Referees

Coach& Ref, you're going to have to quit reffing games buddy. You're gonna get sued if you don't crack down on fouls in a game that cause injury. It doesn't even have to be the game that your officiating when the player gets hurt. You can get sued for not cracking down 3 games before to show the team & coach that these are the rules and they are being enforced this way. You know, cause it's your job to teach the rules to the teams in the middle of a game. It ain't worth it buddy. quit now before someone brings you under lawsuit for that overuse injury their kid suffered after you let them get kicked in the same ankle 3 times in that game 1 month ago... then they practiced on it.... then they played in 3 other games where they got kicked in the ankle by other teams in games officiated by other refs..... but you didn't teach those bad people.... Aw screw it. I give up.

KicksNation wrote:hell i saw a dateline nbc show that said that girls soccer was like #2 in concussions!  but these posts are dredging up "facts" that are not even related to the post topic of referees,  overuse injury is a whole separate issue.  but whatever...

Soccer is #2 in total # of concussions. The overuse angle within the injury stats is relevant because it tells you the massive contribution of over training to youth sports injuries in comparison to this epidemic of violence you keep talking about.

What evidence do you have that soccer in NTX today is any more violent than it was 10 years ago? We can make sensational claims like "we all know we've seen it", but that amounts to a hill of beans.

It's a rough sport, and one of the primary reasons our women had a 20 year head start on the rest of the world who don't want their girls playing it. You're trying to use anecdotal evidence from the few games you have watched through your parent lens...does that make a trend? I honestly don't know if the NTX academy scene is getting more violent or not..don't get to see those games much anymore. I'm just wondering what are you using to determine that it is.

twotone wrote:Kicks.... you brought up suing dude. Own it!!! no matter what you tried to do by saying you weren't planning to sue, you are the poster that brought it up so now it's a part of the discussion.

I'll add to my point about suing the player. If the player commits the same foul 4 different times and the ref hasn't called it, then we can talk about the referee being negligent. But he'll either say he didn't deem it a foul (which the Laws allow the referee to determine a foul/no foul) or he'll say the other incidents weren't fouls but the 4th one was different for whatever reason.

But there's not a single thing any ref could do if an injury occurred on the first foul of the game by a player "intentionally" trying to injure an opponent. The referee can only call a foul AFTER it's been committed. that's just what it is. If it's the first time that particular foul has happened in a game, then the ref can mark it and red card all he wants, but the player is still injured. It is what it is. and that's the fouling players fault. it's not any negligence of the referee because the PLAYER CHOSE TO FOUL.

I know what my intent was and i will "own" what i choose to own. Your demand means absolutely nothing to me, but what does mean a lot to me is the safety of the kids, i guess we differ there as well.

good luck.

pull your kid out of soccer then, for her own safety. that's also a choice you can make as a parent. Rather than blame everyone else involved like the refs, other coaches, other players, etc. you have a choice in the matter as well. but you want to encourage lawsuits to everyone else..... point some thumbs instead of fingers.

haterinho wrote:

KicksNation wrote:hell i saw a dateline nbc show that said that girls soccer was like #2 in concussions!  but these posts are dredging up "facts" that are not even related to the post topic of referees,  overuse injury is a whole separate issue.  but whatever...

Soccer is #2 in total # of concussions. The overuse angle within the injury stats is relevant because it tells you the massive contribution of over training to youth sports injuries in comparison to this epidemic of violence you keep talking about.

What evidence do you have that soccer in NTX today is any more violent than it was 10 years ago? We can make sensational claims like "we all know we've seen it", but that amounts to a hill of beans.

It's a rough sport, and one of the primary reasons our women had a 20 year head start on the rest of the world who don't want their girls playing it. You're trying to use anecdotal evidence from the few games you have watched through your parent lens...does that make a trend? I honestly don't know if the NTX academy scene is getting more violent or not..don't get to see those games much anymore. I'm just wondering what are you using to determine that it is.

your post is very valid and probably has a lot of merit. My statements were made based upon (entirely) my own observations. situations where my daughter was injured as a result of, in one instance, a foul that is not excepted in any sport, aside from maybe mma, happened right in front of the ref as well, nothing was called and it was a result of escalating physical behavior by the other team that went unregulated. I have also witnessed a number of other incidences involving my child's team(s) as well as unrelated teams in various age groups (we sometimes go to watch the older girls play). taking by itself it is a small sample group, but taken in conjunction with what i have heard from other parents lends itself some credibility.

I have zero proof of NTX soccer ten years ago, my daughter was not born then and i did not live in NTX at that time.

