Last 3 D2 Matches: CPP Questions Posed

The last 3 matches of the the season will be very interesting and revealing.  The CPP train now only allows one passenger. Teams with, eh-hem, 'significant injuries' will have to make due one player to fill-in for all of the roster carnage. Much has been written and disputed on the use of CPP players this Spring season, so here are some direct questions to be answered. Forum Brethren are encouraged to use to game data to justify answers, so we can reach a reasonable, balanced solution. Please no biting, spitting or eye gouging.

As of this day, 3/27/14, does anyone know:

1. Which D2 team has used the most CPP?

2. Which D2 team has used the least CPP (or none)?

3. Which team(s) have benefited the most from the CPP? If so, who are the top 3?

4. Effective Use of CPP Primer: Since some team have multiple injuries and are only allowed to use one CCP, which position should a coach pick for the biggest bang for the buck?

Ok, why not:

1. East, then Gold
2. Guessing the Bus is in the mix, Feet, I'm sure there's more
3. East, then Gold. Or Gold, then East. Oh wait, SF got a big boost....
4. Start defensively, then move forward

backofthenet wrote:Ok, why not:

1. East, then Gold
2. Guessing the Bus is in the mix, Feet, I'm sure there's more
3. East, then Gold. Or Gold, then East. Oh wait, SF got a big boost....
4. Start defensively, then move forward

I knew I could count on you Net!
1. Not that I disbelieved dad (or to co-sign) for dad, but after SG beat SCP, I ran their roster thru the NSA database... They just started using a borrowed keeper this Spring... From what I can tell, it's the only position that they've used an off-roster player.

FCDE: seems to have definitely benefited ; it appears they were injured last fall as well. Been quite a rise in rankings since last mid- fall...

2. I'm not sure where Bus could have gotten one from. Couldn't find where feet used CPP or the dual roster... Still working on the other ones.

3. SF: it appears it kept them out of the relegation mix

4. Midfield if running  flatback 4 , sweeper if running diamond.

Still working on the others...

I can't speak for other teams since I am not a team manager, but I can speak for my dds team...SG has used exactly ONE CPP (at GK) per game in the spring, and we will use it exactly the same way for the last 3 games unless there is an unassigned GK out there that signs with us...then we won't use the pass at all. I can't speak for other teams, but the game day rosters list ALL players and designate the CPPs, so your team manager can actually tell you how many and what number jerseys the CPPs are...and which teams have used one (or more). We have used 2 girls in this role...one from D1, one from PPL 1 (and as far as I know, we are the only team that has played one UP). This has been and will be determined by the availability and willingness of the player and the sending coach.
Both of those girls have played well, and neither of our goals given up, nor losses is in any way the GKs "fault" any more than any other player; however, the benefit to our team is not as much any particular save as it is the ability of our defense to relax and play and thus worry less about having a field player wearing a pinnie in goal (though in the 7 games we did that, she played VERY well). All of our other injuries have been absorbed by the bench (there have been an average of more than two out per game).
SG has benefited from the rule, but I would argue that it didn't make us different than what we were before the injury to our GK occurred. We are different than we were at the end of fall when we played a field player in goal for the last 3 games, but we are very similar to what we were before our GK was injured...
And as far as advice on HOW to use it...it depends on what you need and how you can cover for the loss of a player. The specialization of a position like GK is a no-brainer for me unless you have one on your bench. Nobody scores too many goals, so a goal scoring machine would be good...but you don't lose if you never give a goal up...replacing a Center mid may give your offense a spark or it may throw off all timing...I think it is risky to unbalance your team with a new player that hasn't gelled, but isn't that why we pay the coaches the big bucks??

I know CPP is technically different from dual-rostering ECNL players, but the effect (and abuse) is the same. It's hard to see D2 teams that use dual rostering ECNL players take issue with teams using CPP.

OK, I think that the rule should change so that a player cannot play down, only up (or at the same level) just as it is done in the boys league. That being said, my team went through a very difficult time when our goalie had her arm broken in a tournament right before the season started. We had to use field players to fill in. This left us short in field rotation and when we had field injuries, we were barely able to field enough players to play a game. So yes, I think it is a good thing to be able to use a player pass to help. So to Dad's point, I think his team is doing exactly right.

Unfortunately, there are always those who could use a rule like this to their advantage to shameless self promotion up ratings. As they say, rules are always made to be broken (or stretched thin). There will always be those who act with integrity and those who skirt it. In the long run, we all have to live with the decisions we make.

saywhat wrote:I know CPP is technically different from dual-rostering ECNL players, but the effect (and abuse) is the same.  It's hard to see D2 teams that use dual rostering ECNL players take issue with teams using CPP.  

