05 JDL

ForReal wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

slrsoccer wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

Would you rather have your daughter:
1)  Play in Classic League, win the league with an 18-1 record with 75 GF and 8 GA
2)  Play in JDL, come in last place with a record of 3-12 (not sure how many games they play) with 13 GF and 29 GA

In your opinion, and all other things being equal (practices, coaching), which one do you think is better for developing a soccer player?

Neither of these situations lend credibility to what you are arguing.  The first would have you believe you are not getting the top quality competition you need to develop and that in some regards may be true.  
The second would have you believe that they are playing too far up and that they do not have the skill that would make them able to compete with the top competition.  
If you say the JDL is as good as it is then the records would all be more similar.  You know the top teams would not always come out on top.  Proving that the teams are all in fact top teams competing in a competitive manner.  From what i see there are two top teams and a few middle teams and then a couple bottom teams.  That is essentially what LH is except in a larger form.  Which will change next year to a 9 or 10 team format.

I don't agree.  That is why I put goal differential into the equation.  Maybe I should have asked it another way.  Would you rather be 18-1 with an average score of 4-1 or be 3-12, losing by an average score of 2-1?  I don't consider this playing too far up.

There is always going to be some disparity in youth sports.  At this age, 1 or 2 great players can make a huge difference.  That is not the case as they get older.  My point being is that most leagues will have a team or two at the top and a team or two at the bottom.  It is the gap between the top and bottom that make for a competitive or non competitive situation.  There will always be outlier scores, we see it all the time.

The part in bold is what my entire stance is about.  The more teams, the bigger the disparity, the more "blowout" games.  Less teams, less disparity (some will still exist), less "blowout" games.

Like you said there will always be disparity is sports.  Goal differential will only get you so far in a argument.  I agree it should be taken into consideration.  And yes the more teams you have the bigger disparity there should be.  JDL is at a disadvantage just like everyone because of age pure shuffle.  It will take a year to settle down the dust.  LH is a 20 team league that will dwindle down to 10.  Top 10 tens teams in LH now would still have disparity to say the least, but it would be tons better.  If the JDL clubs were to all add a team next year then it would end up in the same situation.  Too many teams to give quality competition to all and the disparity between the teams would grow.  What would LH look like right now if it was just the top 8 teams in D1.  Way better competition to watch than JDL right now I assure you.

You had me until the end.  I know you are a Trump lover but you don't have to start talking like him.  

JDL is in its infancy.  It will likely be refined going forward and I expect you will see more teams at the U11 and U12 (perhaps U13) level playing both JDL and LH next year.  JDL has had too few games (5-6) and it's human nature to want to win them.  JDL would also have more of the developmental aspects questioned by SoS if teams used LH for winning/competition and JDL for "developing."  But it also takes a culture that doesn't yet exist - coaches, players and parents willing to commit to playing without a win at all costs mentality.    

But as to your hypothetical, you lost any credibility. If LH was just the top 8 right now versus JDL's 8, LH would not be better competition.  SoS also points out that's not the case with the 03s or even in the 04s right now.  But just look at the teams.  There are two Sting teams and two Solar teams in the top 8 of LH.  Essentially you are arguing that Sting and Solar didn't put their two best teams in and that Solar Byars, Solar Haylock, Sting West and Sting East provide better competition than Solar Pulpaneck, Solar Colvin, Sting Higgy and Sting Parsons.  If you're of that opinion, I can't persuade you of the fallacy of your position.

KeeperCommander wrote:

ForReal wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

slrsoccer wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

Would you rather have your daughter:
1)  Play in Classic League, win the league with an 18-1 record with 75 GF and 8 GA
2)  Play in JDL, come in last place with a record of 3-12 (not sure how many games they play) with 13 GF and 29 GA

In your opinion, and all other things being equal (practices, coaching), which one do you think is better for developing a soccer player?

