Referees

KicksNation wrote:**Please note that I am putting this out there as a topic of discussion only. Not as legal advice (not an attorney) nor as something that I am suggesting to do.**
Something to consider is legal action against the referees and referee associations.  I have witnessed, and my daughter has received injuries, from what i can only characterize as gross negligence on the part of referees.  In some cases it has been so blatant that words can not adequately characterize it.  
An official has a certain level of "duty to care" and some say that failure to enforce the rules of the game, especially in regards to player safety violates that "responsibility" (for lack of a better word).  There have been cases, some successful and some not, involving personal suits brought against referees for their negligence in the injury of players as a result from their lack of enforcement of the games rules.  
I honestly can see this occurring in North Texas as the physicality of the game, in conjunction with lax/weak officiating, continues to intensify.  

Wow.  This would guarantee that you would have no referees.   If a spectator could sue me over any of my decisions and drag me through the courts and drain my time and money, I'd never step on another field.

I would be surprised if there are supporting references for the assertion that negligence lawsuits against soccer referees have succeeded.  

FIFA Laws specify "A referee is not held liable for:
Any kind of injury suffered by a player, official or spectator.
Any damage to property...
Any other loss suffered by an individual... which is due or which may be due to any decision that he may take under the terms of the Laws... or in respect of normal procedures required to hold, play and control a match."
If the league plays according to FIFA laws, your voluntary participation is implicit acceptance of the terms.

Claims against referees can be made through North Texas Soccer, which can and does pull licenses.

You want to sue someone, sue the player that punched your DD and gave her a concussion.  People are responsible for their own actions, or at least that used be true in this country.

There are several factors contributing to the "rough/dirty play" issues asserted in this thread.
1) a shortage of quality referees with the skill and experience necessary to handle an increasing number of games
2) shortfalls in or absence of assessment programs
3) perceptions of (unqualified) spectators
4) a growing societal lack of respect for others

upper95 wrote:

KicksNation wrote:**Please note that I am putting this out there as a topic of discussion only. Not as legal advice (not an attorney) nor as something that I am suggesting to do.**
Something to consider is legal action against the referees and referee associations.  I have witnessed, and my daughter has received injuries, from what i can only characterize as gross negligence on the part of referees.  In some cases it has been so blatant that words can not adequately characterize it.  
An official has a certain level of "duty to care" and some say that failure to enforce the rules of the game, especially in regards to player safety violates that "responsibility" (for lack of a better word).  There have been cases, some successful and some not, involving personal suits brought against referees for their negligence in the injury of players as a result from their lack of enforcement of the games rules.  
I honestly can see this occurring in North Texas as the physicality of the game, in conjunction with lax/weak officiating, continues to intensify.  

Wow.  This would guarantee that you would have no referees.   If a spectator could sue me over any of my decisions and drag me through the courts and drain my time and money, I'd never step on another field.

I would be surprised if there are supporting references for the assertion that negligence lawsuits against soccer referees have succeeded.  

FIFA Laws specify "A referee is not held liable for:
Any kind of injury suffered by a player, official or spectator.
Any damage to property...
Any other loss suffered by an individual... which is due or which may be due to any decision that he may take under the terms of the Laws... or in respect of normal procedures required to hold, play and control a match."
If the league plays according to FIFA laws, your voluntary participation is implicit acceptance of the terms.

Claims against referees can be made through North Texas Soccer, which can and does pull licenses.

You want to sue someone, sue the player that punched your DD and gave her a concussion.  People are responsible for their own actions, or at least that used be true in this country.

Again I never said I will sue, read please what I wrote.
1.) I never said the cases I saw involved soccer, I don't recall what sports were involved, I typed my post at work and searching on my ipad at home is a pain. I'll look tomorrow. I seem to recall one was youth hockey, one was maybe football and I don't recall the third case. But I'm sure hockey and football have referee governing bodies that state something similar to FIFA. A Ref is a ref. But I hear what you are saying about FIFA, but I don't think that that would negate or trump gross negligence and preclude US litigation. Hell you can sue anyone these days, doesn't mean you will win, but the time and expense for a ref to defend themselves still exists.
2.) you stated implicit exceptance of FIFA guidelines and rules through participation, essentially a realease of liability. While liability waivers are difficult hurdles to get around, there are ways around them. One way, totally applicable to this situation at point, is a liability waiver is not enforceable when an injury is incurred as a result of acts that exhibit a conscious disregard for the safety of others. This, in my opinion, is the case of severe negligence of a referee in controlling the game resulting in injury.

