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Post by SWGSB 52 02/06/14, 11:07 am

10sDad wrote:My solution:
Modify the rule - due to qualifying requirements, allow U-11 teams (only) to begin signing on June 15th, as they do not have State Cup or regionals/nationals for U-10.

I like that idea. U-11 appears to be basis for this tournament due to the number of teams involved and the academy leagues are much closer in overall competitiveness. Making it tougher to seed for Classic League, PPL & APL.

It will be interesting to see how many U-12 and up teams decide not to attend this seeding tournament. You are only working with 16-24 teams in each of these age groups and their seeding is much easier based on their prior competitive league and tournament results.

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Post by dobbers 02/06/14, 11:19 am

Also, there are many teams that are adding players and feel they are much stronger this year. This is in the U12 and up ages. I can see those teams going to the tournament for a better ranking that what they ended up with last year. The addition of 1-2 players in the right spots can make all the difference. I still can't see why anyone would not want to participate in this one

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Post by Triumph FC 02/06/14, 11:31 am

Odyssey had a warm up seeding tournament this very weekend a good few years back. Ask them why it doesn't exist and you'll get some insight into why it's a nightmare. You are right it might force them to change the rules
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Post by wxyz 02/06/14, 01:01 pm

10sDad wrote:My solution:
Modify the rule - due to qualifying requirements, allow U-11 teams (only) to begin signing on June 15th, as they do not have State Cup or regionals/nationals for U-10.

It is kind of cute that you think you could modify a rule that could be undue burden to comply for clubs. Let us know when this get done.

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Post by jae 02/06/14, 01:15 pm

10sDad wrote:
jae wrote:Let's all agree to disagree and drop this nonsensical banter.
In any society, community, entity, or organization, there are rules or laws that are not always enforced because of difficulties in identifying/enforcing or because they are simply outdated or stupid.  There are rules/laws and there are generally accepted practices/behaviors.

So you are stating that clubs should be allowed to recruit, commit and receive commitments prior to July 1 in conflict with the stated rule due to the fact that it already happens to a degree already (generally accepted practices), or are you calling the rule itself outdated and stupid?  

...or...did the Obama reference hit you someplace sensitive?

The point of laws and rules of governance is that they are to be enforced.  If you disagree with the law, work to get it changed - but until such time as the law is changed, it is still the law/rule.

I am bringing this up as NTX seems to be forcing an undue burden on teams/managers to comply with the rules.  NTX needs to re-evaluate whether or not to amend the rule, or modify the seeding tournament rules.  The two are nearly in direct conflict, and from the same governing body...which makes one or the other an undue burden to comply.

I guess you are one of those upstanding citizens who never drive faster than posted speed limits, or petitioning your local transportation department to raise the speed limits everywhere, and demanding the police department to monitor every road 24x7 to enforce the speed limits...

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Post by 10sDad 02/06/14, 03:36 pm

 
jae wrote:
10sDad wrote:
jae wrote:Let's all agree to disagree and drop this nonsensical banter.
In any society, community, entity, or organization, there are rules or laws that are not always enforced because of difficulties in identifying/enforcing or because they are simply outdated or stupid.  There are rules/laws and there are generally accepted practices/behaviors.

So you are stating that clubs should be allowed to recruit, commit and receive commitments prior to July 1 in conflict with the stated rule due to the fact that it already happens to a degree already (generally accepted practices), or are you calling the rule itself outdated and stupid?  

...or...did the Obama reference hit you someplace sensitive?

The point of laws and rules of governance is that they are to be enforced.  If you disagree with the law, work to get it changed - but until such time as the law is changed, it is still the law/rule.

I am bringing this up as NTX seems to be forcing an undue burden on teams/managers to comply with the rules.  NTX needs to re-evaluate whether or not to amend the rule, or modify the seeding tournament rules.  The two are nearly in direct conflict, and from the same governing body...which makes one or the other an undue burden to comply.

