Referees - I need this explained to me !

Ok, it was always my understanding that IF an attacker was in an offside position, and a defender INTENTIONALLY played a ball back, and the attacker got hold of it then there was no offside foul.

However, we have seen two World Cup goals where there have been deflections off a defender (as opposed to an intentional backpass), that go to an attacker already in an offside position, and they are allowed to score.

The first was Suarez's goal against England, (ball skips of Gerrard, Suarez waaay offside already) and the second was Portugal's first goal today against USA. ( Cameron scuffs ball to three Portugal players all in offside position already).

So what gives?

I have to correct myself on one.. upon further viewings it looks like Nani was not offside when Cameron scuffed the ball.. so I remove that one from the question... but the Suarez questions stands.

Slakemoth wrote:Ok, it was always my understanding that IF an attacker was in an offside position, and a defender INTENTIONALLY played a ball back, and the attacker got hold of it then there was no offside foul.

However, we have seen two World Cup goals where there have been deflections off a defender (as opposed to an intentional backpass), that go to an attacker already in an offside position, and they are allowed to score.

The first was Suarez's goal against England, (ball skips of Gerrard, Suarez waaay offside already) and the second was Portugal's first goal today against USA. ( Cameron scuffs ball to three Portugal players all in offside position already).

So what gives?

A defender has to be deemed to be "in control" of the ball to have the backpass be considered intentional. A deflection to an attacker (from a defender) who is clearly in an offside position is not guilty of an offside infraction if this occurs.

Reading more clearly into that goal you are referring to, is that IF the deflection had come off the Uraguary player who happened to be standing behind Gerrard at the time (if I remember correctly), then Suarez would have been called.

Is that what you mean?

It is what I was talking about, but I'm still not clear. must the defender intentionally (with control) play the ball in order for it to NOT be considered offside, or will a simple deflection suffice.

Here is a link to an overhead shot of the sequence.

Suarez begins his run with the defenders when the keeper punts the ball.
Gerrard and Cavani both go up to try to head the ball. Cavani ( Uruguay) missed the ball completely, but the ball skips off od Gerrard's shoulder and continues forward to Suarez, who is in an offside position when the ball makes contact with Gerrard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhW1tQu5JyU

As the ball was hit forward to Suarez, he was onside. The fact the Gerrard flicked it is what allowed him to be onside. It doesn't matter if it was intentional or not. You can't penalize the attacker if a defender plays it towards their own goal.

Here is the thing. In that overhead view, Suarez isn't even in an offside position the moment the ball is played. If the ball had missed everyone altogether (Gerrard, Cavani,etc.), he still wouldn't have been guilty of an offside infraction.

Pause the video and see where he is the moment the ball is played.

In this case, he started his run, probably thinking that the ball was meant for him. It was meant for Cavani who didn't get a touch on it, but Gerrard did. This made Suarez not guilty of an offside infringement, no matter where he would have been standing.

At the point Gerrard touches the ball ( 3 second mark of the video), Suarerz is now offside. This is what I don't get. Gerrard doesn't intentionally play it back, the ball hits him. and skips forward. So even then Suarez isn't offside?

I found something about new offside rule language implemented by Fifa in 2013, but I cannot understand what it says. (Link below)
Here is a summary from another site:

According to a FIFA amendment to the offside rule last year, a player is offside if a ball “is deflected or is played to him from a deliberate save by an opponent having been in an offside position.”

And, as was the case with Mexico attacker Giovani Dos Santos against Cameroon, Suarez received the ball off a deflection from England captain Steven Gerrard.

The only exception to the rule is: “a player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent, who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save), is not considered to have gained an advantage.”

Suarez and Gerrard are Liverpool teammates but it is stretching it to to describe the Englishman’s deflected header as a deliberate assist.

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/02/10/67/39/circularno.1362-amendmentstothelawsofthegame-2013-2014_neutral.pdf

I think I understand what you are saying now.

In this scenario, the AR must have deemed Gerrard to have "controlled" the ball, like when you see players heading it backwards to their keepers. There was a player behind Gerrard (don't know who), that it could have been that in the "opinion of the referee", the flick back was intended to go to him and be considered intentional rather than just a deflection. That, or, he could have just gotten it wrong, because it seems like his positioning was just a yard or two behind the last defender.