The "parent lens" in this context is a flawed statement as the actions that i am speaking of through any lens would be card-able offenses. I won't go into detail on the kind of fouls i am speaking of, but they have been brought up within this thread as well as in other threads in the past, i just don't want to open up that can of worms.

There are good referees, the coach/ref poster for example from topics i have read of his seems like one of the good ones. Additionally, in my opinion, there are some leagues like CFBAL that are doing a good job in their officiating (for the most part). This is in contrast to a large tournament promoter on the other end of the spectrum.

This is my last post on the topic as it has gone way off the tracks (plus i need to get back to work), hopefully this all works itself out and the kids have a good soccer experience.

twotone wrote:I find it ironic that the 2 best male players in the world today are polar opposites. Messi is barely 5'5" and Ronaldo is 6'1". neither are especially big or strong, but both are well-balanced and technical with the ball. I would call them strong "enough" to withstand the physical players and quick enough to avoid them too.

On the women's side, you have Abby Wambach (who is bigger than both Messi and Ronaldo) and Marta who are polar opposites as well. They both have the strength and athleticism to play the game and have been put in positions to thrive.

Twotone great observation and a topic I would like to see on its own and discussed further.  There werre several good thoughts about the sizes of players and what skill/ability is the most important for soccer players.

Back to the carnage on the field;
Just curious if anyone else has noticed this scenario;

Two teams of different styles are playing the physical team continues to push the envelope and with its physical play has gained an edge in the run of play.  The official seems reluctant to call most of these fouls for some reason;
1. To not slow down the game,
2. because of laziness,
3. because of lack of knowledge.
4. None of the above

Now a player from the finesse team has had enough or been encouraged by a coach or parent to step up.  She makes a strong physical challenge deserving a foul but not cheap shot and is called.  Hardly seems fair but now that team finesse has stepped up the official starts to call it like it should have been all along.  I have noticed this happen in multiple sports.

Im sure it happens, but I usually see a team that's big a physical get more bad calls than the finesse team. Usually a finesse team does more passing and overlapping. A physical team is usually more man on man. The finesse team is usually a little smaller player, so the bigger player usually gets the call. I like watching teams with both. When you start getting into U14 and up its way rougher because all the kids have size and speed. Watching U16 you would think they needed pads.

twotone wrote:pull your kid out of soccer then, for her own safety. that's also a choice you can make as a parent. Rather than blame everyone else involved like the refs, other coaches, other players, etc. you have a choice in the matter as well. but you want to encourage lawsuits to everyone else..... point some thumbs instead of fingers.

100% agree. At the point I decide this sport is SO dangerous that it's not worth my child participating, I pull her.  I have reffed older girls and seen what's coming in terms of physicality...if you think the little shirt pulling and pushes to the back are violent, just wait till you get to see her in a high school rivalry game.

I'm constantly probing dd about her desire to play.  Truth be told, I want her to be successful, but I'd be perfectly fine if she stepped away from the game. I want her to be able to walk without a limp at 30, and without any reduced brain function from childhood concussions.

Here's an anecdotal story for you. When DD was U10, she was playing FWD and coach told her to go get in front of the keeper on a corner kick. Keeper didn't want anyone standing next to her, and shoved my DD with two hands to the ground. DD got up off the ground and shoved the keeper back. Keeper balled up her fist and cold cocked my daughter in the face with a straight right. DD grabbed her face and stepped away. I hadn't taught her how to throw a punch, but it's clear this keeper was well versed.

All this happened in clear sight of the ref. No card given to anyone, no foul called on anyone. Ref talked to both players for about 20 seconds. DD played for the next 3-4 minutes with blood running out of her nose until the coach finally was made to sub her out. Ref didn't say anything about her running around with a bloody face until enough parents yelled at him that she was bleeding.

Was I ticked at the ref? Absolutely - he was a young ref that had allowed the game to spiral out of control long before this incident. I was ticked at her coach, as I felt like he should have had enough compassion to sub her without waiting for the ref to send her off. I was ticked at her team, because from that point on no one dared go anywhere near that keeper. She had effectively spooked the whole team with one punch. Coach told another FWD to go stand in front of the keeper on a subsequent corner...said player flat refused. LOL.

I was mostly ticked at myself because I had put my daughter in a dangerous sport without teaching her how to protect herself. I seriously considered pulling her from soccer then, but decided instead...get her some martial arts training!   Sounds ridiculous I know, but IF she was a son there is no way I'd let him walk around at that age and not know how to defend himself, so my daughter deserved nothing less.