3.) claims against referees to north texas are generally useless acts and wastes of time.

4.) you are spot on about personal responsibility, but Referees also have a duty to do their jobs and enforce the rules of the game. To repeat they have a duty to enforce the rules of the game. It's should not be a hard concept, simply do the job they are hired to do. The good/great referees do exist in NTX, but it's the large grouping of bad ones that are the issue that must be addressed....

Oh well, I've said my peace and it's past time to turn in for the night, things must change if this sport hopes to continue to prosper and grow in NTX. Will it change is anyone's guess.

Filing lawsuits against refs because your daughter was injured is like beating up your cable installer because your bill is too high. Take a look at the intertwined relationships between assignors, league administration and big clubs if you want to go to the source of NTX officiating culture.

Once you start slinging lawsuits and driving the types of people who would have something to lose out of reffing, you can bet whatever quality issues you see now will be compounded many times over.

Its Me wrote:

Hooligan wrote:A lot of crying and deflecting by referees and elitists about parents not knowing "offside" or "advantage".  But the fact remains, there are way too many U-11,12,13 yr. old girls going to the emergency room.  
Skilled players are quitting the sport because they are tired of being injured all the time, and having to gain weight (and look like softball players) to stand a chance of competing for a 50/50 ball.  

LH needs to crack down on the violence, and let coaches know that dirty play is not tolerated at all.  Then it trickles down into the academy ranks because the coaches will start actually working on ball skills instead of shoulder barges with a discreet elbow to the jaw.  If a dirty, low-skilled player can't stay on the field in LH, the academy coaches will not pursue this type of player - they will be forced to find players with skills or, god-forbid, teach them.

So maybe it's the coaches that we need to focus on as to the dirty play and not the referees.

Or the parents who encourage or tolerate the behavior from their DD's.  We talk about soccer teaching life lessons.

Though probably just quicker and simpler to give two quick yellows and a red in some u11 games to the girls just playing the player vs the ball. Let some teams play 2-3 players down in their first few games and the message would get out.

Lefty wrote:Or the parents who encourage or tolerate the behavior from their DD's.  We talk about soccer teaching life lessons.

This.

DD's first select team had a center mid who, at that time, was far bigger than other girls on the field. She was always doing the double handed shove to the back of opposing players. Coach and parents thought it was so funny they even gave the maneuver it's own name. Never once saw that kid carded. Made me so mad to watch it. Same goes for a keeper whose father has become somewhat infamous on this board. There were a couple of games where I thought she should have been issued a straight red card.

While my kid has been injured numerous times, it is part of the game. I do wish referees would pull yellows more frequently and talk to the players as soon as possible (especially if advantage has been played and the ref has to come back to it). By refs failing to pull a yellow card, the infraction isn't recorded by the league. Which means repeat offenders get away with this game after game after game because there is no documentation.

Sometimes kids make a bad play. Injuries happen. It's the habitual offenders that need to be weeded out of the game.

1. "athletic" players that cannot defend a skilled player effectively, end up going "physical".

2. NTX referees let a lot of overly physical play go - rewarding the less skillled players.

3. Referees are not responsible for the safety of the kids. They are responsible for enforcing the rules...well...see #2.

4. Referees have such thin skin that if a parent complains during a match that the referee is being to lenient on the physical players, they have the parent removed - thus removing the primary party responsible for the childs safety and welfare from the facility. (gee...what could go wrong there?)

5. It is expressly written that there is no recourse against a referee that is derilect in their duty of enforcing the rules properly and/or controlling the game, resulting in injury, fights, etc. (except maybe to replay the entire game IF and ONLY IF the referee admits to being wrong)

Ultimately, the parent and the individual player are the only ones responsible for the player's safety. At the younger ages, if a parent is not allowed to protect their child from unjust injury (ref allowing too much violent play), they will pull the skilled kid from the sport. At the older ages, the player either has to fight back and face the consequences if the referee doensn't control the game, or quit the sport.

Hooligan wrote:1.  "athletic" players that cannot defend a skilled player effectively, end up going "physical".  

