whole lot longer to hone foul-recognition skills, learn how to manage coaches/players, maintain flow of a game, and must readjust to every  level as they move up.

This is great. I think you need quite a bit more games and each game helps. There are weird habits that you have to break as a new referee. In the beginning, as a coach and a spectator, I would get on the pitch and watch the game as such. For example, I would be thinking things like, "Wow, if that left winger would make the run into the box right now, he could get on a great cross. And, who is this other player marking?" Suddenly, something would happen and I the thoughts that would come into my mind were along the lines of, "Oh crap! What do I do?" Even with the field training and course acing, it doesn't change your mentality overnight.

Other habits that are hard to break are things like not watching the ball in the air. As soon as the ball is launched, you have to turn and look towards where the ball is generally going to land so you can be watching the players jockeying for position the whole time. This allows you to see fouls that you would have missed while looking up and tracking the ball like spectators and coaches do. Also, running backwards and sideways to talk to your ARs and team coaches is odd. You can't just jog over to them and have a quick word. If you do that, you will lose sight of the players on the pitch for a moment and that is prime time for them to retaliate against one another since your back is turned.

The trick is to do what I think you should do in the beginning, and what I still do now, which is to always ask questions of your ARs or CR at both halftime and the end of the game. Questions always have to do with, "What did I miss? What did you think of that call? Did you see anything I didn't?"

I ALWAYS ask to be paired with a grade 4-6 if they happen to be around. They will give you great feedback, especially if you ask.

You never know when you are going to be assessed, so you always need to ref as if you are. If the assessor happens to be around, I will ask if he can watch a bit of my game and give me some feedback. If he has time, he generally will and the feedback will be constructive.

NEVER think you know everything, because you don't. Don't be afraid to ask. You will never put anyone out, especially if they know you are sincerely asking for their feedback. Even if you have 2-3x more experience than another ref, still solicit his feedback as well. A lot of times, they will look at me quizzically as if thinking, "Why is he asking me when he has way more experience?" Yet, you wouldn't believe some of the good advice even they have, especially when relating how they handled situations previously and what worked for them.

I hope this helps.

upper95 wrote:This is not American football - it is a free flowing game and the officiating is for the players, not the spectators.  The signals are for the players and communication between referees.  Spectators have absolutely NO standing in the match, regardless of how much money they paid for their DD to play.  They are not owed an explanation as to why a foul was called or not called (this does not mean that a ref or A/R will not give a short comment, but it is not a responsibility ).   I offer this with no hostility or animosity - simply fact. The rules of North Texas Soccer, local associations and leagues regarding spectator behavior have a lot to do with 1) maintaining a non-hostile environment for the participants and 2) the spectators' proximity to the field, being a couple feet behind the A/R, and access to the crew's pregame/halftime/postgame spot and their paths for ingress and egress.  People are responsible for their own behavior and a referee's supposed "wrong" call is not an excuse.   Every referee and  league/association has a different level of tolerance, but threats and direct interference in the match are clearly over the line.  Handling people is an art, and some refs are more adept and have more experience than others.

For those of you who are going into select soccer, just wait to see how crazy people get when losing a game or goal differential means relegation to a lower division or league, which generally means the team implodes.  Of course it is the ref's fault that they didn't score a goal in the 3 qualifying games.

A graduate of a ref class needs about a dozen games to be comfortable with managing games and a whole lot longer to hone foul-recognition skills, learn how to manage coaches/players, maintain flow of a game, and must readjust to every  level as they move up.

There's the ref I was looking for!    

Listen here, buddy...when I sign my kid up for select soccer, it does not mean that you can do whatever you want with my child's welfare without accountability.  It does not mean that I am going to sit idly by if an inept referee refuses or is incapable of controlling a game (seen it too many times to mention).  It does not mean that I will sit idly by when an incompetent referee throws a game a certain direction, and bastardizes the words "fair play" (seen it happen).  I am not going to sit idly by when a referee puts their pride and ego in favor of the safety of the players (seen that happen too).  I am going to say something immediately.

Do spectators at youth games care a "bit more" about the safety of the players?  The lessons of fair play?  Yep!  Why? because they are the PARENTS of the kids on the field.  They are not just some random fans that show up to a pro game.  So...do referees in the youth game need to pander a bit to the parent sideline...absolutely!  The "rules" do not state that you need to, but so many of these parent situations would not happen with a little communication from the referee.  

You and some others have taken this to such an extreme, that it is obvious that you would prefer that parents be banned from all the games.  I dare you to do it.  Ban them all.  No parents allowed to view the games.  Your league would die a quick, yet painful death.

