Referees

I know that this is a much discussed topic but after this last weekend's tournament games I must post my frustration. In two of the games, the captains had to ask a spanish speaking player to come out and translate because none of the refs spoke English so neither team knew what was being said and the refs weren't understanding their hand gestures--they managed to flip the coin but the refs didn't understand what the teams were saying. It happened in two separate games on two different days. The refs should be able to speak with the players and understand what they are saying. I don't think that is asking too much.

Also in the quarter final game, the ref and line judges were all younger than our players--the ref actually flirted with the girls. Not a huge issue I guess but with older refs working the tournament it was "different".

And finally, the ref and line judges need to pay attention to the game…novel idea I know. In our semifinal game the line judge was paying so much attention to a game on another field that he didn't keep up with the game. The opposing team shot and the ball hit the post in the back of the goal and came back out. They were not awarded the goal because the ref said it hit the front post and the line judge wasn't in position or watching our game. It cost the other team that goal--didn't matter in the end but the whole game was officiated like that.

97mom wrote:I know that this is a much discussed topic but after this last weekend's tournament games I must post my frustration. In two of the games, the captains had to ask a spanish speaking player to come out and translate because none of the refs spoke English so neither team knew what was being said and the refs weren't understanding their hand gestures--they managed to flip the coin but the refs didn't understand what the teams were saying. It happened in two separate games on two different days. The refs should be able to speak with the players and understand what they are saying. I don't think that is asking too much.

Also in the quarter final game, the ref and line judges were all younger than our players--the ref actually flirted with the girls. Not a huge issue I guess but with older refs working the tournament it was "different".

And finally, the ref and line judges need to pay attention to the game…novel idea I know. In our semifinal game the line judge was paying so much attention to a game on another field that he didn't keep up with the game. The opposing team shot and the ball hit the post in the back of the goal and came back out. They were not awarded the goal because the ref said it hit the front post and the line judge wasn't in position or watching our game. It cost the other team that goal--didn't matter in the end but the whole game was officiated like that.

I'm not going to address the second point, because I was not there, nor was I the ref, but the first point was unacceptable to me.

We had a CR for our last game who didn't speak a lick of English. In fact, only one of his ARs could speak broken English. This is unacceptable because there can be limited communication with the players, coaches, trainers.

Even on the Grade 7 test there is a question I remember that was very close to this:

How should a referee be able to properly communicate during a match:
a) verbal and non-verbal communication
b) cards
c) whistle
d) all of the above

The answer is d. One of those requirements was NOT met.

This is only in response to the language issue, nothing else...

I Ref and I completely disagree!

"Verbal" Communication in "soccer" can be just a dozen words or so...

In this case, the PLD Tournament brought in a group of Referee's from Juarez, Mexico. Cool stuff.. Worst case, your dd/bb has a Ref who did not speak English for a game... That is far out-weighed by the experience of having an International Ref participating in your kids game. The DGI, brings in Europe-an and other International Ref's that do not speak English and the experience has been great there as well..

And Ref/Coach, FIFA requires Refs to speak English and Spanish at that level. Let me ask you, do you think those two languages covers every international game??

On Average your kid may be Referreed 1 in 10 games by a Ref who does not speak much English and most of the time, you do not even know about it.  

Shoot, the best young Ref I know (and we need to support the good young Refs) speaks broken English. I would take him to Ref my DDs game any day

The level of officiating is far below the level of play, even at U-11. I have seen posters stating that the officiating gets better as the girls get older. Sorry, but I'm going to have to classify that as "a wives tale" or "urban legend" if you prefer. I have a U15 & a U-13 and I see zero evidence of improved officiating. As a matter of fact, I see exactly the same ref's year after year. Based on the Ref that shows up, I can accurately predict exactly what the game is going to look like.

At the younger ages the lack of control exhibited by the ref's leads to unnecessarily rough games and plenty of bruises. Starting around U-14, it leads to hospital visits and your season is over. 70-80 lbs girls crashing into each other is one thing. 130-150 lbs young ladies crashing into each other is something entirely different. Pure physics. Can't speak English? That's not good, but I see far greater deficiencies than that.

