player pass should be revoked

In my humble, unsolicited, opinion - CPP has no impact on these kids that are U11-U13 (can't comment on U14 and above)... it impacts the parents but really has no impact on the kids accept that they get to play more soccer or at a different level or with different kids... at this age it matters more to the parents and since they make a big deal out of it, usually in front of their DD, pissing and moaning about the fact that they lost because the other team used CPP, then darling Susy gets all bent outta shape cause "Mommy and Daddy are mad because 'said team' used CPP to bring a D1 player or two - mommy or daddy said we would have won otherwise". This age group normally doesn't know or care about CPP accept what WE, the parents, tell them about it. They wanna play soccer. It's the parents feeling of entitlement or their "money being wasted" because darling Susy's team just got beat by a team they thought they were gonna definitely beat - again, that's the parents likely hyping the game to the kiddos - "you got an easy one this weekend cause you're playing #7 out of a possible 10 teams" (I think that's the example someone used on here for the 04s). Guess who wouldn't care if it was never mentioned? The kids, they play soccer cause they enjoy the game, the parents piss and moan cause it's their dollar and by golly, if their DD's team can't or won't utilize a rule that was put in place by the league, then it can't be fair. However, everyone seems to push to be in LH knowing the CPP is there and likely WILL be used. So I don't get it - go to another league, play rec, you want in so bad and willing to pay the money until you're the recipient of a loss created by the very rules you pay for. Talk about a double standard. My DD plays on a team that has used the CPP and has had the CPP used against it - I like it - I like that it keeps everyone honest. Nothing is guaranteed and it shouldn't be at this age group. However, as many have mentioned, it comes down to the almighty dollar, not just from a parents perspective, but also from a coach and club perspective. You don't win, players move on taking their money with them. So goes the world of NTX girls youth soccer. Piss and moan all you want, but when CPP levels the playing field and presses top teams to play better against unsuspecting teams, I don't see anything wrong with that - everyone learns a lesson then.

On a side note, I read through the posts that someone posted above for the 04s... seems TX Spirit Red tied the #1 team this past weekend without using CPP according to a parent from the opposing team (team that was tied for first this past weekend). So a few weeks back they beat the #1 team by utilizing CPP - begs to question whether the CPP was the actual culprit of their win or not - maybe it would have ended in a tie instead? Just playing devils advocate here. And no, my DD has no affiliation with either team or club accept that we all have friends that are associated with some team somehow. Sounds to me like some folks on that forum were using CPP as an excuse for a loss instead of what it was actually used for which was to level the playing field as it does in almost all uses. Haven't seen CPP used to sway a blowout loss to a blowout win by anyone in the 02's or 03's has anyone else?

soccersounder wrote:

KnKsDad wrote:Can anyone cite examples of CPP's being used to play up in division?

As a Ref, I saw it several times last year. I have saw it once this year, so far. When a 99 Meja team CPP'd a 00 player to help out because of injuries

Thanks for feedback. In this case I can see why they may have had to with a younger player being they are an independent. I'm still interested in knowing about CPP's playing up in division within same age group.

bwgophers wrote:

KnKsDad wrote:Can anyone cite examples of CPP's being used to play up in division?

bwgophers wrote:

PrimeTime wrote:
I guess I still am looking for examples of the CPP being used in the other direction, whereby a player plays up vs their normal respective division (i.e. D2 to D1, D1 to ECNL and actually plays not just there to round out the 30 player roster).

3 players from my DD's U14 D1 team (2 Field, 1 GK) CPP'd with a U15 D1/PL team in U15 Premier League games this fall.  The 2 field players played 50% or more in both games played that weekend, 1 win and 1 loss.

Again, my question was same as PrimeTimes, when has CPP been used to play up in division within same age group?

slrsoccer wrote:At the risk of getting slotted by you lot, I am going to go out on a limb here.  These are one persons opinions, nothing more, nothing less.

I agree that kids are a member of a "team" but do not lose sight of the fact that the "team" is a member of a "club."

There are really two choices here, play for the small club that has 1 or 2 teams in an age group or play for the larger club that may have many.  

I for one am in favor of a more YourApeeIn type club structure to which the big clubs could follow.  If they have 3 or 4 teams in an age group, let them move around, up or down.  If the 16th player on the roster on the D1 team didn't get to play in his game then why shouldn't he be able to go down and play in the D2 game?  They need the game time just as much as any other kid in the club pool.  If a player on the D3 team has been playing great then move him up to the D2 team for a week.  That doesn't mean they have to see the field, but it is a reward for putting in the effort and playing well.  

I would encourage the player movement up and down with a caveat - there has to be a limit set on the number of games a kid can play in a given period of time.  I think you could do this by the month instead of the week and say a kid can play a max of 6 games per month in the league.  This would force the club to think about player movement and actually have a strategy regarding player movement.

If you are part of a big club you should want your 25-30 best players getting plenty of game time no matter what the level.  If you are players 31-50 then you have something to work towards in training in order to get more time on the pitch.

If this was how CPP was being used (which is probably within the spirit of the original rule - that and as a way to respond to a depleted roster due to injuries) folks may not have a problem with it. To use it as way to upgrade your roster by bringing in ringers to win a game is a problem.