So in the event a player is rostered with their LH team prior to being rostered for ECNL, what then? Is that a competitive advantage for a player to sign with their team, then a month later sign with ECNL?

backofthenet wrote:

saywhat wrote:I know CPP is technically different from dual-rostering ECNL players, but the effect (and abuse) is the same.  It's hard to see D2 teams that use dual rostering ECNL players take issue with teams using CPP.  

So in the event a player is rostered with their LH team prior to being rostered for ECNL, what then? Is that a competitive advantage for a player to sign with their team, then a month later sign with ECNL?

How many coaches do the ECNL teams have? I have seen as many as four on the sidelines. How much additional training do they receive? If you take any level of player and give them individualized instruction, along with increasing touches on the ball, I’m certain they will improve. So in answer to your question, yes, it matters. The original team also benefits by having a super-charged player come and model quality play.  The opposing teams benefit by having tougher competition.  Ideally, everyone gets developed and the level of play rises.

maggiemae wrote:

backofthenet wrote:

saywhat wrote:I know CPP is technically different from dual-rostering ECNL players, but the effect (and abuse) is the same.  It's hard to see D2 teams that use dual rostering ECNL players take issue with teams using CPP.  

So in the event a player is rostered with their LH team prior to being rostered for ECNL, what then? Is that a competitive advantage for a player to sign with their team, then a month later sign with ECNL?

How many coaches do the ECNL teams have? I have seen as many as four on the sidelines. How much additional training do they receive? If you take any level of player and give them individualized instruction, along with increasing touches on the ball, I’m certain they will improve. So in answer to your question, yes, it matters. The original team also benefits by having a super-charged player come and model quality play.  The opposing teams benefit by having tougher competition.  Ideally, everyone gets developed and the level of play rises.

So, in your mind, there is an advantage?  What about the LH player that gets individualized instruction 2 days a week, outside of her team practice?  Is she benefiting? Is she helping her team get better? You cannot penalize a player who chooses more.  Some players are driven competitively, different from others.  Just because a D2 player chooses not to play ECNL doesn't mean they are a lesser player. In face, ECNL is riddled with players who simpy want to say I'm on ECNL, when in fact they may not need to be in that environment.  Why do you think these ECNL rosters changeover by nearly 1/3-1/2 every year?  I'm not sure I understand your perspective.  

And back to my point, if a D2 rostered player gets a chance and takes it on ECNL, you can't punish her.  It would be different if ECNL, then she chose to play down as a competitive advantage. Or what if that ECNL player simply wants to play with a set of friends or a particular coach?  Heaven forbid.

See what you started, silly Packrabbit??? I haven't even had my coffee and donuts this morning!

backofthenet wrote:

saywhat wrote:I know CPP is technically different from dual-rostering ECNL players, but the effect (and abuse) is the same.  It's hard to see D2 teams that use dual rostering ECNL players take issue with teams using CPP.  

So in the event a player is rostered with their LH team prior to being rostered for ECNL, what then? Is that a competitive advantage for a player to sign with their team, then a month later sign with ECNL?

Net- your use of  your dual rostered player is totally appropriate.

1st, a vast majority of dual rostered players don't pay the ECNL dues and they rarely see the ECNL playing field. It also keeps those players from hooking up with another ECNL club during the season (ex, a D1 solar player, who isn't dual rostered, could join  another clubs ECNL roster during the LH season).

2nd,Dual rostering is there to provide flexibility to the ECNL team and to provide opportunity to kids with potential, who aren't quite ready for ECNL game day. It allows players to play weekly matches, while training with an ECNL team. Training without a game day sucks.

Lastly, if your dual player is a major contributor to her ECNL team, but choses to stay committed to helping her D2 team, I think that is a positive reflection on the young lady and doesn't require any type of justification or apology. Comparing your case to the CPP abuse happening now just isn't applicable.  If ECNL could come snatch away players, it would create more tension and rivalry within the club, especially if the "snatched" player didn't get to consistently play.

Just saying that we can all imagine situations where there are appropriate uses to both and inappropriate uses to both. To say one is subject to abuse and the other isn't -- doesn't seem right, IMHO. People's opinion on whether ECNL DR/CPP is appropriate or inappropriate will likely be colored by which receiving end they are on.

InaB wrote:OK, I think that the rule should change so that a player cannot play down, only up (or at the same level) just as it is done in the boys league. That being said, my team went through a very difficult time when our goalie had her arm broken in a tournament right before the season started. We had to use field players to fill in. This left us short in field rotation and when we had field injuries, we were barely able to field enough players to play a game. So yes, I think it is a good thing to be able to use a player pass to help. So to Dad's point, I think his team is doing exactly right.