2.  NTX referees let a lot of overly physical play go - rewarding the less skillled players.  

3.  Referees are not responsible for the safety of the kids.  They are responsible for enforcing the rules...well...see #2.

4.  Referees have such thin skin that if a parent complains during a match that the referee is being to lenient on the physical players, they have the parent removed - thus removing the primary party responsible for the childs safety and welfare from the facility.  (gee...what could go wrong there?)  

5.  It is expressly written that there is no recourse against a referee that is derilect in their duty of enforcing the rules properly and/or controlling the game, resulting in injury, fights, etc.  (except maybe to replay the entire game IF and ONLY IF the referee admits to being wrong)

Ultimately, the parent and the individual player are the only ones responsible for the player's safety.  At the younger ages, if a parent is not allowed to protect their child from unjust injury (ref allowing too much violent play), they will pull the skilled kid from the sport.  At the older ages, the player either has to fight back and face the consequences if the referee doensn't control the game, or quit the sport.  

Remember this is a business first and foremost.  

Just follow the money.  

The revenue lost from a handful of skilled kids giving up the sport each year is much less than the potential revenue lost from the large number of lesser skilled kids who 'go physical' giving up the game because of their inability to compete with more skilled players if a tighter game was enforced.

At the younger ages there is too much "they didn't mean to", or "they are just a bit clumsy at this age", etc. Which equates to: They do not have enough coordination to execute a proper physical challenge for the ball.

Why not play futsal rules until U-13? Develop skill first - then when they grow into their bodies and get more coordinated, start allowing more physical play/slide tackles/etc. when they can be properly coached on how to do it without injuring themselves or other players in the process.

How many skilled kids do you think leave the sport because its too rough, not very many. Ive seen more bigger kids injured because of smaller kids. A bigger kid is constantly getting hit in the knees, which is one of the most common injuries in soccer. Ive never heard a parent say there kid is a bit clumsy in select soccer. All the refs need to do is call the stupid fouls both ways. More often a foul is called on a bigger kid returning a smaller kids blow. Most parents think there daughter can still dribble the field like she could in u8, its not going to happen. They think they got the skills to go goal to goal, how about pass. Skills are important for touch, passing and shooting. Why dont yall start worrying about technique. Call the fouls both ways and the injuries will be reduced.

How many skills do you think Alex Morgan had when she started playing at age 13.

Hooligan wrote:At the younger ages there is too much "they didn't mean to", or "they are just a bit clumsy at this age", etc.  Which equates to:  They do not have enough coordination to execute a proper physical challenge for the ball.

Why not play futsal rules until U-13?  Develop skill first - then when they grow into their bodies and get more coordinated, start allowing more physical play/slide tackles/etc.  when they can be properly coached on how to do it without injuring themselves or other players in the process.

Futsal and soccer are two very different sports. I believe they complement each other very well, though this belief is not universally held. Either way, futsal rules played on outdoor sized fields would not be soccer, and those kids would be disadvantaged if they had to play real soccer for the first time @u13. Soccer is a contact sport. In general, futsal is not.

Part of "skill" in soccer is tackling within the boundaries of the laws of the game. Part of "skill" is having enough control of your body and the ball to anticipate and avoid challenges. I can't count how many players that look like all-stars when you watch them warm-up...they're juggling a gazillion times (usually with one foot), performing all sorts of ball tricks. Step-over turn. Check. Matthews. Check. Scissors - double check. Throw them in the game and put them under pressure - all of sudden all the skill you thought they had morphs into fits of hurried panic and poor decisions. That tells you their parents paid for them to learn the techniques, but their mastery can't yet be classified as skill.

Show me a player that claims they quit the sport because they were too skilled to stay on the field with all the brutes that kept fouling her, and I'll show you a delusional parent.

haterinho wrote:
Show me a player that claims they quit the sport because they were too skilled to stay on the field with all the brutes that kept fouling her, and I'll show you a delusional parent.

Agreed! Although, delusional parents aren't hard to find.

what i dont like about futsal is that it teaches kids to STOP with the ball. This is a disastrous habit in real soccer, it kills momentum and usually leads to turning over the ball.