HeadHaunter wrote:In my humble, unsolicited, opinion - CPP has no impact on these kids that are U11-U13 (can't comment on U14 and above)...  it impacts the parents but really has no impact on the kids accept that they get to play more soccer or at a different level or with different kids...  at this age it matters more to the parents and since they make a big deal out of it, usually in front of their DD, pissing and moaning about the fact that they lost because the other team used CPP, then darling Susy gets all bent outta shape cause "Mommy and Daddy are mad because 'said team' used CPP to bring a D1 player or two - mommy or daddy said we would have won otherwise".  This age group normally doesn't know or care about CPP accept what WE, the parents, tell them about it.  They wanna play soccer.  It's the parents feeling of entitlement or their "money being wasted" because darling Susy's team just got beat by a team they thought they were gonna definitely beat - again, that's the parents likely hyping the game to the kiddos - "you got an easy one this weekend cause you're playing #7 out of a possible 10 teams" (I think that's the example someone used on here for the 04s).  Guess who wouldn't care if it was never mentioned?  The kids, they play soccer cause they enjoy the game, the parents piss and moan cause it's their dollar and by golly, if their DD's team can't or won't utilize a rule that was put in place by the league, then it can't be fair.  However, everyone seems to push to be in LH knowing the CPP is there and likely WILL be used.  So I don't get it - go to another league, play rec, you want in so bad and willing to pay the money until you're the recipient of a loss created by the very rules you pay for.  Talk about a double standard.  My DD plays on a team that has used the CPP and has had the CPP used against it - I like it - I like that it keeps everyone honest.  Nothing is guaranteed and it shouldn't be at this age group.  However, as many have mentioned, it comes down to the almighty dollar, not just from a parents perspective, but also from a coach and club perspective.  You don't win, players move on taking their money with them.  So goes the world of NTX girls youth soccer.  Piss and moan all you want, but when CPP levels the playing field and presses top teams to play better against unsuspecting teams, I don't see anything wrong with that - everyone learns a lesson then.

On a side note, I read through the posts that someone posted above for the 04s... seems TX Spirit Red tied the #1 team this past weekend without using CPP according to a parent from the opposing team (team that was tied for first this past weekend).  So a few weeks back they beat the #1 team by utilizing CPP - begs to question whether the CPP was the actual culprit of their win or not - maybe it would have ended in a tie instead?  Just playing devils advocate here.  And no, my DD has no affiliation with either team or club accept that we all have friends that are associated with some team somehow.  Sounds to me like some folks on that forum were using CPP as an excuse for a loss instead of what it was actually used for which was to level the playing field as it does in almost all uses.  Haven't seen CPP used to sway a blowout loss to a blowout win by anyone in the 02's or 03's has anyone else?

I can see it having an impact even at U-11 and if it doesn't then why use it? Not sure what you mean by it being used to level the playing field? Maybe I overlooked something in your post.

KnKsDad wrote:

bwgophers wrote:

KnKsDad wrote:Can anyone cite examples of CPP's being used to play up in division?

bwgophers wrote:

PrimeTime wrote:
I guess I still am looking for examples of the CPP being used in the other direction, whereby a player plays up vs their normal respective division (i.e. D2 to D1, D1 to ECNL and actually plays not just there to round out the 30 player roster).

3 players from my DD's U14 D1 team (2 Field, 1 GK) CPP'd with a U15 D1/PL team in U15 Premier League games this fall.  The 2 field players played 50% or more in both games played that weekend, 1 win and 1 loss.

Again, my question was same as PrimeTimes, when has CPP been used to play up in division within same age group?

Actually, PT's question neither stated, nor implied that it was limited to within the same age group. If you don't consider my case a valid example of playing "up" (both in age group and in division/level since it was PL games instead of regular D1 LHGCL league games), and therefore, want to discount it, then that is certainly your prerogative.

I was simply answering a question and providing an example. The direct knowledge of CPP cases that I have, suggests (as I think most expect) that the overwhelming majority of CPP cases are those in which players are CPP'd either parallel or down as opposed to up. I have gone on record on this forum stating that LHGCL should have easy access to this data and should analyze it, and from a PR standpoint, it would be great if they made it public. If the data shows that a significant majority of CPP cases (i.e. something like >70%) are playing down, then that says to me that "the spirit of the rule" as written by LHGCL clearly isn't being followed by most, and thus a modification of the CPP in LHGCL needs to be made.

If CPP is truly being used for development, then there should be roughly a 50/50 split between playing up and playing down. With statistical slop, I'll even allow that a 60/40 split would suggest that it is being used primarily for development. However, if it gets above 60% playing down, I find it hard to make any argument that CPP is really being used for development as opposed to competitive advantage.

I knew if anyone was going to give an educated and intellegent answer on this topic it was going to be bw. Well done.

Cmon Sheets. You know educated and intelligent responses have no place here.

I know, what was I thinking. Someone slap me.

Solar Rush (formally Nero), strikes again and uses 3 guest players, (1 ea. Def, mid & foward) from their 02/03 team to hold Sparta to 0-0 tie. They can't compete so they use a Sunday game to stack their team and hold back an honest team, who can compete, from achieving their just reward. How is the best team to win when you never know who you will be playing. This is no better than the Academy days. Technically, you have to be able to beat the best 02-D2/D1 LH teams in order to finish first in LH 03-D3. It appears they will do just about anything to hopelessly try and hold a top 5 position and keep a Solar team in D3. This is tanamont to cheating. No other way to say it. They have no regard for honest, hardworking and deserving teams. The boys classic league has the "club pass" rule correct; only players from same or lower division teams can guess play. I have no respect for clubs that use the rule in this manor. This rule is in serious need of modification, if for no other reason than to maintain integrity in the league. LH, please take control back from these shameless club organizations. See 03 biard