Face it....in ANY youth game, you have to deal with the parents.  Until you get over yourself and realize that...you will continue to have problems.  Like I said before, some "soft skills" and a little communication goes a long way to making it a much more positive experience for everyone.  Be a partner in teaching these kids to love the game of soccer....not an adversary.  Taking the hardline like you want will only end up with the equal & opposite reaction.

i'm not your buddy, guy

Coach&Ref wrote:

Other habits that are hard to break are things like not watching the ball in the air. As soon as the ball is launched, you have to turn and look towards where the ball is generally going to land so you can be watching the players jockeying for position the whole time. This allows you to see fouls that you would have missed while looking up and tracking the ball like spectators and coaches do.

Good coaches and knowledgeable spectators are not watching the ball in the air.   

Wow, 10, someone did a number on you to read and conclude all of that from my post.

Gunner9 wrote:

Coach&Ref wrote:

Other habits that are hard to break are things like not watching the ball in the air. As soon as the ball is launched, you have to turn and look towards where the ball is generally going to land so you can be watching the players jockeying for position the whole time. This allows you to see fouls that you would have missed while looking up and tracking the ball like spectators and coaches do.

Good coaches and knowledgeable spectators are not watching the ball in the air.    

How many of those do you find?   

I'm guessing that if that was the general rule, then there wouldn't be the screaming and spectator/coach insanity.  

Umm..10s dad...u might be underestimating  the influence referees and assignors have in ntx. If your team gets on the wrong side of assignors you're in trouble. And LH has decided throwing parents out and collecting fines is the best way forward. You already know a sensitive ref can take it out on a team, and let's not get into the cozy relationship certain refs have with certain coaches & clubs. It's a snakepit with too much to lose and very little to gain if you enter...I suggest you do your wallet and team a favor and leave the refs be once you get to LH.  

I told an AR last fall...exact words... "You know the score would be tied if you hadn't given away a goal." This was in reference to the AR waving his flag to call a ridiculous foul a yd outside the box when the center was standing 3 yds from the play and called nothing. Nothing there... two players shinguards collided going for a 50/50. Center looks at him with a WTF look then hits  whistle. AR points the flag in direction he's calling the foul and center hesitates a moment, decides to go along with it. Girls on both teams have.puzzled look on the call. Girl shoots it in from 18 out which lead to my comment giving the AR grief 20 minutes later...which apparently hit too close to home. 

AR had the center throw out all the dads out from that corner of the sideline...3 from our team and 1 from opposing team. No cursing, no verbal abuse, no yelling at players...at the time it was relatively quiet. Cost me $150 and a newfound appreciation for just how much of a shady cabal ntx girls select officiating really is. There are some very good refs and very good people on boys side, but enough slime on girls side to distance yourself as much as possible.

4-3-3 wrote:Umm..10s dad...u might be underestimating  the influence referees and assignors have in ntx. If your team gets on the wrong side of assignors you're in trouble. And LH has decided throwing parents out and collecting fines is the best way forward. You already know a sensitive ref can take it out on a team, and let's not get into the cozy relationship certain refs have with certain coaches & clubs. It's a snakepit with too much to lose and very little to gain if you enter...I suggest you do your wallet and team a favor and leave the refs be once you get to LH.  

I told an AR last fall...exact words... "You know the score would be tied if you hadn't given away a goal." This was in reference to the AR waving his flag to call a ridiculous foul a yd outside the box when the center was standing 3 yds from the play and called nothing. Nothing there... two players shinguards collided going for a 50/50. Center looks at him with a WTF look then hits  whistle. AR points the flag in direction he's calling the foul and center hesitates a moment, decides to go along with it. Girls on both teams have.puzzled look on the call. Girl shoots it in from 18 out which lead to my comment giving the AR grief 20 minutes later...which apparently hit too close to home. 

AR had the center throw out all the dads out from that corner of the sideline...3 from our team and 1 from opposing team. No cursing, no verbal abuse, no yelling at players...at the time it was relatively quiet. Cost me $150 and a newfound appreciation for just how much of a shady cabal ntx girls select officiating really is. There are some very good refs and very good people on boys side, but enough slime on girls side to distance yourself as much as possible.

I'm no fan of the refereeing in NTX nor the style of soccer it breeds, but what exactly is the point or what is to be accomplished with your comment 20 minutes after the call?  Can't say that you did not deserve to get tossed.