Wired wrote:How many skilled kids do you think leave the sport because its too rough, not very many. Ive seen more bigger kids injured because of smaller kids. A bigger kid is constantly getting hit in the knees, which is one of the most common injuries in soccer. Ive never heard a parent say there kid is a bit clumsy in select  soccer. All the refs need to do is call the stupid fouls both ways. More often a foul is called on a bigger kid returning a smaller kids blow. Most parents think there daughter can still dribble the field like she could in u8, its not going to happen. They think they got the skills to go goal to goal, how about pass. Skills are important for touch, passing and shooting. Why dont yall start worrying about technique. Call the fouls both ways and the injuries will be reduced.

Never heard a parents say their kid is a bit clumsy in select?  You missed the conversation from a couple of weeks ago, where a couple parents were claiming that most fouls are the result of "klutzy" players - and that, in fact, most fouls are not fouls, but are actually whiney parents parents just complaining about little Suzie getting legally pushed off the ball.

A bigger player SHOULD be penalized for "returning a smaller kids blow."

The problem is - more often fouls that should be called - obvious and potentially dangerous fouls - are not called.

silentparent wrote:what i dont like about futsal is that it teaches kids to STOP with the ball. This is a disastrous habit in real soccer, it kills momentum and usually leads to turning over the ball.

I have to disagree with you there, SP. Proper Futsal instruction doesn't teach you that. In that scenario of stopping the ball is not for momentum to stop, but to recognize when you are being closed down by a faster player who is off the ball and "reset" the play by playing it backwards, sideways, waiting for a run to develop, taunting the defender to dive in, etc. Futsal is NOT equated to "tricks" and "moves" like some people think. It is about being comfortable with the ball at your feet and being able to read the play. Good Futsal trainers will tell you that if you want to learn tricks, then you do it on your own time. What it does is vastly improves a kid's soccer I.Q.  Watch how often forward momentum works when a longball is played outdoor or a winger just takes off and is run out of bounds because they try to turn the corner by the goal and fail to hold the ball up while their support can get forward.

I think the real problem is that there is only 3 or 4 of us Referees here in this forum... 95% of the Refs have no idea this site even exist... So the complaints are basically for not... 70% of the Refs have done this for far longer than we have been soccer experts (parents) and they will continue to Ref how they see fit.. But when you say injuries are the Refs fault? Maybe if I run over an 11 year old when I'm following the play.... Soccer is no different from other youth team sports when it comes to injuries..

This from USA Today:
"• Football resulted in both the highest number of all pediatric injuries (394,350) and the highest concussion rate (40 per 10,000 athletes). Wrestling and cheerleading had the second- and third-highest concussion rates (15 per 10,000 athletes and 12 per 10,000 athletes, respectively).

• Ice hockey had the highest percentage (31%) of concussion injuries; its rate was 10 per 10,000 athletes."

Soccer not even mentioned

And this from Nationwidechildren:

Overuse injuries such as stress fractures, tendinitis, bursitis, apophysitis and osteochondral injuries of the joint surface were rarely seen when children spent more time engaging in free play. The following risk factors predispose young athletes to overuse injuries:

Sport specialization at a young age
Imbalance of strength or joint range of motion
Anatomic malalignment
Improper footwear
Pre-existing condition
Growth cartilage less resistant to repetitive microtrauma
Intense, repetitive training during periods of growth

This squarely point the blame at us parents

Soccer ref glasses are way different that Soccer parent glasses. As a Ref, I (we) do not root for a team. Our kid is not playing... As a parent, I try my best not to say much to the Refs.... Getting better at that every year

Coach&Ref wrote:

silentparent wrote:what i dont like about futsal is that it teaches kids to STOP with the ball. This is a disastrous habit in real soccer, it kills momentum and usually leads to turning over the ball.

I have to disagree with you there, SP. Proper Futsal instruction doesn't teach you that. In that scenario of stopping the ball is not for momentum to stop, but to recognize when you are being closed down by a faster player who is off the ball and "reset" the play by playing it backwards, sideways, waiting for a run to develop, taunting the defender to dive in, etc. Futsal is NOT equated to "tricks" and "moves" like some people think. It is about being comfortable with the ball at your feet and being able to read the play. Good Futsal trainers will tell you that if you want to learn tricks, then you do it on your own time. What it does is vastly improves a kid's soccer I.Q.  Watch how often forward momentum works when a longball is played outdoor or a winger just takes off and is run out of bounds because they try to turn the corner by the goal and fail to hold the ball up while their support can get forward.