I guess you are one of those upstanding citizens who never drive faster than posted speed limits, or petitioning your local transportation department to raise the speed limits everywhere, and demanding  the police department to monitor every road 24x7 to enforce the speed limits...
nope...I speed from time to time (and I have been caught before too!)....but going before a judge and claiming that it is a generally accepted practice, or that the law is outdated or stupid, really won't help my defense will it? Point is, if I choose to break the law by going 160 on the PGBT trying to make it to the game at McInnish in time (did that - and made it just in time for kickoff), I had better be prepared to pay the consequences if caught. Would I like the PGBT to be an autobahn? sure! But until that happens, I am just counting my blessings each time I pass a cop on the side of the road and he doesn't pull me over and cite me...
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Post by jae 02/06/14, 04:24 pm

10sDad wrote: 
jae wrote:
10sDad wrote:
jae wrote:Let's all agree to disagree and drop this nonsensical banter.
In any society, community, entity, or organization, there are rules or laws that are not always enforced because of difficulties in identifying/enforcing or because they are simply outdated or stupid.  There are rules/laws and there are generally accepted practices/behaviors.

So you are stating that clubs should be allowed to recruit, commit and receive commitments prior to July 1 in conflict with the stated rule due to the fact that it already happens to a degree already (generally accepted practices), or are you calling the rule itself outdated and stupid?  

...or...did the Obama reference hit you someplace sensitive?

The point of laws and rules of governance is that they are to be enforced.  If you disagree with the law, work to get it changed - but until such time as the law is changed, it is still the law/rule.

I am bringing this up as NTX seems to be forcing an undue burden on teams/managers to comply with the rules.  NTX needs to re-evaluate whether or not to amend the rule, or modify the seeding tournament rules.  The two are nearly in direct conflict, and from the same governing body...which makes one or the other an undue burden to comply.

I guess you are one of those upstanding citizens who never drive faster than posted speed limits, or petitioning your local transportation department to raise the speed limits everywhere, and demanding  the police department to monitor every road 24x7 to enforce the speed limits...
nope...I speed from time to time (and I have been caught before too!)....but going before a judge and claiming that it is a generally accepted practice, or that the law is outdated or stupid, really won't help my defense will it?  Point is, if I choose to break the law by going 160 on the PGBT trying to make it to the game at McInnish in time (did that - and made it just in time for kickoff), I had better be prepared to pay the consequences if caught.  Would I like the PGBT to be an autobahn?  sure!  But until that happens, I am just counting my blessings each time I pass a cop on the side of the road and he doesn't pull me over and cite me...

Agreed.  Everyone speeds.  Also, I am sure that many coaches use phrases or words that may not exactly follow the letter of the rule.  Does NTSA constantly monitor and enforce?  Unlikely.  Do many coaches get in trouble?  Unlikely.  Will NTSA care if teams register for the placement tournament with next year's roster before July 1?  Maybe.  Will they track down those coaches who register for the placement tournament with next year's roster before July 1?  Unlikely.  So, will this conversation have any effect of how coaches and teams behave?  Unlikely.

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Post by Shelby427 02/06/14, 05:21 pm

jae wrote:
10sDad wrote: 
jae wrote:
10sDad wrote:
jae wrote:Let's all agree to disagree and drop this nonsensical banter.
In any society, community, entity, or organization, there are rules or laws that are not always enforced because of difficulties in identifying/enforcing or because they are simply outdated or stupid.  There are rules/laws and there are generally accepted practices/behaviors.

So you are stating that clubs should be allowed to recruit, commit and receive commitments prior to July 1 in conflict with the stated rule due to the fact that it already happens to a degree already (generally accepted practices), or are you calling the rule itself outdated and stupid?  

...or...did the Obama reference hit you someplace sensitive?

The point of laws and rules of governance is that they are to be enforced.  If you disagree with the law, work to get it changed - but until such time as the law is changed, it is still the law/rule.

I am bringing this up as NTX seems to be forcing an undue burden on teams/managers to comply with the rules.  NTX needs to re-evaluate whether or not to amend the rule, or modify the seeding tournament rules.  The two are nearly in direct conflict, and from the same governing body...which makes one or the other an undue burden to comply.

I guess you are one of those upstanding citizens who never drive faster than posted speed limits, or petitioning your local transportation department to raise the speed limits everywhere, and demanding  the police department to monitor every road 24x7 to enforce the speed limits...
nope...I speed from time to time (and I have been caught before too!)....but going before a judge and claiming that it is a generally accepted practice, or that the law is outdated or stupid, really won't help my defense will it?  Point is, if I choose to break the law by going 160 on the PGBT trying to make it to the game at McInnish in time (did that - and made it just in time for kickoff), I had better be prepared to pay the consequences if caught.  Would I like the PGBT to be an autobahn?  sure!  But until that happens, I am just counting my blessings each time I pass a cop on the side of the road and he doesn't pull me over and cite me...