I have not worn the stripes in a couple of years, but started ref-ing in 1990.  I started running tournaments and leagues in 2000.  Honestly, it was difficult to do both, because I saw the outdoor coaches (and indoor adult players) in my games as potential customers for my tournaments.  Here is what I learned from working games (U5 to Mens 1st division) across NTX:

1.  some assignors value a referee's reliability over ability.
2.  some assignors have job security with their league/tournament/arena and are practically untouchable as long as games are covered.
3.  some referees are working games solely for the money.
4.  some referees hold grudges against coaches.
5.  some coaches hold grudges against referees.
6.  some parents feel they paying dues or bought their player expensive shoes/ball, so they earned the right to be obnoxious to referees.
7.  if in 4, 5, or 6, the party walks up to the field expecting to be annoyed or screwed, it is usually a self-fulfilling prophesy.  If you go hunting a bear, you will probably find a bear.
8.  the mouthiest kid on the field is usually the child of the mouthiest parent(s) on the sideline.
9.  with every decision half of the people will agree and half will not.  When no one agrees, the referees are usually doing something wrong.
10.  if a center referee is hit by the ball once during a game, they are probably maintaining good positioning - hit more than once and they are likely in the way.


I am not condoning any of the above, just my observations.

4-3-3 wrote:Umm..10s dad...u might be underestimating  the influence referees and assignors have in ntx. If your team gets on the wrong side of assignors you're in trouble. And LH has decided throwing parents out and collecting fines is the best way forward. You already know a sensitive ref can take it out on a team, and let's not get into the cozy relationship certain refs have with certain coaches & clubs. It's a snakepit with too much to lose and very little to gain if you enter...I suggest you do your wallet and team a favor and leave the refs be once you get to LH.  

I told an AR last fall...exact words... "You know the score would be tied if you hadn't given away a goal." This was in reference to the AR waving his flag to call a ridiculous foul a yd outside the box when the center was standing 3 yds from the play and called nothing. Nothing there... two players shinguards collided going for a 50/50. Center looks at him with a WTF look then hits  whistle. AR points the flag in direction he's calling the foul and center hesitates a moment, decides to go along with it. Girls on both teams have.puzzled look on the call. Girl shoots it in from 18 out which lead to my comment giving the AR grief 20 minutes later...which apparently hit too close to home. 

AR had the center throw out all the dads out from that corner of the sideline...3 from our team and 1 from opposing team. No cursing, no verbal abuse, no yelling at players...at the time it was relatively quiet. Cost me $150 and a newfound appreciation for just how much of a shady cabal ntx girls select officiating really is. There are some very good refs and very good people on boys side, but enough slime on girls side to distance yourself as much as possible.

Just getting it out of my system before I have to sign the LHGCL behavior supression policy.   
But on a serious note..."we all know...". Yet we are OK with it?
A referee can go to a parent sideline and yell "shut your f'ing mouth", blatently affect the outcome of a match, toss parents that haven't said anything, but the only evidence allowed in a hearing is the referee's account? And that's cool with everybody?

If that's the standard for getting tossed might as well clear the sidelines before every game. There was no point to it...it was a smart remark said with a laugh. I've ref'd before and anyone with that thin a skin has no business being an official. My point was to let 10s dad know it's not going to get any better on the girls side and best thing to do is grin and bear it and feel appreciative if you happen to get a few good ones along the way.

turftoe9 wrote:...Call the fouls and give out the cards. I don't care age they are, that's how you learn. ...

I fully agree Turftoe. We had a game last night where on at least two instances the other team launched themselves at our players, one a forearm to the back of the neck. The ref awarded a tie ball and no foul. And yes, before you think I'm too onesided, yes our kids sometimes foul too. In those instances I am fully on board with our girls getting called "to-the-carpet" for offenses as well.

I flat out think these refs need to use cards, both yellow and red when players play the player not the ball. Cleats up, purposely tripping, knocking down with a sharp forearm to the face, head...all card worthy. We in U11 are getting to the age where some kids are learning how to use their skills and others are not. Thoese who have not tend to rely on their agressivness and physicality. I understand sometimes refs don't see the play, I understand there can be a 50-50 ball, and sometimes we on the sidelines don't totally see everthing. But as a general rule I feel the refs in LHGCL ignore LOTS of opportunities to control the game by not giving out yellow cards. Why? Is it too much paperwork for what they get paid? Is it a hassle? Do they fear the sidelines if they use it?

I wish there was some recourse for this. Where can decent people express a resonable request to those who oversee the Referee body and ask that cards be given out when appropriate?

Anyone....anyone....Bueller?