But I was ultimately ticked at the state of NTX soccer. That ref just set a standard of violence for all 30 of the nine and ten-year-old little girls that watched a player punch another player in the face and without repercussions. I would've been fine if he'd red carded the both of them, at least then you're teaching players what's ok and what's NOT OK.

So what did I do? First I talked to the player's parents after the game. I had my DD talk to their DD and apologize...even though my DD had been punched in the face, she should have had enough self control not to retaliate when she was pushed. Second I lodged a complaint about the officiating with the TD (which I'm convinced was a complete and total waste of time). Third I told the DD i'm going to let her choose her own soccer team...she will not be forced to play where I think she should play. But she will be signing up for plano MMA if she wants to keep playing. Fourth, I decided I was going to become a ref and try to call games the way I'd like them called if my daughter was playing.

Each year I try to get the DD to quit soccer. I love the game myself, but I personally don't think it's worth it for her...too many sacrifices...for too little potential benefit. She carries on because she wants to make those sacrifices, and we're in it with eyes wide open understanding the risks we're taking. Lord willing, she plays for as long as she wants and escapes serious injury.

And while I personally have no respect for some of the crap I've seen out of some local referee cabals, if she does get hurt, the last thing to cross my mind will be sueing a ref.

twotone wrote:Kicks.... you brought up suing dude. Own it!!! no matter what you tried to do by saying you weren't planning to sue, you are the poster that brought it up so now it's a part of the discussion.

I'll add to my point about suing the player. If the player commits the same foul 4 different times and the ref hasn't called it, then we can talk about the referee being negligent. But he'll either say he didn't deem it a foul (which the Laws allow the referee to determine a foul/no foul) or he'll say the other incidents weren't fouls but the 4th one was different for whatever reason.

But there's not a single thing any ref could do if an injury occurred on the first foul of the game by a player "intentionally" trying to injure an opponent. The referee can only call a foul AFTER it's been committed. that's just what it is. If it's the first time that particular foul has happened in a game, then the ref can mark it and red card all he wants, but the player is still injured. It is what it is. and that's the fouling players fault. it's not any negligence of the referee because the PLAYER CHOSE TO FOUL.

twotone, my friend, you don't get it.

As we see here almost ad nauseum, is that there is a camp of people who think the system needs to change, and possibly it can. There are two ways that I see that this may be possible.

1. The referees could be trained and assessed in clairvoyance and E.S.P.

2. NTX could pioneer the "pre-foul" recognition system as seen in Minority Report. Take the following example: A player is charging another player or is intent on doing something worthy of a card. A red ball or yellow ball is issued at the "pre-foul" headquarters in NTX. Before a "life altering" injury would occur, the ref is relayed, via headset, the appropriate action to be taken. In this case, play is stopped, a red card is issued and the player is ejected. No injury would occur.

Let me know if you can think of any others.

Coach&ref, how about early in the game when you start seeing girls throw elbows or push from behind, you start blowing that little whistle and giving out cards. Dont wait half way through or until the end of a game to let it get out of hand. You can tell how a game is going to be played and referred in the first 5-10 minutes.

how about a minority report on the parents? i guess that wouldn't work, there wouldn't be any one left at the games to watch...

Wired wrote:Coach&ref, how about early in the game when you start seeing girls throw elbows or push from behind, you start blowing that little whistle and giving out cards. Dont wait half way through or until the end of a game to let it get out of hand. You can tell how a game is going to be played and referred in the first 5-10 minutes.

I've mentioned this before, Wired.

There are two ways that games can get out of control: a lax ref and a card happy one.

The lax ref allows play to continue until it spirals out of control.

The card happy one who cards a foul immediately (to "set the tone" in their own words), MUST continue to do so for each equivalent one he sees in order to maintain consistency. If he continues on this route, the game will end with way fewer than 11 per side or in a fight due to other fouls not being called that were more egregious than the first.

silentparent wrote:how about a minority report on the parents? i guess that wouldn't work, there wouldn't be any one left at the games to watch...

And that's a bad thing because........?

can we implant tiny little computer chips inside everyone's brain at birth? or maybe code them with electronic numbering systems when they sign up for soccer that give them a certain number of fouls in their lifetime. then, when they reach the foul limit, they spontaneously combust at the moment fouls run out.

No sharing of fouls either.....

Wired wrote:Coach&ref, how about early in the game when you start seeing girls throw elbows or push from behind, you start blowing that little whistle and giving out cards. Dont wait half way through or until the end of a game to let it get out of hand. You can tell how a game is going to be played and referred in the first 5-10 minutes.