Agreed.  Everyone speeds.  Also, I am sure that many coaches use phrases or words that may not exactly follow the letter of the rule.  Does NTSA constantly monitor and enforce?  Unlikely.  Do many coaches get in trouble?  Unlikely.  Will NTSA care if teams register for the placement tournament with next year's roster before July 1?  Maybe.  Will they track down those coaches who register for the placement tournament with next year's roster before July 1?  Unlikely.  So, will this conversation have any effect of how coaches and teams behave?  Unlikely.

Everyone Speeds? I only wish... tell that to the idiot cruising at or under in the left lane blocking traffic... You know who you are! Twisted Evil 

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Post by jae 02/06/14, 05:58 pm

Shelby427 wrote:
jae wrote:

Agreed.  Everyone speeds.  Also, I am sure that many coaches use phrases or words that may not exactly follow the letter of the rule.  Does NTSA constantly monitor and enforce?  Unlikely.  Do many coaches get in trouble?  Unlikely.  Will NTSA care if teams register for the placement tournament with next year's roster before July 1?  Maybe.  Will they track down those coaches who register for the placement tournament with next year's roster before July 1?  Unlikely.  So, will this conversation have any effect of how coaches and teams behave?  Unlikely.

Everyone Speeds? I only wish... tell that to the idiot cruising at or under in the left lane blocking traffic... You know who you are! Twisted Evil 

I stand corrected. Most people drive above the posted speed limit, especially on highways. We all break the law occasionally but most people do not get caught. Cops also do not enforce the law if you are driving only a few MPH above the posted limit. Similarly, NTSA does not enforce the rules if coaches occasionally use wrong phrases or words as long as they do not ask the player to sign/commit prior to July 1st.

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Post by meriusrex 03/06/14, 12:03 am

I think this is probably the funniest running conversation I've seen on here...it literally makes me chuckle Laughing lol! 

I can't help but wonder what the heck got Triumphs panties in a wad in the first place...

At the end of the day, it is what it is!
... kids end up on a team for a season (or longer), soccer gets practiced and played, money gets spent and received, kids develop and have fun (most of the time and in most cases) and parents either get what they expect out of it...or start the whole process of looking  for a new team this time next year.

I think we've given Triumph the impression anyone cares about his mutterings...ugh. So, my message to Triumph..."it'll be okay, it will ALL work out, rarely is anyone REALLY trying to scam NTX by-laws and work toward an unthinkable soccer injustice. Most of the time it's just the usual movement of soccer players and soccer coaches, all just looking for a great year of soccer."  Just breathe Triumph...relax...maybe get a few balls, head to a field, and let 'er rip bom

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Post by Triumph FC 03/06/14, 06:22 am

meriusrex wrote:I think this is probably the funniest running conversation I've seen on here...it literally makes me chuckle Laughing lol! 

I can't help but wonder what the heck got Triumphs panties in a wad in the first place...

At the end of the day, it is what it is!
... kids end up on a team for a season (or longer), soccer gets practiced and played, money gets spent and received, kids develop and have fun (most of the time and in most cases) and parents either get what they expect out of it...or start the whole process of looking  for a new team this time next year.

I think we've given Triumph the impression anyone cares about his mutterings...ugh. So, my message to Triumph..."it'll be okay, it will ALL work out, rarely is anyone REALLY trying to scam NTX by-laws and work toward an unthinkable soccer injustice. Most of the time it's just the usual movement of soccer players and soccer coaches, all just looking for a great year of soccer."  Just breathe Triumph...relax...maybe get a few balls, head to a field, and let 'er rip bom

What's funny is you say "we've given Triumph the impression anyone cares.
So what made you want to post? You didn't have to at all. The post was about the rules and yet you wanted to take pot shots, carry on as any news is good news. It sounds like you have an unhealthy obsession with us! Every post you had to mention Triumph. Excellent I say, carry on keep mentioning Triumph
 Very Happy 
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Post by the7wolf 03/06/14, 07:42 am

I think it's about time this rule changed. Once they allowed signing on July 1st and the freedom to allow training with other clubs on June 1st without a release, NTX set up a honey trap.

I don't honestly believe the rule benefits anybody as a player can simply not show up again once June 1st hits and if the by laws were followed exactly, the coach/team and player/parent would be in limbo even though everybody involved knows that kid is never coming back yet they are free to get a quickie divorce and Vegas style wedding all within the space of hours when July 1st hits. I'm not sure who that benefits.