Neither of these situations lend credibility to what you are arguing.  The first would have you believe you are not getting the top quality competition you need to develop and that in some regards may be true.  
The second would have you believe that they are playing too far up and that they do not have the skill that would make them able to compete with the top competition.  
If you say the JDL is as good as it is then the records would all be more similar.  You know the top teams would not always come out on top.  Proving that the teams are all in fact top teams competing in a competitive manner.  From what i see there are two top teams and a few middle teams and then a couple bottom teams.  That is essentially what LH is except in a larger form.  Which will change next year to a 9 or 10 team format.

I don't agree.  That is why I put goal differential into the equation.  Maybe I should have asked it another way.  Would you rather be 18-1 with an average score of 4-1 or be 3-12, losing by an average score of 2-1?  I don't consider this playing too far up.

There is always going to be some disparity in youth sports.  At this age, 1 or 2 great players can make a huge difference.  That is not the case as they get older.  My point being is that most leagues will have a team or two at the top and a team or two at the bottom.  It is the gap between the top and bottom that make for a competitive or non competitive situation.  There will always be outlier scores, we see it all the time.

The part in bold is what my entire stance is about.  The more teams, the bigger the disparity, the more "blowout" games.  Less teams, less disparity (some will still exist), less "blowout" games.

Like you said there will always be disparity is sports.  Goal differential will only get you so far in a argument.  I agree it should be taken into consideration.  And yes the more teams you have the bigger disparity there should be.  JDL is at a disadvantage just like everyone because of age pure shuffle.  It will take a year to settle down the dust.  LH is a 20 team league that will dwindle down to 10.  Top 10 tens teams in LH now would still have disparity to say the least, but it would be tons better.  If the JDL clubs were to all add a team next year then it would end up in the same situation.  Too many teams to give quality competition to all and the disparity between the teams would grow.  What would LH look like right now if it was just the top 8 teams in D1.  Way better competition to watch than JDL right now I assure you.

You had me until the end.  I know you are a Trump lover but you don't have to start talking like him.  

JDL is in its infancy.  It will likely be refined going forward and I expect you will see more teams at the U11 and U12 (perhaps U13) level playing both JDL and LH next year.  JDL has had too few games (5-6) and it's human nature to want to win them.  JDL would also have more of the developmental aspects questioned by SoS if teams used LH for winning/competition and JDL for "developing."  But it also takes a culture that doesn't yet exist - coaches, players and parents willing to commit to playing without a win at all costs mentality.    

But as to your hypothetical, you lost any credibility. If LH was just the top 8 right now versus JDL's 8, LH would not be better competition.  SoS also points out that's not the case with the 03s or even in the 04s right now.  But just look at the teams.  There are two Sting teams and two Solar teams in the top 8 of LH.  Essentially you are arguing that Sting and Solar didn't put their two best teams in and that Solar Byars, Solar Haylock, Sting West and Sting East provide better competition than Solar Pulpaneck, Solar Colvin, Sting Higgy and Sting Parsons.  If you're of that opinion, I can't persuade you of the fallacy of your position.

I think now you are finally getting it. My point exactly. I start talking LH is better and you get all bent out of shape about it. No numbers support any argument. That is why I have disputing everyone's argument that JDL is the league of champions based of could haves.

ForReal wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

slrsoccer wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

 There are two Sting teams and two Solar teams in the top 8 of LH.  Essentially you are arguing that Sting and Solar didn't put their two best teams in and that Solar Byars, Solar Haylock, Sting West and Sting East provide better competition than Solar Pulpaneck, Solar Colvin, Sting Higgy and Sting Parsons.  If you're of that opinion, I can't persuade you of the fallacy of your position.

justchootit wrote:

ForReal wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

slrsoccer wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

 There are two Sting teams and two Solar teams in the top 8 of LH.  Essentially you are arguing that Sting and Solar didn't put their two best teams in and that Solar Byars, Solar Haylock, Sting West and Sting East provide better competition than Solar Pulpaneck, Solar Colvin, Sting Higgy and Sting Parsons.  If you're of that opinion, I can't persuade you of the fallacy of your position.

For the Sting Teams I would say that........I think Sting East and West would probably both beat Parsons and give Higgy a hard game. Not to mention that one of these teams was offered the JDL spot and declined it......then it went to Parsons.......