Last point, there are some good ref's out there. You should make it a point to thank them and shake their hand after the game.

You know, I'm going to disagree here (and I know I'm gonna get hammered for it). Soccer is a global game. It was not born in the US like football, baseball, and basketball and, in fact, we're lagging far behind most of the rest of the world in the game. I don't see why English should be a requirement at all. Sure, it's helpful, but not required.

As I understand it, there was a large group of referees from the Mexican Federation that were invited by the PLD committee to officiate games last weekend. It's been that way for years but this year's was the largest ever. I know Dallas Cup does the same and always has refs from all over the world. But knowing that there were refs from Mexico, I wouldn't expect them to be able to speak English. I WOULD expect them to have some communication issues. But they're invited guests of the tournament and it's ok.

Now, I will put this out there and say that English isn't a requirement to referee a soccer game. Everyone knows to recognize the whistle as a form of communication. Yellow and red cards are standard also. Show a yellow card to a player and everyone knows what it means. The ref doesn't need to explain that in English. When Real Madrid plays Bayern Munich with a Dutch referee, there a 20 different nationalities on the field and the game goes on in every single language. Happens in the World Cup too. If they can figure it out, so can a local youth tournament game.

Besides, would it be that terrible to learn a 2nd language to be able to communicate with someone else? What's the harm in learning English AND Spanish? I say you might be even better off for knowing 2 languages instead of only one.

I need some help here... I have been frantically searching the interwebs looking for the national language of the USA. I simply cannot find it. Does anyone know what the REQUIRED language is here in the States? (sarcasm)

Hypothetically: I wonder how a ref crew from Hungary would communicate "d) all of the above" in an international friendly between say a team from Iran and a team from Chile?

Myopia abounds............

To the OP: I agree - Your 2nd and 3rd points are truly not acceptable in any match at any age. Those scenarios are disappointing. The language barrier issue can be worked around just like TwoTone stated above.

soccersounder wrote:This is only in response to the language issue, nothing else...

I Ref and I completely disagree!

"Verbal" Communication in "soccer" can be just a dozen words or so...

In this case, the PLD Tournament brought in a group of Referee's from Juarez, Mexico. Cool stuff.. Worst case, your dd/bb has a Ref who did not speak English for a game... That is far out-weighed by the experience of having an International Ref participating in your kids game. The DGI, brings in Europe-an and other International Ref's that do not speak English and the experience has been great there as well..

And Ref/Coach, FIFA requires Refs to speak English and Spanish at that level. Let me ask you, do you think those two languages covers every international game??

On Average your kid may be Referreed 1 in 10 games by a Ref who does not speak much English and most of the time, you do not even know about it.  

Shoot, the best young Ref I know (and we need to support the good young Refs) speaks broken English. I would take him to Ref my DDs game any day

Sounder,

If you look at the US Soccer Grade 8 presentations, one of the phrases that it says specifically is "play on" for advantage and "wait for the whistle". If you can't even say those phrases, you don't qualify for reffing a match under USSF. Remember, we go by USSF here and not FIFA. Plus the international language that FIFA uses is English whether they are proficient or not is another matter. The teams may not be able to understand fully, but it is the language.

I had to switch and use both languages for at least the word "play" in Portuguese when I was reffing an all Brazilian team from Brazil. I found out last minute that none spoke English, so would not be able to understand my advantage call (if they were out of sight of my arms). I knew the Spanish word, but not even the Brazilians knew it, so at least I was able to tell them before the match, "jogar=play."

methinks FIFA trumps USSF in every soccer category since USSF is a MEMBER of FIFA. Except the professional league MLS. MLS isn't even sanctioned within the USSF structure so they can do whatever they want.

twotone wrote:You know, I'm going to disagree here (and I know I'm gonna get hammered for it). Soccer is a global game. It was not born in the US like football, baseball, and basketball and, in fact, we're lagging far behind most of the rest of the world in the game. I don't see why English should be a requirement at all. Sure, it's helpful, but not required.