If your significant other wants to cheat on you and is so easily lured away by the enticement/promises of others for a better life, would you really want to keep them tied to you by paperwork even though you both know the relationship is over? Again, who would that benefit beyond your own spite? I'm not saying either party is in the right, the significant other being lured away or the spouse forcing them to stay married for as long as possible but again, there's no benefit forcing a paper-only relationship up to the last moment possible.

I understand rules are there for a reason and it used to make sense but once signing day switched to July 1st, the term "tryouts" went out the window unless you only had 10 kids on July 1st or were forming a team from scratch. Free agency in June put the nail in the coffin. It forces a player who wants to leave not knowing 100% if they have a new home and a coach to not fill a spot for a kid they know 100% is never coming back.

Short of petty coaches who can't face reality, I don't think this archaic rule serves a purpose anymore. Players should be free agents once June 1st hits period. Before that date, an absolute zero tolerance approach is perfectly understandable because that truly can negatively affect all parties.
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Post by ItsMeAgain 03/06/14, 08:04 am

the7wolf wrote:
Short of petty coaches who can't face reality, I don't think this archaic rule serves a purpose anymore. Players should be free agents once June 1st hits period. Before that date, an absolute zero tolerance approach is perfectly understandable because that truly can negatively affect all parties.

 cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers 
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Post by 10sDad 03/06/14, 08:50 am

In short...if any team completes their registration for the seeding tournament prior to July 1st, it constitutes a written commitment to the players as the roster and photo are required to register.

So...nobody should register for this tournament before July 1st or you just admitted that you violated the NTX bylaws - therefore opening yourself up for possible prosecution...
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Post by Triumph FC 03/06/14, 09:16 am

10sDad wrote:In short...if any team completes their registration for the seeding tournament prior to July 1st, it constitutes a written commitment to the players as the roster and photo are required to register.

So...nobody should register for this tournament before July 1st or you just admitted that you violated the NTX bylaws - therefore opening yourself up for possible prosecution...

Finally someone is seeing how crazy this tournament is. It is easily possible to get all your paperwork and official roster in 6 days but you need your parents to be on top of it. You need a registrar to be organized and ready and a team manager to burn the midnight oil to make the July 6th deadline! Throw in July 4th celebrations and teams are already running out of time!
What happens if you only have 13 players? You play in the seeding tournament but can't enter LH QT unless you get 14 well the seeding tournament isn't any use to you then.
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Post by InaB 03/06/14, 12:57 pm

OK, bottom line is players need to have an avenue (and time) to check out other teams they might be interested in playing for. Also, teams need to have an opportunity to see other players who might be available for the coming year. These are called "open practices." If a club calls open practices try outs (which we all know open practices are a way to unofficially try out for a team) then semantically they are incorrect according to NTX rules.

So, to all teams looking to check out players (and players checking out teams), DO NOT call your "open practices" try outs. Why not call them Meet and Greet parties instead? Or, what about Soccer Exercise events? Maybe Foot Volleyball camps? Anything but Try Outs.   Razz

BTW, out of 40 postings on the 00 board, only one used the words try out. All others state "Open practices."

(Edited to add last sentence.)
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Post by Ed 03/06/14, 01:21 pm

InaB wrote:OK, bottom line is players need to have an avenue (and time) to check out other teams they might be interested in playing for. Also, teams need to have an opportunity to see other players who might be available for the coming year. These are called "open practices." If a club calls open practices try outs (which we all know open practices are a way to unofficially try out for a team) then semantically they are incorrect according to NTX rules.

So, to all teams looking to check out players (and players checking out teams), DO NOT call your "open practices" try outs. Why not call them Meet and Greet parties instead? Or, what about Soccer Exercise events? Maybe Foot Volleyball camps? Anything but Try Outs.   Razz

BTW, out of 40 postings on the 00 board, only one used the words try out. All others state "Open practices."  

(Edited to add last sentence.)

"Dog and Pony shows" may be the best term for what cannot be called "try outs"

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Post by Gunner9 03/06/14, 01:58 pm

With apologies to the Bard and G.Stein, tryouts are tryouts are tryouts.

Offers and acceptances are made all the time in June. Most parents won't risk a change without one. And without knowing who else is committed. That may be illegal, but it is reality.