Doesn't help when a rogue player breaks an opponents leg on the first foul of the game. But that's when you get to sue the previous games ref

twotone wrote:

Wired wrote:Coach&ref, how about early in the game when you start seeing girls throw elbows or push from behind, you start blowing that little whistle and giving out cards. Dont wait half way through or until the end of a game to let it get out of hand. You can tell how a game is going to be played and referred in the first 5-10 minutes.

Doesn't help when a rogue player breaks an opponents leg on the first foul of the game. But that's when you get to sue the previous games ref

"Rogue player" That is awesome! Do you mind if I use it, or is it trademarked? It makes me picture a rogue wave coming out of nowhere.

only if it's used in referenced to every single girls player in NTX u13 and below.

Coach&Ref wrote:

Wired wrote:Coach&ref, how about early in the game when you start seeing girls throw elbows or push from behind, you start blowing that little whistle and giving out cards. Dont wait half way through or until the end of a game to let it get out of hand. You can tell how a game is going to be played and referred in the first 5-10 minutes.

I've mentioned this before, Wired.

There are two ways that games can get out of control: a lax ref and a card happy one.

The lax ref allows play to continue until it spirals out of control.

The card happy one who cards a foul immediately (to "set the tone" in their own words), MUST continue to do so for each equivalent one he sees in order to maintain consistency. If he continues on this route, the game will end with way fewer than 11 per side or in a fight due to other fouls not being called that were more egregious than the first.

I'm easy, and do not expect the refs to be perfect.  I would settle for some balance with examples of both on a regular basis.  

In 14 years of select soccer in NTX, I've seen examples of the first situation almost every weekend, but have NEVER seen an example of the second situation you describe be it D2, D1, PL, NL, ECNL.

The first example also leads to increasingly egregious fouls, injuries, fights (parents & kids) and expectations of permissiveness in the next game the teams play.

Lefty wrote:

Coach&Ref wrote:

Wired wrote:Coach&ref, how about early in the game when you start seeing girls throw elbows or push from behind, you start blowing that little whistle and giving out cards. Dont wait half way through or until the end of a game to let it get out of hand. You can tell how a game is going to be played and referred in the first 5-10 minutes.

I've mentioned this before, Wired.

There are two ways that games can get out of control: a lax ref and a card happy one.

The lax ref allows play to continue until it spirals out of control.

The card happy one who cards a foul immediately (to "set the tone" in their own words), MUST continue to do so for each equivalent one he sees in order to maintain consistency. If he continues on this route, the game will end with way fewer than 11 per side or in a fight due to other fouls not being called that were more egregious than the first.

I'm easy, and do not expect the refs to be perfect.  I would settle for some balance with examples of both on a regular basis.  

In 14 years of select soccer in NTX, I've seen examples of the first situation almost every weekend, but have NEVER seen an example of the second situation you describe be it D2, D1, PL, NL, ECNL.

The first example also leads to increasingly egregious fouls, injuries, fights (parents & kids) and expectations of permissiveness in the next game the teams play.

I agree, Lefty, but I promise you the latter refs exist. If I am the AR with them, they will let both of us know what his tolerance level is and how he plans to handle the game. The difference between the former and latter refs, is that sometimes the latter ref's personal philosophy works and sometimes it doesn't. I have seen plenty of fights and incidents resulting from the latter ref's philosophy.

I will grant you that many more of the former refs are prevalent in the game.

Coach&Ref wrote:

Lefty wrote:

Coach&Ref wrote:

Wired wrote:Coach&ref, how about early in the game when you start seeing girls throw elbows or push from behind, you start blowing that little whistle and giving out cards. Dont wait half way through or until the end of a game to let it get out of hand. You can tell how a game is going to be played and referred in the first 5-10 minutes.

I've mentioned this before, Wired.

There are two ways that games can get out of control: a lax ref and a card happy one.

The lax ref allows play to continue until it spirals out of control.

The card happy one who cards a foul immediately (to "set the tone" in their own words), MUST continue to do so for each equivalent one he sees in order to maintain consistency. If he continues on this route, the game will end with way fewer than 11 per side or in a fight due to other fouls not being called that were more egregious than the first.

I'm easy, and do not expect the refs to be perfect.  I would settle for some balance with examples of both on a regular basis.  

In 14 years of select soccer in NTX, I've seen examples of the first situation almost every weekend, but have NEVER seen an example of the second situation you describe be it D2, D1, PL, NL, ECNL.

The first example also leads to increasingly egregious fouls, injuries, fights (parents & kids) and expectations of permissiveness in the next game the teams play.