HeadHaunter wrote:In my humble, unsolicited, opinion - CPP has no impact on these kids that are U11-U13 (can't comment on U14 and above)...  it impacts the parents but really has no impact on the kids accept that they get to play more soccer or at a different level or with different kids...  at this age it matters more to the parents and since they make a big deal out of it, usually in front of their DD, pissing and moaning about the fact that they lost because the other team used CPP, then darling Susy gets all bent outta shape cause "Mommy and Daddy are mad because 'said team' used CPP to bring a D1 player or two - mommy or daddy said we would have won otherwise".  This age group normally doesn't know or care about CPP accept what WE, the parents, tell them about it.  They wanna play soccer.  It's the parents feeling of entitlement or their "money being wasted" because darling Susy's team just got beat by a team they thought they were gonna definitely beat - again, that's the parents likely hyping the game to the kiddos - "you got an easy one this weekend cause you're playing #7 out of a possible 10 teams" (I think that's the example someone used on here for the 04s).  Guess who wouldn't care if it was never mentioned?  The kids, they play soccer cause they enjoy the game, the parents piss and moan cause it's their dollar and by golly, if their DD's team can't or won't utilize a rule that was put in place by the league, then it can't be fair.  However, everyone seems to push to be in LH knowing the CPP is there and likely WILL be used.  So I don't get it - go to another league, play rec, you want in so bad and willing to pay the money until you're the recipient of a loss created by the very rules you pay for.  Talk about a double standard.  My DD plays on a team that has used the CPP and has had the CPP used against it - I like it - I like that it keeps everyone honest.  Nothing is guaranteed and it shouldn't be at this age group.  However, as many have mentioned, it comes down to the almighty dollar, not just from a parents perspective, but also from a coach and club perspective.  You don't win, players move on taking their money with them.  So goes the world of NTX girls youth soccer.  Piss and moan all you want, but when CPP levels the playing field and presses top teams to play better against unsuspecting teams, I don't see anything wrong with that - everyone learns a lesson then.

On a side note, I read through the posts that someone posted above for the 04s... seems TX Spirit Red tied the #1 team this past weekend without using CPP according to a parent from the opposing team (team that was tied for first this past weekend).  So a few weeks back they beat the #1 team by utilizing CPP - begs to question whether the CPP was the actual culprit of their win or not - maybe it would have ended in a tie instead?  Just playing devils advocate here.  And no, my DD has no affiliation with either team or club accept that we all have friends that are associated with some team somehow.  Sounds to me like some folks on that forum were using CPP as an excuse for a loss instead of what it was actually used for which was to level the playing field as it does in almost all uses.  Haven't seen CPP used to sway a blowout loss to a blowout win by anyone in the 02's or 03's has anyone else?

I am going to quote you on CPP. " I like how it keeps everyone honest". Do you honestly believe that?

KnKsDad wrote:Can anyone cite examples of CPP's being used to play up in division?

2 players from my DDs D2 team were recently used to play up on a D1 team who had injuries. So it does happen.

Cleansheets wrote:

HeadHaunter wrote:In my humble, unsolicited, opinion - CPP has no impact on these kids that are U11-U13 (can't comment on U14 and above)...  it impacts the parents but really has no impact on the kids accept that they get to play more soccer or at a different level or with different kids...  at this age it matters more to the parents and since they make a big deal out of it, usually in front of their DD, pissing and moaning about the fact that they lost because the other team used CPP, then darling Susy gets all bent outta shape cause "Mommy and Daddy are mad because 'said team' used CPP to bring a D1 player or two - mommy or daddy said we would have won otherwise".  This age group normally doesn't know or care about CPP accept what WE, the parents, tell them about it.  They wanna play soccer.  It's the parents feeling of entitlement or their "money being wasted" because darling Susy's team just got beat by a team they thought they were gonna definitely beat - again, that's the parents likely hyping the game to the kiddos - "you got an easy one this weekend cause you're playing #7 out of a possible 10 teams" (I think that's the example someone used on here for the 04s).  Guess who wouldn't care if it was never mentioned?  The kids, they play soccer cause they enjoy the game, the parents piss and moan cause it's their dollar and by golly, if their DD's team can't or won't utilize a rule that was put in place by the league, then it can't be fair.  However, everyone seems to push to be in LH knowing the CPP is there and likely WILL be used.  So I don't get it - go to another league, play rec, you want in so bad and willing to pay the money until you're the recipient of a loss created by the very rules you pay for.  Talk about a double standard.  My DD plays on a team that has used the CPP and has had the CPP used against it - I like it - I like that it keeps everyone honest.  Nothing is guaranteed and it shouldn't be at this age group.  However, as many have mentioned, it comes down to the almighty dollar, not just from a parents perspective, but also from a coach and club perspective.  You don't win, players move on taking their money with them.  So goes the world of NTX girls youth soccer.  Piss and moan all you want, but when CPP levels the playing field and presses top teams to play better against unsuspecting teams, I don't see anything wrong with that - everyone learns a lesson then.

On a side note, I read through the posts that someone posted above for the 04s... seems TX Spirit Red tied the #1 team this past weekend without using CPP according to a parent from the opposing team (team that was tied for first this past weekend).  So a few weeks back they beat the #1 team by utilizing CPP - begs to question whether the CPP was the actual culprit of their win or not - maybe it would have ended in a tie instead?  Just playing devils advocate here.  And no, my DD has no affiliation with either team or club accept that we all have friends that are associated with some team somehow.  Sounds to me like some folks on that forum were using CPP as an excuse for a loss instead of what it was actually used for which was to level the playing field as it does in almost all uses.  Haven't seen CPP used to sway a blowout loss to a blowout win by anyone in the 02's or 03's has anyone else?

I am going to quote you on CPP.  " I like how it keeps everyone honest".  Do you honestly believe that?