When a rule is unenforceable, it may be time to revisit the rule itself.
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Post by InaB 03/06/14, 02:49 pm

Agreed Gunner.
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Post by Guest 03/06/14, 02:50 pm

It's too bad we don't have the appropriate organ music in the background to go with all of the soap opera drama. That's not a criticism, it's more of a wish list. C'mon Admin, step up your game!!!!   (I am stealing, I mean plagiarizing, I mean borrowing, I mean trying out, I mean it's an open practice disclaimer, see PackRabbit's disclaimer for proper context of this post)

PackRabbit is evaluating me, to see if I can be further developed as a troublemaker.....er team member.

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Post by Guest 03/06/14, 03:45 pm

Gophers FC is announcing Open Practices every night this week, with 2-a-days on Saturday and Sunday.  At the end of practice on Sunday, coach BW will post 2 lists of names.  The first list will contain the names of players that coach BW will definitely NOT be offering a roster spot to for the upcoming 2014-2015 soccer year.  The second list will contain 16 names.  Those are the players that coach BW has a "general interest" in for the 2014-2015 soccer year.

Thanks and stay hydrated (or is it sedated? I can never remember)!!!

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Post by theshifter 06/06/14, 04:16 pm

Triumph FC wrote:
10sDad wrote:In short...if any team completes their registration for the seeding tournament prior to July 1st, it constitutes a written commitment to the players as the roster and photo are required to register.

So...nobody should register for this tournament before July 1st or you just admitted that you violated the NTX bylaws - therefore opening yourself up for possible prosecution...

Finally someone is seeing how crazy this tournament is. It is easily possible to get all your paperwork and official roster in 6 days but you need your parents to be on top of it. You need a registrar to be organized and ready and a team manager to burn the midnight oil to make the July 6th deadline! Throw in July 4th celebrations and teams are already running out of time!
What happens if you only have 13 players? You play in the seeding tournament but can't enter LH QT unless you get 14 well the seeding tournament isn't any use to you then.


They would not be breaking any rules by registering for this tournament. Most coaches know at this time if they going to have a team or not. You would not turn in your roster until check-in which is going to be well after July 1...

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Post by Triumph FC 06/06/14, 04:21 pm

theshifter wrote:
Triumph FC wrote:
10sDad wrote:In short...if any team completes their registration for the seeding tournament prior to July 1st, it constitutes a written commitment to the players as the roster and photo are required to register.

So...nobody should register for this tournament before July 1st or you just admitted that you violated the NTX bylaws - therefore opening yourself up for possible prosecution...

Finally someone is seeing how crazy this tournament is. It is easily possible to get all your paperwork and official roster in 6 days but you need your parents to be on top of it. You need a registrar to be organized and ready and a team manager to burn the midnight oil to make the July 6th deadline! Throw in July 4th celebrations and teams are already running out of time!
What happens if you only have 13 players? You play in the seeding tournament but can't enter LH QT unless you get 14 well the seeding tournament isn't any use to you then.


They would not be breaking any rules by registering for this tournament. Most coaches know at this time if they going to have a team or not. You would not turn in your roster until check-in which is going to be well after July 1...

Who said anything about breaking any rules?
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Post by theshifter 06/06/14, 04:23 pm

Triumph FC wrote:
theshifter wrote:
Triumph FC wrote:
10sDad wrote:In short...if any team completes their registration for the seeding tournament prior to July 1st, it constitutes a written commitment to the players as the roster and photo are required to register.

So...nobody should register for this tournament before July 1st or you just admitted that you violated the NTX bylaws - therefore opening yourself up for possible prosecution...

Finally someone is seeing how crazy this tournament is. It is easily possible to get all your paperwork and official roster in 6 days but you need your parents to be on top of it. You need a registrar to be organized and ready and a team manager to burn the midnight oil to make the July 6th deadline! Throw in July 4th celebrations and teams are already running out of time!
What happens if you only have 13 players? You play in the seeding tournament but can't enter LH QT unless you get 14 well the seeding tournament isn't any use to you then.


They would not be breaking any rules by registering for this tournament. Most coaches know at this time if they going to have a team or not. You would not turn in your roster until check-in which is going to be well after July 1...

Who said anything about breaking any rules?

Well, the person who you responded to said it

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Post by Triumph FC 06/06/14, 04:33 pm

Best you quote them then instead of me
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Post by theshifter 06/06/14, 04:36 pm

Triumph FC wrote:Best you quote them then instead of me

I have a player I need to tell that I am interested in them, don't have time for you.

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