well we have to agree to disagree, i think stopping a ball in a game is very detrimental and i have seen heavy playing futsal kids constantly look at their feet when they have the ball instead of upfield.

soccersounder wrote:I think the real problem is that there is only 3 or 4 of us Referees here in this forum... 95% of the Refs have no idea this site even exist... So the complaints are basically for not... 70% of the Refs have done this for far longer than we have been soccer experts (parents) and they will continue to Ref how they see fit.. But when you say injuries are the Refs fault? Maybe if I run over an 11 year old when I'm following the play.... Soccer is no different from other youth team sports when it comes to injuries..

This from USA Today:
"• Football resulted in both the highest number of all pediatric injuries (394,350) and the highest concussion rate (40 per 10,000 athletes). Wrestling and cheerleading had the second- and third-highest concussion rates (15 per 10,000 athletes and 12 per 10,000 athletes, respectively).

• Ice hockey had the highest percentage (31%) of concussion injuries; its rate was 10 per 10,000 athletes."

Soccer not even mentioned

And this from Nationwidechildren:

Overuse injuries such as stress fractures, tendinitis, bursitis, apophysitis and osteochondral injuries of the joint surface were rarely seen when children spent more time engaging in free play. The following risk factors predispose young athletes to overuse injuries:

Sport specialization at a young age
Imbalance of strength or joint range of motion
Anatomic malalignment
Improper footwear
Pre-existing condition
Growth cartilage less resistant to repetitive microtrauma
Intense, repetitive training during periods of growth

This squarely point the blame at us parents

Soccer ref glasses are way different that Soccer parent glasses. As a Ref, I (we) do not root for a team. Our kid is not playing... As a parent, I try my best not to say much to the Refs.... Getting better at that every year

I am calling BS. You didn't have a link in there, so I went to USA Today and searched. (actually I went to google and searched on "kids sports injuries statistics" and the USA Today article was first in the list). As far as injuries go, Soccer is 3rd behind Football and Basketball in this article...and you said it wasn't mentioned...

upper95 makes a good point. while the referee does have a hand in the management of the game, he/she can only "control" what happens AFTER your player gets the crap kicked out of them. What I mean by this is that the elbow to the back of the head that most are talking about in this thread occurs before the whistle is blown and a foul can be called. There's no way the referee can anticipate a player's actions before they happen, even if we can all see it coming.

If you want to sue anybody, sue the opposing player for her actions. Good luck with that, but you'd have better luck there than suing a referee.

I have read all of the responses and as I mentioned in my initial post, litigation is not something i am pursuing,  it was simply a topic that i was curious about and its relation to a very bad situation NTX soccer is facing.  
Parents for sure have a responsibility in this, but soccersounder used overuse injuries as an example, and this is not in any way what i was discussing.  What i am talking about is egregiously overly violent conduct that is resulting in serious injuries being overlooked more and more by officials. Soccer is a physical sport and there are rules in place to set parameters on the degree of physicality allowed.  I wont go into details, but we all have seen examples of the kind of conduct i am referring to, conduct that is not allowed in either football, hockey or wrestling.  When an official continually ignores this type of behavior he/she by default is condoning it and he/she becomes culpable in any injuries that arise. (my opinion)  The referees have a duty to make sure that the rules explicitly stated by FIFA and/or whatever governing body are enforced and the actions that i am referring to are explicitly   prohibited by FIFA and/or whatever governing body.

Hooligan wrote:I am calling BS.  You didn't have a link in there, so I went to USA Today and searched. (actually I went to google and searched on "kids sports injuries statistics" and the USA Today article was first in the list).  As far as injuries go, Soccer is 3rd behind Football and Basketball in this article...and you said it wasn't mentioned...

SS is talking about the section of the article that talks about RATE of concussions...not total # of injuries. They listed the # of concussions per 10,000 kids and had

1. Football (40)
2. Wrestling (15)
3. Cheerleading (12)
4. Ice Hockey (10)

They didn't list soccer in that section.