It's all about perspective - at 10-13 years old, does it really matter that much?  At 14, yes, then it's time to settle the rules a little and worry about whether it's a "development" thing or a "win at all costs" thing...  but to imply that kids between the ages of 10-13 don't benefit in some way from playing with different kids in different positions (regardless of division) is not seeing the whole picture... I get that it will, at times, appear like teams are boasting their lineups for a favorable matchup, but again, not sure the issue at this age group.  When ECNL kicks in and colleges are looking at teams and players, then yeah, it should definitely be regulated.  But as much as this is a "team" sport, most of these kids and parents won't be thinking about their "team" when colleges come knocking - it becomes about individual development and that is gained by more touches, more games and more experience which can be offered from club player pass.  Again, I'm not going to change anyone's mind here but I see the good, the bad and ugly in player pass but I see all sides and I choose to enjoy it for the growth my DD who is getting experience from playing in several game speed atmospheres - don't care how the coach is using it and don't care what the parents on the opposing team think of it's use, only care that my DD is getting the touches, experience and diversity of play that is offered by it's use.

HeadHaunter wrote:

Cleansheets wrote:

HeadHaunter wrote:In my humble, unsolicited, opinion - CPP has no impact on these kids that are U11-U13 (can't comment on U14 and above)...  it impacts the parents but really has no impact on the kids accept that they get to play more soccer or at a different level or with different kids...  at this age it matters more to the parents and since they make a big deal out of it, usually in front of their DD, pissing and moaning about the fact that they lost because the other team used CPP, then darling Susy gets all bent outta shape cause "Mommy and Daddy are mad because 'said team' used CPP to bring a D1 player or two - mommy or daddy said we would have won otherwise".  This age group normally doesn't know or care about CPP accept what WE, the parents, tell them about it.  They wanna play soccer.  It's the parents feeling of entitlement or their "money being wasted" because darling Susy's team just got beat by a team they thought they were gonna definitely beat - again, that's the parents likely hyping the game to the kiddos - "you got an easy one this weekend cause you're playing #7 out of a possible 10 teams" (I think that's the example someone used on here for the 04s).  Guess who wouldn't care if it was never mentioned?  The kids, they play soccer cause they enjoy the game, the parents piss and moan cause it's their dollar and by golly, if their DD's team can't or won't utilize a rule that was put in place by the league, then it can't be fair.  However, everyone seems to push to be in LH knowing the CPP is there and likely WILL be used.  So I don't get it - go to another league, play rec, you want in so bad and willing to pay the money until you're the recipient of a loss created by the very rules you pay for.  Talk about a double standard.  My DD plays on a team that has used the CPP and has had the CPP used against it - I like it - I like that it keeps everyone honest.  Nothing is guaranteed and it shouldn't be at this age group.  However, as many have mentioned, it comes down to the almighty dollar, not just from a parents perspective, but also from a coach and club perspective.  You don't win, players move on taking their money with them.  So goes the world of NTX girls youth soccer.  Piss and moan all you want, but when CPP levels the playing field and presses top teams to play better against unsuspecting teams, I don't see anything wrong with that - everyone learns a lesson then.

On a side note, I read through the posts that someone posted above for the 04s... seems TX Spirit Red tied the #1 team this past weekend without using CPP according to a parent from the opposing team (team that was tied for first this past weekend).  So a few weeks back they beat the #1 team by utilizing CPP - begs to question whether the CPP was the actual culprit of their win or not - maybe it would have ended in a tie instead?  Just playing devils advocate here.  And no, my DD has no affiliation with either team or club accept that we all have friends that are associated with some team somehow.  Sounds to me like some folks on that forum were using CPP as an excuse for a loss instead of what it was actually used for which was to level the playing field as it does in almost all uses.  Haven't seen CPP used to sway a blowout loss to a blowout win by anyone in the 02's or 03's has anyone else?

I am going to quote you on CPP.  " I like how it keeps everyone honest".  Do you honestly believe that?

It's all about perspective - at 10-13 years old, does it really matter that much?  At 14, yes, then it's time to settle the rules a little and worry about whether it's a "development" thing or a "win at all costs" thing...  but to imply that kids between the ages of 10-13 don't benefit in some way from playing with different kids in different positions (regardless of division) is not seeing the whole picture... I get that it will, at times, appear like teams are boasting their lineups for a favorable matchup, but again, not sure the issue at this age group.  When ECNL kicks in and colleges are looking at teams and players, then yeah, it should definitely be regulated.  But as much as this is a "team" sport, most of these kids and parents won't be thinking about their "team" when colleges come knocking - it becomes about individual development and that is gained by more touches, more games and more experience which can be offered from club player pass.  Again, I'm not going to change anyone's mind here but I see the good, the bad and ugly in player pass but I see all sides and I choose to enjoy it for the growth my DD who is getting experience from playing in several game speed atmospheres - don't care how the coach is using it and don't care what the parents on the opposing team think of it's use, only care that my DD is getting the touches, experience and diversity of play that is offered by it's use.

Wait a minute... are you trying to imply that there is a bigger picture, and in the scope of that bigger picture, CPP is a good thing, and if you look at things from the bigger picture standpoint, you are much less likely to get upset over things like CPP???

Heresy! (or, just perhaps, a novel concept )

bwgophers wrote:

HeadHaunter wrote:

Cleansheets wrote:

HeadHaunter wrote:In my humble, unsolicited, opinion - CPP has no impact on these kids that are U11-U13 (can't comment on U14 and above)...  it impacts the parents but really has no impact on the kids accept that they get to play more soccer or at a different level or with different kids...  at this age it matters more to the parents and since they make a big deal out of it, usually in front of their DD, pissing and moaning about the fact that they lost because the other team used CPP, then darling Susy gets all bent outta shape cause "Mommy and Daddy are mad because 'said team' used CPP to bring a D1 player or two - mommy or daddy said we would have won otherwise".  This age group normally doesn't know or care about CPP accept what WE, the parents, tell them about it.  They wanna play soccer.  It's the parents feeling of entitlement or their "money being wasted" because darling Susy's team just got beat by a team they thought they were gonna definitely beat - again, that's the parents likely hyping the game to the kiddos - "you got an easy one this weekend cause you're playing #7 out of a possible 10 teams" (I think that's the example someone used on here for the 04s).  Guess who wouldn't care if it was never mentioned?  The kids, they play soccer cause they enjoy the game, the parents piss and moan cause it's their dollar and by golly, if their DD's team can't or won't utilize a rule that was put in place by the league, then it can't be fair.  However, everyone seems to push to be in LH knowing the CPP is there and likely WILL be used.  So I don't get it - go to another league, play rec, you want in so bad and willing to pay the money until you're the recipient of a loss created by the very rules you pay for.  Talk about a double standard.  My DD plays on a team that has used the CPP and has had the CPP used against it - I like it - I like that it keeps everyone honest.  Nothing is guaranteed and it shouldn't be at this age group.  However, as many have mentioned, it comes down to the almighty dollar, not just from a parents perspective, but also from a coach and club perspective.  You don't win, players move on taking their money with them.  So goes the world of NTX girls youth soccer.  Piss and moan all you want, but when CPP levels the playing field and presses top teams to play better against unsuspecting teams, I don't see anything wrong with that - everyone learns a lesson then.

On a side note, I read through the posts that someone posted above for the 04s... seems TX Spirit Red tied the #1 team this past weekend without using CPP according to a parent from the opposing team (team that was tied for first this past weekend).  So a few weeks back they beat the #1 team by utilizing CPP - begs to question whether the CPP was the actual culprit of their win or not - maybe it would have ended in a tie instead?  Just playing devils advocate here.  And no, my DD has no affiliation with either team or club accept that we all have friends that are associated with some team somehow.  Sounds to me like some folks on that forum were using CPP as an excuse for a loss instead of what it was actually used for which was to level the playing field as it does in almost all uses.  Haven't seen CPP used to sway a blowout loss to a blowout win by anyone in the 02's or 03's has anyone else?

I am going to quote you on CPP.  " I like how it keeps everyone honest".  Do you honestly believe that?

It's all about perspective - at 10-13 years old, does it really matter that much?  At 14, yes, then it's time to settle the rules a little and worry about whether it's a "development" thing or a "win at all costs" thing...  but to imply that kids between the ages of 10-13 don't benefit in some way from playing with different kids in different positions (regardless of division) is not seeing the whole picture... I get that it will, at times, appear like teams are boasting their lineups for a favorable matchup, but again, not sure the issue at this age group.  When ECNL kicks in and colleges are looking at teams and players, then yeah, it should definitely be regulated.  But as much as this is a "team" sport, most of these kids and parents won't be thinking about their "team" when colleges come knocking - it becomes about individual development and that is gained by more touches, more games and more experience which can be offered from club player pass.  Again, I'm not going to change anyone's mind here but I see the good, the bad and ugly in player pass but I see all sides and I choose to enjoy it for the growth my DD who is getting experience from playing in several game speed atmospheres - don't care how the coach is using it and don't care what the parents on the opposing team think of it's use, only care that my DD is getting the touches, experience and diversity of play that is offered by it's use.

Wait a minute...  are you trying to imply that there is a bigger picture, and in the scope of that bigger picture, CPP is a good thing, and if you look at things from the bigger picture standpoint, you are much less likely to get upset over things like CPP???  

Heresy! (or, just perhaps, a novel concept )

I would never imply such a thing... 

HeadHaunter wrote:

Cleansheets wrote:

HeadHaunter wrote:In my humble, unsolicited, opinion - CPP has no impact on these kids that are U11-U13 (can't comment on U14 and above)...  it impacts the parents but really has no impact on the kids accept that they get to play more soccer or at a different level or with different kids...  at this age it matters more to the parents and since they make a big deal out of it, usually in front of their DD, pissing and moaning about the fact that they lost because the other team used CPP, then darling Susy gets all bent outta shape cause "Mommy and Daddy are mad because 'said team' used CPP to bring a D1 player or two - mommy or daddy said we would have won otherwise".  This age group normally doesn't know or care about CPP accept what WE, the parents, tell them about it.  They wanna play soccer.  It's the parents feeling of entitlement or their "money being wasted" because darling Susy's team just got beat by a team they thought they were gonna definitely beat - again, that's the parents likely hyping the game to the kiddos - "you got an easy one this weekend cause you're playing #7 out of a possible 10 teams" (I think that's the example someone used on here for the 04s).  Guess who wouldn't care if it was never mentioned?  The kids, they play soccer cause they enjoy the game, the parents piss and moan cause it's their dollar and by golly, if their DD's team can't or won't utilize a rule that was put in place by the league, then it can't be fair.  However, everyone seems to push to be in LH knowing the CPP is there and likely WILL be used.  So I don't get it - go to another league, play rec, you want in so bad and willing to pay the money until you're the recipient of a loss created by the very rules you pay for.  Talk about a double standard.  My DD plays on a team that has used the CPP and has had the CPP used against it - I like it - I like that it keeps everyone honest.  Nothing is guaranteed and it shouldn't be at this age group.  However, as many have mentioned, it comes down to the almighty dollar, not just from a parents perspective, but also from a coach and club perspective.  You don't win, players move on taking their money with them.  So goes the world of NTX girls youth soccer.  Piss and moan all you want, but when CPP levels the playing field and presses top teams to play better against unsuspecting teams, I don't see anything wrong with that - everyone learns a lesson then.

On a side note, I read through the posts that someone posted above for the 04s... seems TX Spirit Red tied the #1 team this past weekend without using CPP according to a parent from the opposing team (team that was tied for first this past weekend).  So a few weeks back they beat the #1 team by utilizing CPP - begs to question whether the CPP was the actual culprit of their win or not - maybe it would have ended in a tie instead?  Just playing devils advocate here.  And no, my DD has no affiliation with either team or club accept that we all have friends that are associated with some team somehow.  Sounds to me like some folks on that forum were using CPP as an excuse for a loss instead of what it was actually used for which was to level the playing field as it does in almost all uses.  Haven't seen CPP used to sway a blowout loss to a blowout win by anyone in the 02's or 03's has anyone else?