I agree, Lefty, but I promise you the latter refs exist. If I am the AR with them, they will let both of us know what his tolerance level is and how he plans to handle the game. The difference between the former and latter refs, is that sometimes the latter ref's personal philosophy works and sometimes it doesn't. I have seen plenty of fights and incidents resulting from the latter ref's philosophy.

I will grant you that many more of the former refs are prevalent in the game.

If you say it happens in NTX I'll have to believe you, but I have never seen or heard of it. Guess I could check the disciplinary reports and see how many games with multiple red cards there were last year, but I'm not that interested. It would be great to hear from someone with an example this year if it happens.

I think a little balance between the scenarios might not be a bad thing.  

A handful of teams getting red cards and losing players for the next game, which may cost them a bye at the end of the year, may make the coaches and players rethink the risk reward tradeoff of that style of player.

haterinho wrote:

Hooligan wrote:I am calling BS.  You didn't have a link in there, so I went to USA Today and searched. (actually I went to google and searched on "kids sports injuries statistics" and the USA Today article was first in the list).  As far as injuries go, Soccer is 3rd behind Football and Basketball in this article...and you said it wasn't mentioned...

SS is talking about the section of the article that talks about RATE of concussions...not total # of injuries. They listed the # of concussions per 10,000 kids and had

1. Football (40)
2. Wrestling (15)
3. Cheerleading (12)
4. Ice Hockey (10)

They didn't list soccer in that section.

SS comments are spot on...I was also going to mention the overuse thing being a far bigger danger to your kid, but I didn't want to be hypocritical given my own kid has had an overuse injury herself!

Thanks Haterinho!

Hooligan.. You called BS??

You Clown... I just copied pasted two items that caught my eye... But every single story on the search shows that soccer is AT WORST, no worse that other team sports and almost always 4th or 5th down the list of team sports... PROVING in this REF Thread, that we aint that bad OR the Refs in the other teams sports are worse.. That is if you're blaming us for the injuries... But you can't do that, because every single story in the search YOU DID mentions "over use" as the single biggest issue..

What's the deal with a CR telling a line judge that " I will call all fouls"  ? That is just arrogant in my opinion.  If a line judge sees a foul he should call it.  My DD was on the receiving end of a punch a couple of weeks ago in a game.  Not a errant elbow but an out and out punch. I am pretty sure the line judge saw it.  The ref should have seen it also but no call was made.  My DD and the puncher had to be seperrated because after the punch it got a bit ugly. It should have been a straight red and the other team playing a man down.  The only result was the CR "talked" to them both. This kind of officiating is unacceptable.

you could plug in ANY youth sport this conversation and most of the "cons" would apply

soccersounder wrote:

haterinho wrote:

Hooligan wrote:I am calling BS.  You didn't have a link in there, so I went to USA Today and searched. (actually I went to google and searched on "kids sports injuries statistics" and the USA Today article was first in the list).  As far as injuries go, Soccer is 3rd behind Football and Basketball in this article...and you said it wasn't mentioned...

SS is talking about the section of the article that talks about RATE of concussions...not total # of injuries. They listed the # of concussions per 10,000 kids and had

1. Football (40)
2. Wrestling (15)
3. Cheerleading (12)
4. Ice Hockey (10)

They didn't list soccer in that section.

SS comments are spot on...I was also going to mention the overuse thing being a far bigger danger to your kid, but I didn't want to be hypocritical given my own kid has had an overuse injury herself!

Thanks Haterinho!

Hooligan.. You called BS??

You Clown... I just copied pasted two items that caught my eye... But every single story on the search shows that soccer is AT WORST, no worse that other team sports and almost always 4th or 5th down the list of team sports... PROVING in this REF Thread, that we aint that bad OR the Refs in the other teams sports are worse.. That is if you're blaming us for the injuries... But you can't do that, because every single story in the search YOU DID mentions "over use" as the single biggest issue..

Here is the link for anyone who wants to see who the clown is:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/06/injuries-athletes-kids-sports/2612429/

Soccer is third for injuries AND concussions according to the huge graphic.

Football has weight limits for ball-carriers at younger ages - Hockey has no-check at younger ages - Basketball has the limited foul rule. Youth soccer in NTX says to go ahead and maim the opposing players - as long as you are outside the box, its not a big deal. If the ref doesn't card you for it, its ok to keep doing it.

With all the love potions advertised on the foum today will it rub off on the comments?

I was wondering what all thought of the penalty of sitting the next game after a red card. Even for non contact offenses. A no call/yellow card that injures someone gets no additional penalty.