ForReal wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

ForReal wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

slrsoccer wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:
Neither of these situations lend credibility to what you are arguing.  The first would have you believe you are not getting the top quality competition you need to develop and that in some regards may be true.  
The second would have you believe that they are playing too far up and that they do not have the skill that would make them able to compete with the top competition.  
If you say the JDL is as good as it is then the records would all be more similar.  You know the top teams would not always come out on top.  Proving that the teams are all in fact top teams competing in a competitive manner.  From what i see there are two top teams and a few middle teams and then a couple bottom teams.  That is essentially what LH is except in a larger form.  Which will change next year to a 9 or 10 team format.

I don't agree.  That is why I put goal differential into the equation.  Maybe I should have asked it another way.  Would you rather be 18-1 with an average score of 4-1 or be 3-12, losing by an average score of 2-1?  I don't consider this playing too far up.

There is always going to be some disparity in youth sports.  At this age, 1 or 2 great players can make a huge difference.  That is not the case as they get older.  My point being is that most leagues will have a team or two at the top and a team or two at the bottom.  It is the gap between the top and bottom that make for a competitive or non competitive situation.  There will always be outlier scores, we see it all the time.

The part in bold is what my entire stance is about.  The more teams, the bigger the disparity, the more "blowout" games.  Less teams, less disparity (some will still exist), less "blowout" games.

Like you said there will always be disparity is sports.  Goal differential will only get you so far in a argument.  I agree it should be taken into consideration.  And yes the more teams you have the bigger disparity there should be.  JDL is at a disadvantage just like everyone because of age pure shuffle.  It will take a year to settle down the dust.  LH is a 20 team league that will dwindle down to 10.  Top 10 tens teams in LH now would still have disparity to say the least, but it would be tons better.  If the JDL clubs were to all add a team next year then it would end up in the same situation.  Too many teams to give quality competition to all and the disparity between the teams would grow.  What would LH look like right now if it was just the top 8 teams in D1.  Way better competition to watch than JDL right now I assure you.

You had me until the end.  I know you are a Trump lover but you don't have to start talking like him.  

JDL is in its infancy.  It will likely be refined going forward and I expect you will see more teams at the U11 and U12 (perhaps U13) level playing both JDL and LH next year.  JDL has had too few games (5-6) and it's human nature to want to win them.  JDL would also have more of the developmental aspects questioned by SoS if teams used LH for winning/competition and JDL for "developing."  But it also takes a culture that doesn't yet exist - coaches, players and parents willing to commit to playing without a win at all costs mentality.    

But as to your hypothetical, you lost any credibility. If LH was just the top 8 right now versus JDL's 8, LH would not be better competition.  SoS also points out that's not the case with the 03s or even in the 04s right now.  But just look at the teams.  There are two Sting teams and two Solar teams in the top 8 of LH.  Essentially you are arguing that Sting and Solar didn't put their two best teams in and that Solar Byars, Solar Haylock, Sting West and Sting East provide better competition than Solar Pulpaneck, Solar Colvin, Sting Higgy and Sting Parsons.  If you're of that opinion, I can't persuade you of the fallacy of your position.

I think now you are finally getting it. My point exactly. I start talking LH is better and you get all bent out of shape about it. No numbers support any argument. That is why I have disputing everyone's argument that JDL is the league of champions based of could haves.

Not bent out of shape.  Sorry, you're not that important.  In the words of your candidate, "Believe me."  I just find it funny that you say that "5 of the 8 are a waste" and there are "no numbers," yet you have not responded to the data that I posted about JDL v. LH teams.  I wish there was a larger sample, but what's been played to date is pretty compelling.  Come to think of it, you are a lot like your candidate and every other politician.  Facts don't matter.

ForReal wrote:

justchootit wrote:

ForReal wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

slrsoccer wrote:

KeeperCommander wrote:

For the Sting Teams I would say that........I think Sting East and West would probably both beat Parsons and give Higgy a hard game. Not to mention that one of these teams was offered the JDL spot and declined it......then it went to Parsons.......