I am going to quote you on CPP.  " I like how it keeps everyone honest".  Do you honestly believe that?

It's all about perspective - at 10-13 years old, does it really matter that much?  At 14, yes, then it's time to settle the rules a little and worry about whether it's a "development" thing or a "win at all costs" thing...  but to imply that kids between the ages of 10-13 don't benefit in some way from playing with different kids in different positions (regardless of division) is not seeing the whole picture... I get that it will, at times, appear like teams are boasting their lineups for a favorable matchup, but again, not sure the issue at this age group.  When ECNL kicks in and colleges are looking at teams and players, then yeah, it should definitely be regulated.  But as much as this is a "team" sport, most of these kids and parents won't be thinking about their "team" when colleges come knocking - it becomes about individual development and that is gained by more touches, more games and more experience which can be offered from club player pass.  Again, I'm not going to change anyone's mind here but I see the good, the bad and ugly in player pass but I see all sides and I choose to enjoy it for the growth my DD who is getting experience from playing in several game speed atmospheres - don't care how the coach is using it and don't care what the parents on the opposing team think of it's use, only care that my DD is getting the touches, experience and diversity of play that is offered by it's use.

HeadHaunter wrote:

Cleansheets wrote:

HeadHaunter wrote:In my humble, unsolicited, opinion - CPP has no impact on these kids that are U11-U13 (can't comment on U14 and above)...  it impacts the parents but really has no impact on the kids accept that they get to play more soccer or at a different level or with different kids...  at this age it matters more to the parents and since they make a big deal out of it, usually in front of their DD, pissing and moaning about the fact that they lost because the other team used CPP, then darling Susy gets all bent outta shape cause "Mommy and Daddy are mad because 'said team' used CPP to bring a D1 player or two - mommy or daddy said we would have won otherwise".  This age group normally doesn't know or care about CPP accept what WE, the parents, tell them about it.  They wanna play soccer.  It's the parents feeling of entitlement or their "money being wasted" because darling Susy's team just got beat by a team they thought they were gonna definitely beat - again, that's the parents likely hyping the game to the kiddos - "you got an easy one this weekend cause you're playing #7 out of a possible 10 teams" (I think that's the example someone used on here for the 04s).  Guess who wouldn't care if it was never mentioned?  The kids, they play soccer cause they enjoy the game, the parents piss and moan cause it's their dollar and by golly, if their DD's team can't or won't utilize a rule that was put in place by the league, then it can't be fair.  However, everyone seems to push to be in LH knowing the CPP is there and likely WILL be used.  So I don't get it - go to another league, play rec, you want in so bad and willing to pay the money until you're the recipient of a loss created by the very rules you pay for.  Talk about a double standard.  My DD plays on a team that has used the CPP and has had the CPP used against it - I like it - I like that it keeps everyone honest.  Nothing is guaranteed and it shouldn't be at this age group.  However, as many have mentioned, it comes down to the almighty dollar, not just from a parents perspective, but also from a coach and club perspective.  You don't win, players move on taking their money with them.  So goes the world of NTX girls youth soccer.  Piss and moan all you want, but when CPP levels the playing field and presses top teams to play better against unsuspecting teams, I don't see anything wrong with that - everyone learns a lesson then.

On a side note, I read through the posts that someone posted above for the 04s... seems TX Spirit Red tied the #1 team this past weekend without using CPP according to a parent from the opposing team (team that was tied for first this past weekend).  So a few weeks back they beat the #1 team by utilizing CPP - begs to question whether the CPP was the actual culprit of their win or not - maybe it would have ended in a tie instead?  Just playing devils advocate here.  And no, my DD has no affiliation with either team or club accept that we all have friends that are associated with some team somehow.  Sounds to me like some folks on that forum were using CPP as an excuse for a loss instead of what it was actually used for which was to level the playing field as it does in almost all uses.  Haven't seen CPP used to sway a blowout loss to a blowout win by anyone in the 02's or 03's has anyone else?

I am going to quote you on CPP.  " I like how it keeps everyone honest".  Do you honestly believe that?

It's all about perspective - at 10-13 years old, does it really matter that much?  At 14, yes, then it's time to settle the rules a little and worry about whether it's a "development" thing or a "win at all costs" thing...  but to imply that kids between the ages of 10-13 don't benefit in some way from playing with different kids in different positions (regardless of division) is not seeing the whole picture... I get that it will, at times, appear like teams are boasting their lineups for a favorable matchup, but again, not sure the issue at this age group.  When ECNL kicks in and colleges are looking at teams and players, then yeah, it should definitely be regulated.  But as much as this is a "team" sport, most of these kids and parents won't be thinking about their "team" when colleges come knocking - it becomes about individual development and that is gained by more touches, more games and more experience which can be offered from club player pass.  Again, I'm not going to change anyone's mind here but I see the good, the bad and ugly in player pass but I see all sides and I choose to enjoy it for the growth my DD who is getting experience from playing in several game speed atmospheres - don't care how the coach is using it and don't care what the parents on the opposing team think of it's use, only care that my DD is getting the touches, experience and diversity of play that is offered by it's use.