Alright, thanks for clarifying.
Ultimately I'm thinking the ref got it wrong. (but the lack of England players complaining when it happened confused me). I do not think Gerrard intentionally "flicked" the ball back towards Hart, so as a simple deflection, Suarez should have been off... right?

These gifs show the entire sequence. I swear I recall seeing a camera view that shows the ball skip off Gerrard's shoulder, but anyway.

http://thebiglead.com/2014/06/19/luis-suarezs-second-goal-probably-finished-off-england-at-the-2014-world-cup/

The key is Suarez was not in an offside position when the ball was last played by a teammate. Had he been off when the keeper punted the ball, the Gerrard botched header MAYBE would've been considered a deflection, and Suarez maybe would've been considered offside.

The language in the law uses the word "deliberate", and you probably don't want to get into all the minutiae refs have to use when trying to apply this. I'll just say there is a camp that would say Gerrard deliberately leaped and attempted to play the ball...just because he botched it doesn't mean he didn't deliberately attempt to play it....i.e. Nani's goal against U.S. There is a camp that considers a non deliberate deflection to be the ball hitting a player and ricocheting off.

There is no uproar from England in the press because Suarez was onside when the ball was originally played, therefore the new deflection rule doesn't apply.

Slakemoth wrote:Ok, it was always my understanding that IF an attacker was in an offside position, and a defender INTENTIONALLY played a ball back, and the attacker got hold of it then there was no offside foul.

However, we have seen two World Cup goals where there have been deflections off a defender (as opposed to an intentional backpass), that go to an attacker already in an offside position, and they are allowed to score.

The first was Suarez's goal against England, (ball skips of Gerrard, Suarez waaay offside already) and the second was Portugal's first goal today against USA. ( Cameron scuffs ball to three Portugal players all in offside position already).

So what gives?

I COPIED THIS FROM LOTG

A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:
• interfering with play or
• interfering with an opponent or
• gaining an advantage by being in that position

THE WAY I READ THAT, if the ball comes from the defender, you are not penalized for being in an offside position.

Pale Rider wrote:

Slakemoth wrote:Ok, it was always my understanding that IF an attacker was in an offside position, and a defender INTENTIONALLY played a ball back, and the attacker got hold of it then there was no offside foul.

However, we have seen two World Cup goals where there have been deflections off a defender (as opposed to an intentional backpass), that go to an attacker already in an offside position, and they are allowed to score.

The first was Suarez's goal against England, (ball skips of Gerrard, Suarez waaay offside already) and the second was Portugal's first goal today against USA. ( Cameron scuffs ball to three Portugal players all in offside position already).

So what gives?

I COPIED THIS FROM LOTG

A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:
• interfering with play or
• interfering with an opponent or
• gaining an advantage by being in that position

THE WAY I READ THAT, if the ball comes from the defender, you are not penalized for being in an offside position.  

With a deflection the ball is not considered to be in control by a defender.  Therefore, when the ball is deflected by head or foot the question is where was the attacking player when the ball was originally kicked by teammate.

None of the above mentions plays were offside!

Let me ask this.. IF Nani had been in an offside position when the Portugal player struck the ball, and Cameron scuffed the clearance as he did.....

Would Nani have been whistled for offside?

Slakemoth wrote:Let me ask this.. IF Nani had been in an offside position when the Portugal player struck the ball, and Cameron scuffed the clearance as he did.....

Would Nani have been whistled for offside?

He wouldn't..because Cameron making a botched clearance is a deliberate play on the ball which "resets" the offside line so to speak...at that point the ball wasn't played to Nani by a teammate or a deflection so becomes onside.

We'd have offside if Cameron was facing goal or some other direction and the ball hit him in the back the head then bounced over to Nani standing in an offside position. Also if somehow the ball bounced over Cameron and Howard parried it out to Nani...we get offside. If ball hit post and rebounds to Nani...offside. Defender shanks it to feet of any decent attacker in offside position at the 6? Usually a goal.

I agree with 4-3-3.

ok, got it...

I think it comes down to what I had always interpreted "deliberate" to mean. in my mind it was always "a conscious decision to play a ball to someone" (meaning a defender turns around and makes a backpass to the keeper).

It seems that "deliberate" means more along the line of "a conscious effort to strike the ball" ( in the case of Cameron swiping at the ball, or Gerrard attempting to head it.) where that ball actually goes in not important.. the fact that you tried is what makes it "deliberate" as opposed to an accidental deflection.

clear as mud... til the next time.