Interesting. These teams haven't played one another. Have they scrimmaged?  As for common opponents, Higgy has none though I think they beat DT Central in JDL. For the rest, I found:

Parsons 3 - Kicks JM 1
West 1 - Kicks 1
West 0 - Kicks 0
East 0 - Kicks 1

Parsons 3 - DT Central 0
Parsons 2 - DT Central 1
West 1 - DT Central 0
East 1 - DT Central 0

At Beat the Heat:
Parsons 2 - Unity 04 1
West 1 - Unity 04 0
Parsons 7 - FCD Texoma 04 0
West 5 - FCD Texoma 04 0
Parsons 0 - DTS 3
West 0 - DTS 5

I'd be interested to see them play, but it looks like you might be underestimating your sister teams.

BigErn wrote:It's really hard to believe there is still so much confusion as to what JDL is --

Teams aren't "offered a spot" in JDL.  The ECNL Clubs build two teams per age group for the upcoming three years of age groups.  Like ECNL, these two teams are formed though a tryout process, and they are to be the top two teams in those age groups in the Club.  They also participate in the three regional Pre ECNL events in preparation for their U14 year.

As I've mentioned a couple times, a few Clubs and some coaches did not buy in to the JDL.  I'm guessing that was due to them being uneducated, or giving in to combative parents with a fear of change that demanded to keep teams together at all costs.  It's evident that this is more prevalent in the 05-06 groups, and I expect that going forward these Clubs will enforce the formation and assignment of coaches to JDL teams just as they do with ECNL.  This will lead to more consistent, quality competition in JDL in the future.

BigErn wrote:It's really hard to believe there is still so much confusion as to what JDL is --

Teams aren't "offered a spot" in JDL.  The ECNL Clubs build two teams per age group for the upcoming three years of age groups.  Like ECNL, these two teams are formed though a tryout process, and they are to be the top two teams in those age groups in the Club.  They also participate in the three regional Pre ECNL events in preparation for their U14 year.

As I've mentioned a couple times, a few Clubs and some coaches did not buy in to the JDL.  I'm guessing that was due to them being uneducated, or giving in to combative parents with a fear of change that demanded to keep teams together at all costs.  It's evident that this is more prevalent in the 05-06 groups, and I expect that going forward these Clubs will enforce the formation and assignment of coaches to JDL teams just as they do with ECNL.  This will lead to more consistent, quality competition in JDL in the future.

KeeperCommander wrote:

BigErn wrote:It's really hard to believe there is still so much confusion as to what JDL is --

Teams aren't "offered a spot" in JDL.  The ECNL Clubs build two teams per age group for the upcoming three years of age groups.  Like ECNL, these two teams are formed though a tryout process, and they are to be the top two teams in those age groups in the Club.  They also participate in the three regional Pre ECNL events in preparation for their U14 year.

As I've mentioned a couple times, a few Clubs and some coaches did not buy in to the JDL.  I'm guessing that was due to them being uneducated, or giving in to combative parents with a fear of change that demanded to keep teams together at all costs.  It's evident that this is more prevalent in the 05-06 groups, and I expect that going forward these Clubs will enforce the formation and assignment of coaches to JDL teams just as they do with ECNL.  This will lead to more consistent, quality competition in JDL in the future.

More like how it should work over how some are operating it rather than what JDL is.

justchootit wrote:For the Sting Teams I would say that........I think Sting East and West would probably both beat Parsons and give Higgy a hard game. Not to mention that one of these teams was offered the JDL spot and declined it......then it went to Parsons.......

Sho'Nuff wrote:"This coach passed on JDL."  "Some coaches didn't buy in."  "Some coaches chose to do both"

I would just like to add that coaches like having the LH bye for their own self-preservation.

SickofSilliness wrote:Some coaches also take the approach that they can develop players without playing in a "developmental league".

Some coaches didn't buy into the limited substitution rules, which they felt hinders development and limits playing time.

BigErn wrote:

SickofSilliness wrote:Some coaches also take the approach that they can develop players without playing in a "developmental league".

Some coaches didn't buy into the limited substitution rules, which they felt hinders development and limits playing time.

Haven't we spent enough time harping on the name of the league just because it has the word 'development' in it?  