HH, are you truly "seeing it from all sides?" It seems to me you are looking at the CPP through rose-colored glasses because it is affecting your DD in a positive way. I wonder if you would be singing the same tune if it was your DD sitting the bench while some stud took up her playing time that she worked so hard for? I can only assume based on your posts that your DD is a top player and that she would never be in danger of having her playing time compromised, and that you don't mind if she gets to play down a level or two so she can really showcase her talent against lesser competition.

soccernovice04 wrote:

HeadHaunter wrote:

Cleansheets wrote:

HeadHaunter wrote:In my humble, unsolicited, opinion - CPP has no impact on these kids that are U11-U13 (can't comment on U14 and above)...  it impacts the parents but really has no impact on the kids accept that they get to play more soccer or at a different level or with different kids...  at this age it matters more to the parents and since they make a big deal out of it, usually in front of their DD, pissing and moaning about the fact that they lost because the other team used CPP, then darling Susy gets all bent outta shape cause "Mommy and Daddy are mad because 'said team' used CPP to bring a D1 player or two - mommy or daddy said we would have won otherwise".  This age group normally doesn't know or care about CPP accept what WE, the parents, tell them about it.  They wanna play soccer.  It's the parents feeling of entitlement or their "money being wasted" because darling Susy's team just got beat by a team they thought they were gonna definitely beat - again, that's the parents likely hyping the game to the kiddos - "you got an easy one this weekend cause you're playing #7 out of a possible 10 teams" (I think that's the example someone used on here for the 04s).  Guess who wouldn't care if it was never mentioned?  The kids, they play soccer cause they enjoy the game, the parents piss and moan cause it's their dollar and by golly, if their DD's team can't or won't utilize a rule that was put in place by the league, then it can't be fair.  However, everyone seems to push to be in LH knowing the CPP is there and likely WILL be used.  So I don't get it - go to another league, play rec, you want in so bad and willing to pay the money until you're the recipient of a loss created by the very rules you pay for.  Talk about a double standard.  My DD plays on a team that has used the CPP and has had the CPP used against it - I like it - I like that it keeps everyone honest.  Nothing is guaranteed and it shouldn't be at this age group.  However, as many have mentioned, it comes down to the almighty dollar, not just from a parents perspective, but also from a coach and club perspective.  You don't win, players move on taking their money with them.  So goes the world of NTX girls youth soccer.  Piss and moan all you want, but when CPP levels the playing field and presses top teams to play better against unsuspecting teams, I don't see anything wrong with that - everyone learns a lesson then.

On a side note, I read through the posts that someone posted above for the 04s... seems TX Spirit Red tied the #1 team this past weekend without using CPP according to a parent from the opposing team (team that was tied for first this past weekend).  So a few weeks back they beat the #1 team by utilizing CPP - begs to question whether the CPP was the actual culprit of their win or not - maybe it would have ended in a tie instead?  Just playing devils advocate here.  And no, my DD has no affiliation with either team or club accept that we all have friends that are associated with some team somehow.  Sounds to me like some folks on that forum were using CPP as an excuse for a loss instead of what it was actually used for which was to level the playing field as it does in almost all uses.  Haven't seen CPP used to sway a blowout loss to a blowout win by anyone in the 02's or 03's has anyone else?

I am going to quote you on CPP.  " I like how it keeps everyone honest".  Do you honestly believe that?

It's all about perspective - at 10-13 years old, does it really matter that much?  At 14, yes, then it's time to settle the rules a little and worry about whether it's a "development" thing or a "win at all costs" thing...  but to imply that kids between the ages of 10-13 don't benefit in some way from playing with different kids in different positions (regardless of division) is not seeing the whole picture... I get that it will, at times, appear like teams are boasting their lineups for a favorable matchup, but again, not sure the issue at this age group.  When ECNL kicks in and colleges are looking at teams and players, then yeah, it should definitely be regulated.  But as much as this is a "team" sport, most of these kids and parents won't be thinking about their "team" when colleges come knocking - it becomes about individual development and that is gained by more touches, more games and more experience which can be offered from club player pass.  Again, I'm not going to change anyone's mind here but I see the good, the bad and ugly in player pass but I see all sides and I choose to enjoy it for the growth my DD who is getting experience from playing in several game speed atmospheres - don't care how the coach is using it and don't care what the parents on the opposing team think of it's use, only care that my DD is getting the touches, experience and diversity of play that is offered by it's use.

HH, are you truly "seeing it from all sides?" It seems to me you are looking at the CPP through rose-colored glasses because it is affecting your DD in a positive way. I wonder if you would be singing the same tune if it was your DD sitting the bench while some stud took up her playing time that she worked so hard for? I can only assume based on your posts that your DD is a top player and that she would never be in danger of having her playing time compromised, and that you don't mind if she gets to play down a level or two so she can really showcase her talent against lesser competition.

If your coach isn't playing the players in both directions so players DON'T lose playing time, then I do sympathize but our coach utilizes it to move players in both directions so no one sits a game here or there.  The player has 9 games and plays 9 games whether it be in DIII, DII or DI.  If someone plays down, the player sitting that game plays up (or has played up already) so it's an even swap and no missing playing time unless they lay a big egg and don't play to potential, then they may end up riding the pine a little longer than expected.  I do accept that as the UGLY part of the CPP - when coach benches a player in favor of a CPP player without the expectation of making up that playing time in another game or on another team within the club.  In that case, yes, I'd be upset but our coach and club don't seem to run that way at least from the U11-U13 age groups, what happens at U14 and above I can't tell you cause we're not there yet so it may be happening there.

lets see how many of my points were correct in the solar nero game....correct points marked in bold..


1. it gives an unfair advantage to big clubs
2. it violates the spirit of the game
3. it is unfair to money paying parents and kids who paid for their kids to play
4. it undermines morale on a team, go to practice work hard, and when there's an opportunity? sit on the bench so a star player from another team can fill that role?
5. teams should play with whoever they have available
6. with teams putting together 18 man rosters the need for a player pass player is remote
7. it is abused in relegation games, this is rampant on the boys sides

8. finally, and most importantly, it's not good for the kids and that's what this is all about..

a perfect storm of the corruptness of CPP played out before our eyes...