As I understand it, there was a large group of referees from the Mexican Federation that were invited by the PLD committee to officiate games last weekend. It's been that way for years but this year's was the largest ever. I know Dallas Cup does the same and always has refs from all over the world. But knowing that there were refs from Mexico, I wouldn't expect them to be able to speak English. I WOULD expect them to have some communication issues. But they're invited guests of the tournament and it's ok.

Now, I will put this out there and say that English isn't a requirement to referee a soccer game. Everyone knows to recognize the whistle as a form of communication. Yellow and red cards are standard also. Show a yellow card to a player and everyone knows what it means. The ref doesn't need to explain that in English. When Real Madrid plays Bayern Munich with a Dutch referee, there a 20 different nationalities on the field and the game goes on in every single language. Happens in the World Cup too. If they can figure it out, so can a local youth tournament game.

Besides, would it be that terrible to learn a 2nd language to be able to communicate with someone else? What's the harm in learning English AND Spanish? I say you might be even better off for knowing 2 languages instead of only one.

Here we go again.  Soccer is now an American sport just like Baseball, Basketball, Hockey and Lacrosse.  The official language should be AMERICAN.  We take the time to invent and improve all sports, we want our language spoken.  If you're going to allow two languages, it should be AMERICAN and French.  The French at least helped us win all the world wars.  If we let this go, the Canadians will expect all the hockey refs to speak with that annoying nasal dialect they use....Ya know.  What are we gonna do let everyone across the border wearing a refs uniform ....I don't think so!

When we invented Pizza, Guiness, Tequila and Scotch, we allowed other countries to enjoy it in their home and own language.  We must take a stand now, before Curling becomes international and foreigners try to change it too.  Next thing you know, the Brazilians will be saying they invented the bikini and demanding everyone speak spanish also.

Btw...I do think 1 or more of the refs should be able to communicate in English with the kids on the field. I wish they all spoke 2 languages, but they don't. Just is what it is.

Thought I would make this post before Tiki Taki came on and talked "philosophical and Brooding, like Nicholas Cage would in a movie role" and then wondered why people would make a post hiding behind an avatar. Tiki Taki's avatar is Nicholas Cage....go figure.

It's kids soccer... common sense should prevail.

I think I'd rather the ref actually know when to award an indirect vs direct kick than how to explain it in English. Even still we're only talking what 20 words?

Oh and for twotone, yea it's a world game but it was invented in England so the game's first language IS actually English. And just like pilots when 3 different nationalities are speaking (one being a ref) on the field it should be in English per FIFA

this isnt mexico, its north texas and EVERY ref should speak english...

There is absolutely no reason that a ref needs to speak English to be good. Some of the best that have ever officiated games I've been a part of spoke no English at all.

They absolutely can communicate properly without speaking at all. Advantage you say - hands out, wait for the whistle - hold it up and point to it.

Furthermore, I would say on average that I hear only 15%-20% of English speaking refs ever need to say a word during a match.

I'm less concerned with the refs speaking English, although I agree at least one should. The quality of the official was the bigger concern. There are plenty of bad refs here in NTX, why go to Mexico to get such crappy officials?

While we're bagging on Plano refs, can we get some refs that can move? I'm not asking for much, maybe like a 10 second 40 time.

I hear Plano is moving to mimes for refs.

No need to verbally communicate, to issue cautions, understand the coin flip call, or provide any other guidance throughout the game to 9 or 10 year-old players.  Heck, if the kids want to know what the mime is "saying", they should take a mime class!  

The good news is, if the refs don't understand english, they won't know what you are saying to them!

Cobra_Kai wrote:While we're bagging on Plano refs, can we get some refs that can move?  I'm not asking for much, maybe like a 10 second 40 time.

Or get them to move more than 10 yards from the center line!