Unfortunately, there are always those who could use a rule like this to their advantage to shameless self promotion up ratings. As they say, rules are always made to be broken (or stretched thin). There will always be those who act with integrity and those who skirt it. In the long run, we all have to live with the decisions we make.

Perhaps there are a few other things to consider. If injuries are such a huge factor, then I suggest that we also look at which teams which were both helped and hurt by them. If everyone could please provide a list of details regarding the injured it would be most helpful. Please include position played, whether or not they were a starter and of course which game(s) they missed. This will help solve the mystery of which team has earned the right to stay in D2. Should we point fingers at the teams with overly aggressive players for significantly altering a team’s ability to maintain their D2 spot?
SG: Apparently their goalie has been down for a while. They had to use a field player last season, which would mean everyone who beat them should be grateful they were in a weakened state. I guess we need to figure out which games they used a D1 goalie vs the Plano player so that the opposing teams can drum up some righteous indignation
FCD East: How many games exactly have they used their player? Why haven’t we heard more wailing and gnashing of teeth? How much has this impacted the overall standings? By the way, both DTX N and Sting F played them when they had this “advantage”. I guess we just accepted it (perhaps some appreciated or at least understood it) and moved on. Same applies to the team who is dual rostering ECNL players.

Sting F: Like Solar, our goalie was injured throughout the fall and so we used a field player in goal for the majority of the games. Do we get bonus points for those wins? At least our losses are explained away. Sting F beat Spence in the Fall when we were in a weakened state, but somehow in the Spring the team loses its credibility to repeat the same win? Get your smelling salts ready… Injuries are responsible for the coach’s decision to use CPP some of which have been Plano players. In fact, the same girls guested for the Texas Cup. The team is deeply grateful for their help because we really do have an abnormally large number of injuries. Honestly, there are Plano players (and teams) who are as talented or perhaps even more talented (audible gasp) than LH players. Didn’t Sporting FC, a D1 Plano team, just recently beat the team sitting in 3rd place in LH D1? Haven’t a few D2 teams also been beaten lately by lower ‘ranked’ teams? Much to our chagrin, Sting F has.
Lastly, it is really difficult to figure out the intent. Perhaps we could take a break from pointing fingers.

Didn't really want to get in on this conversation but since FC Dallas East seems to be part of it, I thought I should set the record straight.

We are not using player pass to enhance our position. We were using it for how we saw it was intended. To give players a chance to play. One girl, now transferred to our roster from a younger age group and another 00' (from a DIII 99' team) that was looking for some play time while her teammates were finishing high school season. We have not brought in "ringers" to enhance our position as we knew we would finish around 4-5 like we are. The girl that is now on our roster makes a difference and we are happy to have her, and the other girl is a great player as well. But the team is playing better because the girls have gelled and great coaching.

We have won all the same games we won in the fall plus 2 others that we did not. We didn't have any cpp's when we played FCD Premier and the one that is rostered with us now is the only one that played in the game against D'feeters. (We were missing 4 starters that game and still pulled through!)

We added a lot of new players this year and it's taken a while for them to gel. They are playing better because they have worked hard to come together as a team. It's as simple as that.

As for the CPP rule, hopefully teams will use it to benefit players and not bring in ringers to benefit team standings.

Hope this sheds some light on the situation.

maggiemae wrote:

InaB wrote:OK, I think that the rule should change so that a player cannot play down, only up (or at the same level) just as it is done in the boys league. That being said, my team went through a very difficult time when our goalie had her arm broken in a tournament right before the season started. We had to use field players to fill in. This left us short in field rotation and when we had field injuries, we were barely able to field enough players to play a game. So yes, I think it is a good thing to be able to use a player pass to help. So to Dad's point, I think his team is doing exactly right.

Unfortunately, there are always those who could use a rule like this to their advantage to shameless self promotion up ratings. As they say, rules are always made to be broken (or stretched thin). There will always be those who act with integrity and those who skirt it. In the long run, we all have to live with the decisions we make.

Perhaps there are a few other things to consider. If injuries are such a huge factor, then I suggest that we also look at which teams which were both helped and hurt by them.  If everyone could please provide a list of details regarding the injured it would be most helpful.  Please include position played, whether or not they were a starter and of course which game(s) they missed.  This will help solve the mystery of which team has earned the right to stay in D2. Should we point fingers at the teams with overly aggressive players for significantly altering a team’s ability to maintain their D2 spot?      
SG: Apparently their goalie has been down for a while.  They had to use a field player last season, which would mean everyone who beat them should be grateful they were in a weakened state.  I guess we need to figure out which games they used a D1 goalie vs the Plano player so that the opposing teams can drum up some righteous indignation
FCD East: How many games exactly have they used their player?  Why haven’t we heard more wailing and gnashing of teeth?  How much has this impacted the overall standings?  By the way, both DTX N and Sting F played them when they had this “advantage”.  I guess we just accepted it (perhaps some appreciated or at least understood it) and moved on.  Same applies to the team who is dual rostering ECNL players.