My dd has never seen the effects of cpp good or bad.  I also agree with 7wolf, if it's in the rules and you use it, you aren't cheating.  The problem in my mind is when I sign a contract for my kid to play on a team, as does everyone else, it should be that team.  When a team has to earn their respective spot in whatever division they play, going forward it should be that teams spot until contract time, then change it however you want, but the kids and parents have options to change teams also.  To keep a spot by using other players in the middle of the season to avoid relegation, bastardizes the whole thing.  I don't understand logically how someone can't see this.  If this is happening....Why Qualify, have different divisions, leagues or whatever, it all becomes meaningless anyway.  I get if a team needs players occassionally, but if this is the result it's not worth it.  Another argument is why have it period.  Play with 11 if that's all you have that week, so what, it's just for development anyway. Right?

soccerjack wrote:My dd has never seen the effects of cpp good or bad.  I also agree with 7wolf, if it's in the rules and you use it, you aren't cheating.  The problem in my mind is when I sign a contract for my kid to play on a team, as does everyone else, it should be that team.  When a team has to earn the respective spot in whatever division they play, going forward it should be that teams spot until contract time, then change it however you want, but the kids and parents have options to change teams also.  To keep a spot by using other players in the middle of the season to avoid relegation, bastardizes the whole thing.  I don't understand logically how someone can't see this.  If this is happening....Why Qualify, have different divisions, leagues or whatever, it's all becomes meaningless anyway.  I get if a team needs players occassionally, but if this is the result it's not worth it.  Another argument is why have it period.  Play with 11 if thats all you have that week, so what, it's just for development anyway.

This is why signing contracts at U11 is stupid to begin with...  I remember the days contracts didn't come till U14, then U13...  wonder how long it will take till U10 is relegated to signing contracts...  So it's a double edged sword - use CPP while under contract and relegate the entire thing back to an Academy mindset only with a Select price tag or stay out of Club a couple more years and allow for development of players openly at a lower price tag...  such a conundrum we've created in NTX soccer.

Let me quote you again HH. "If your coach isn't playing players in both directions so players don't lose playing time..." Are you serious!?! That is the most ridiculous thing I have read on here in a long time. Please tell me how it would benefit a top player by bringing them down to play on a lower level team?

Cleansheets wrote:Let me quote you again HH. "If your coach isn't playing players in both directions so players don't lose playing time..." Are you serious!?! That is the most ridiculous thing I have read on here in a long time. Please tell me how it would benefit a top player by bringing them down to play on a lower level team?

Because they are 11 and 12 years old... period...  they are kids and are learning and if you think any differently then you ARE one of those parents that think learning and development stops at 10 because if you're not first you're last...  sheesh...

My question is: are you serious!?!  do you really think a top player is done learning or developing or learning to play with kids of different levels?  Do you not think a kid could still learn and develop by playing with a group of girls she's not played with much or ever for that matter?  learning to adapt?  just cause she's a top player does not mean she is a God of soccer - just means there are things they do better than others...  maybe she needs work on passing, or sharing the ball or playing a different position, or learning new players or just learning period.  What can a 10, 11 or 12 year old learn from playing more soccer?  Seriously!?!  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not going to change your mind on the use of CPP - all I know is that my DD is benefiting from it - don't care if yours isn't or won't or the coach isn't going to let it happen - my DD is benefiting, if yours was too, I'd give you the ol' thumbs up and wouldn't ridicule you because she is.  I could care less if a player from DI played in a DIII PPL game if they thought it would give her more touches on the ball regardless of the people she's playing...  I'll put her in a damn rec game if someone asked her to play cause she loves to play and it's game speed touches regardless of the level of the competition.  She'll get all the competition she needs playing at her own level, why not let her be the star player once in awhile and use those skills she otherwise wouldn't have time to use in another format - allow her to hone those skills a little...  I got not problem with that and surprised that you do....

Been watching this forum for over 5 years and that has to be the all time winner in the self centered,( yeah for me and screw everybody else) post.Well done there has been some stiff competition.

I'll second that.

HeadHaunter wrote:

Cleansheets wrote:Let me quote you again HH. "If your coach isn't playing players in both directions so players don't lose playing time..." Are you serious!?! That is the most ridiculous thing I have read on here in a long time. Please tell me how it would benefit a top player by bringing them down to play on a lower level team?

Because they are 11 and 12 years old... period...  they are kids and are learning and if you think any differently then you ARE one of those parents that think learning and development stops at 10 because if you're not first you're last...  sheesh...

My question is: are you serious!?!  do you really think a top player is done learning or developing or learning to play with kids of different levels?  Do you not think a kid could still learn and develop by playing with a group of girls she's not played with much or ever for that matter?  learning to adapt?  just cause she's a top player does not mean she is a God of soccer - just means there are things they do better than others...  maybe she needs work on passing, or sharing the ball or playing a different position, or learning new players or just learning period.  What can a 10, 11 or 12 year old learn from playing more soccer?  Seriously!?!  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not going to change your mind on the use of CPP - all I know is that my DD is benefiting from it - don't care if yours isn't or won't or the coach isn't going to let it happen - my DD is benefiting, if yours was too, I'd give you the ol' thumbs up and wouldn't ridicule you because she is.  I could care less if a player from DI played in a DIII PPL game if they thought it would give her more touches on the ball regardless of the people she's playing...  I'll put her in a damn rec game if someone asked her to play cause she loves to play and it's game speed touches regardless of the level of the competition.  She'll get all the competition she needs playing at her own level, why not let her be the star player once in awhile and use those skills she otherwise wouldn't have time to use in another format - allow her to hone those skills a little...  I got not problem with that and surprised that you do....

Where are you Cobra Kai? If Johnny won't get up there and sweep the leg anymore, I think we've found someone that will!