SS comments are spot on...I was also going to mention the overuse thing being a far bigger danger to your kid, but I didn't want to be hypocritical given my own kid has had an overuse injury herself!

twotone wrote:upper95 makes a good point. while the referee does have a hand in the management of the game, he/she can only "control" what happens AFTER your player gets the crap kicked out of them. What I mean by this is that the elbow to the back of the head that most are talking about in this thread occurs before the whistle is blown and a foul can be called. There's no way the referee can anticipate a player's actions before they happen, even if we can all see it coming.

If you want to sue anybody, sue the opposing player for her actions. Good luck with that, but you'd have better luck there than suing a referee.

you make good points, but one thing overlooked is that if referees crack down on this behavior than players will be less likely in the future to play, and coaches to coach, this way and the cycle will slowly come to an end, to a great degree, because there would be consequences to their actions.

and for the millionth time, i'm not looking to sue!

Hooligan wrote:

soccersounder wrote:I think the real problem is that there is only 3 or 4 of us Referees here in this forum... 95% of the Refs have no idea this site even exist... So the complaints are basically for not... 70% of the Refs have done this for far longer than we have been soccer experts (parents) and they will continue to Ref how they see fit.. But when you say injuries are the Refs fault? Maybe if I run over an 11 year old when I'm following the play.... Soccer is no different from other youth team sports when it comes to injuries..

This from USA Today:
"• Football resulted in both the highest number of all pediatric injuries (394,350) and the highest concussion rate (40 per 10,000 athletes). Wrestling and cheerleading had the second- and third-highest concussion rates (15 per 10,000 athletes and 12 per 10,000 athletes, respectively).

• Ice hockey had the highest percentage (31%) of concussion injuries; its rate was 10 per 10,000 athletes."

Soccer not even mentioned

And this from Nationwidechildren:

Overuse injuries such as stress fractures, tendinitis, bursitis, apophysitis and osteochondral injuries of the joint surface were rarely seen when children spent more time engaging in free play. The following risk factors predispose young athletes to overuse injuries:

Sport specialization at a young age
Imbalance of strength or joint range of motion
Anatomic malalignment
Improper footwear
Pre-existing condition
Growth cartilage less resistant to repetitive microtrauma
Intense, repetitive training during periods of growth

This squarely point the blame at us parents

Soccer ref glasses are way different that Soccer parent glasses. As a Ref, I (we) do not root for a team. Our kid is not playing... As a parent, I try my best not to say much to the Refs.... Getting better at that every year

I am calling BS.  You didn't have a link in there, so I went to USA Today and searched. (actually I went to google and searched on "kids sports injuries statistics" and the USA Today article was first in the list).  As far as injuries go, Soccer is 3rd behind Football and Basketball in this article...and you said it wasn't mentioned...

hell i saw a dateline nbc show that said that girls soccer was like #2 in concussions! but these posts are dredging up "facts" that are not even related to the post topic of referees, overuse injury is a whole separate issue. but whatever...

Kicks.... you brought up suing dude. Own it!!! no matter what you tried to do by saying you weren't planning to sue, you are the poster that brought it up so now it's a part of the discussion.

I'll add to my point about suing the player. If the player commits the same foul 4 different times and the ref hasn't called it, then we can talk about the referee being negligent. But he'll either say he didn't deem it a foul (which the Laws allow the referee to determine a foul/no foul) or he'll say the other incidents weren't fouls but the 4th one was different for whatever reason.

But there's not a single thing any ref could do if an injury occurred on the first foul of the game by a player "intentionally" trying to injure an opponent. The referee can only call a foul AFTER it's been committed. that's just what it is. If it's the first time that particular foul has happened in a game, then the ref can mark it and red card all he wants, but the player is still injured. It is what it is. and that's the fouling players fault. it's not any negligence of the referee because the PLAYER CHOSE TO FOUL.

Coach& Ref, you're going to have to quit reffing games buddy. You're gonna get sued if you don't crack down on fouls in a game that cause injury. It doesn't even have to be the game that your officiating when the player gets hurt. You can get sued for not cracking down 3 games before to show the team & coach that these are the rules and they are being enforced this way. You know, cause it's your job to teach the rules to the teams in the middle of a game. It ain't worth it buddy. quit now before someone brings you under lawsuit for that overuse injury their kid suffered after you let them get kicked in the same ankle 3 times in that game 1 month ago... then they practiced on it.... then they played in 3 other games where they got kicked in the ankle by other teams in games officiated by other refs..... but you didn't teach those bad people.... Aw screw it. I give up.