Sting F: Like Solar, our goalie was injured throughout the fall and so we used a field player in goal for the majority of the games.  Do we get bonus points for those wins?  At least our losses are explained away.  Sting F beat Spence in the Fall when we were in a weakened state, but somehow in the Spring the team loses its credibility to repeat the same win? Get your smelling salts ready… Injuries are responsible for the coach’s decision to use CPP some of which have been Plano players.  In fact, the same girls guested for the Texas Cup.  The team is deeply grateful for their help because we really do have an abnormally large number of injuries.  Honestly, there are Plano players (and teams) who are as talented or perhaps even more talented (audible gasp) than LH players.  Didn’t Sporting FC, a D1 Plano team, just recently beat the team sitting in 3rd place in LH D1?  Haven’t a few D2 teams also been beaten lately by lower ‘ranked’ teams?  Much to our chagrin, Sting F has.  
Lastly, it is really difficult to figure out the intent.  Perhaps we could take a break from pointing fingers.

Who's pointing fingers? This is all for discussion and opinion. If someone on here can't take the heat, then they shouldn't participate in the discussion.

I, for one, find some of the discussion fascinating, and some to be quite boring.

Curious as to which team(s) are rostering ECNL players, how many rostered, and so forth....?

00soccer wrote:Didn't really want to get in on this conversation but since FC Dallas East seems to be part of it, I thought I should set the record straight.

We are not using player pass to enhance our position. We were using it for how we saw it was intended. To give players a chance to play. One girl, now transferred to our roster from a younger age group and another 00' (from a DIII 99' team) that was looking for some play time while her teammates were finishing high school season. We have not brought in "ringers" to enhance our position as we knew we would finish around 4-5 like we are. The girl that is now on our roster makes a difference and we are happy to have her, and the other girl is a great player as well. But the team is playing better because the girls have gelled and great coaching.

We have won all the same games we won in the fall plus 2 others that we did not. We didn't have any cpp's when we played FCD Premier and the one that is rostered with us now is the only one that played in the game against D'feeters. (We were missing 4 starters that game and still pulled through!)

We added a lot of new players this year and it's taken a while for them to gel. They are playing better because they have worked hard to come together as a team. It's as simple as that.

As for the CPP rule, hopefully teams will use it to benefit players and not bring in ringers to benefit team standings.

Hope this sheds some light on the situation.

  let there be light

Who wants to play poker with me. Five card draw. I get 14 wilds cards of my choosing, you get zero. Next week I'll make it more fair for you.......I wouldn't want the results to be skewed. I get five wild cards, you still get zero. Any takers?

With odds like that...I'd be looking for a new poker league.

Same odds as the CPP rule. I only have a 27% advantage in the first instance and a 9% advantage on the second. I forgot to mention, this is a LH poker league, so I get 6 days of poker competition (AKA gambling) with my 27% advantage. To keep it fair, you get the last 3 days with only a 9% disadvantage. Who's in?

Its not a mandatory league.

Neither is the LH poker league. I'm still waiting on the flood of competitors to jump on this great deal.

I'm just confused....

maggiemae wrote:
Sting F beat Spence in the Fall when we were in a weakened state, but somehow in the Spring the team loses its credibility to repeat the same win?

No; the CLUB (I would say coach, but as I understand it he was absent during the Sting F vs. Spence game) looses credibility when they bring in 2 DI players on CPP while having healthy players for the same position(s) on the bench. The CLUB looses more credibility when it plays those 2 DI players 95+% of the game while allowing the healthy roster players < 5 minutes play time for the entire game.

IMO, the TEAM looses credibility when they try to justify, embellish, spin, or stretch the truth in order to support the club's actions.

I thought youth soccer was all about development? Why all the fuss over losing? Would it not be logical that a if D2 player "gets" to play against ECNL or D1 players that would help her development?

Anybody have any popcorn?

Not trying to justify, embellish, spin, or stretch. Just pointing out that when the two teams last met the same result was achieved. If the intent of the CLUB was to avoid relegation, why would they not have used D1 players for all of the games until the team is in the clear? Could there be another reason? Hasn't it already been provided?