This isn't Mexico, it's north Texas, so if a a person is referring a lot of games you would think they would want to learn the language, I wouldn't go to Mexico and expect everyone to learn English. However the refs discussed in this post are from Mexico, brought over to help out with a few games and I think it's cool to have them here and maybe they should be shown a little respect. I doubt it caused that big of a problem and everyone complains about the local refs anyway. Now as far as the refs not paying attention to the games that could be a problem, but how serious could the flirting have been if they didn't understand English. What kind of gestures did they use for that or was it the language of love. I bet they were glad they didn't understand English, I wish I couldn't sometimes, then maybe I'd think everyone was cheering me on.

was the real issue that the ref wouldnt communicate to the players or that it wasnt done in the preferred language? many times our players/coaches have requested an explanation on a call or lack of and get completely ignored by english speaking refs. i dont think the verbal communication matters anymore.

Guess the post in Spanish and responses was deleted. Even the forum has to be in English I guess.

Well that sux..

 If the refs didn't understand English they didn't know I was telling them about the missed calls, telling them they stink and just generally trying to get on their nerves.  No wonder they smiled at me the whole game.

gimeemore wrote:was the real issue that the ref wouldnt communicate to the players or that it wasnt done in the preferred language?  many times our players/coaches have requested an explanation on a call or lack of and get completely ignored by english speaking refs.  i dont think the verbal communication matters anymore.

It wouldn't be as bad if you had a 4th official to explain thngs to coaches and just let the CR do his thing even if the CR had broken English.

An example from the PPL was a quarterfinal game where a girl got hurt approximately 1/2yrd from the coaches' touchline. She was down for over 6mins with what looked to be a collarbone issue (just speculating, but it wasn't a lack of consciousness nor head injury, but still possibly serious). She ended up getting up of her own volition and walked the 1/2yrd oover the touchline. Play then resumed. That team was up in that game.

Two things should have and/or could have happened from a CR:

The player should have been moved over the touchline ASAP, if possible, for treatment or the CR should have added the 6+ mins to the end of the game for stoppage. Neither of these happened and he couldn't explain why.

Luckily the coach on the losing team took it in stride, which is rare for a team losing a quarterfinal by losing that much time, but most all other coaches would have lost their minds and I can empathize with them.

Firstly, If I did what that ref did without adding extra time especially for a U15+ boys games, there would almost certainly no doubt be a brawl. The closer it comes down to the wire, the more gamesmanship occurs. The winning team smashes the ball out of bounds. They walk slowly to retrieve the ball for goal kicks, take niggling fouls to slow the game, feign injuries, etc. The other team gets incensed as they want to keep moving as fast as possible. This is the part where a ref has to use his voice quite a bit as well as start showing cards. The ref should add stoppage time for this and be able to communicate this to both teams that their actions will cost them both in cards, expulsions as well as added time for their behavior. Coaches should be explained this as well. This prevents mass confrontations and is part of keeping control over games.

It wouldn't be as bad if you had a 4th official to explain thngs to coaches and just let the CR do his thing even if the CR had broken English.

Yep I would settle for broken english, Spanglish , something. If you are in charge you need to be able to communicate...

silentparent wrote:this isnt mexico, its north texas and EVERY ref should speak english...

Well, the tournament could uninvite the guest refs from Mexico and leave them there. They could also decline the refs that can't speak English here from North Texas. Of course, then there wouldnt be enough refs for all the games and they'd have to decline teams from playing in the PLD. maybe one of those teams would be your team so you'd be searching for another tournament to play in after you get declined. So you'd apply for another (read:lesser) tournament across town or out of town. All the "good" English speaking refs would be working PLD because that's the premier tournament around town. Your team, after getting declined from PLD cuz there aren't enough refs, would be in another tournament with all the non-English speaking refs that got declined from PLD also. So you'd still end up with the same ole refs that couldn't communicate. Damn shame....

Or the tournament could import refs from Mexico and add more teams (including yours) and more games. they your kid could get the experience of international style officiating

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJOWe02uBIw&t=1m13s

It's a Texican's creed