It is a Pre ECNL prep league and was never sold that it is more developmental than the next league ... that notion was construed by this forum.  

I haven't watched too much of DPh to this point, but as I mentioned, LW, CP and JD are utilizing the ECNL sub rules brilliantly by starting different players each match, trying players at different positions and experimenting with tactical formations -- They are taking full advantage of this year before ENCL/DA, just as JDL was created to do.

SickofSilliness wrote:

BigErn wrote:

SickofSilliness wrote:Some coaches also take the approach that they can develop players without playing in a "developmental league".

Some coaches didn't buy into the limited substitution rules, which they felt hinders development and limits playing time.

Haven't we spent enough time harping on the name of the league just because it has the word 'development' in it?  

It is a Pre ECNL prep league and was never sold that it is more developmental than the next league ... that notion was construed by this forum.  

I haven't watched too much of DPh to this point, but as I mentioned, LW, CP and JD are utilizing the ECNL sub rules brilliantly by starting different players each match, trying players at different positions and experimenting with tactical formations -- They are taking full advantage of this year before ENCL/DA, just as JDL was created to do.

Maybe not sold to you that way - but I know plenty of people that were sold (by coaches) that the league would be able to "focus more on development" since they would take away keeping score and the "need" for coaches to win.

tpitty wrote:

SickofSilliness wrote:

BigErn wrote:

SickofSilliness wrote:Some coaches also take the approach that they can develop players without playing in a "developmental league".

Some coaches didn't buy into the limited substitution rules, which they felt hinders development and limits playing time.

Haven't we spent enough time harping on the name of the league just because it has the word 'development' in it?  

It is a Pre ECNL prep league and was never sold that it is more developmental than the next league ... that notion was construed by this forum.  

I haven't watched too much of DPh to this point, but as I mentioned, LW, CP and JD are utilizing the ECNL sub rules brilliantly by starting different players each match, trying players at different positions and experimenting with tactical formations -- They are taking full advantage of this year before ENCL/DA, just as JDL was created to do.

Maybe not sold to you that way - but I know plenty of people that were sold (by coaches) that the league would be able to "focus more on development" since they would take away keeping score and the "need" for coaches to win.

Wouldn't the items in bold constitute developing those teams/players without the fear of standings? -- why yes they would.

Parents select the coaches, coaches gotta coach. Sounds like a few of these guys are doing it the right way.

tpitty wrote:For me to explain this, you actually have to pay attention. I know it is hard. Focus. This has been stated numerous times.
In classic you win to remain in D1.
In classic, teams coached by the coaches above were never at risk of falling out of D1

If you drop divisions or even games, you risk losing your better players. This isn't made up, happens all the time.
 So you are telling me, that prior to JDL, LW or Pulp would lose players "all the time" if they lost a game or 2?  Sure thing Donald.  Then, given the fact that Pulp and LW were developing the right way prior to JDL (by your own admission) those players were not interested in learning the right way and only playing on teams that won all their games, and losses (whether D1 or JDL) would then impact them the same way - they would leave to go to the team that never loses.  Players looking for development would seek these coaches - whether they are playing JDL or D1.  Players looking to play only on winning teams - will still look to play on winning teams.  

So you can train the exact same, but come game time, a classic coach HAS to put players in the positions that gives his team the best chance of winning and remaining in D1, and even more than that, on top of D1.
The top kids, or parents rather, want to play for top teams, top coaches. How does the uneducated parent  determine that? Oh, sorry, I completely missed that the purpose of JDL was to help "uneducated" parents to find a good coach.  Because all JDL coaches are good developmental coaches.   Typically they check the standings, or if they are super into it, they check past standings.  How many so-called "top kids" or "top parents" are so uneducated that they only look at standings?  We are talking about players who not only WANT to play at the highest level, but also have the ABILITY to play there.  And you are asserting the hordes of the players / parents who had no idea about the above coaches development style, and only went there due to their winning record?  
So Classic forces coaches who want to coach top teams, to play to win at all costs.
JDL allows coaches more flexibility in game formations, players selections, etc. Everyone still plays to win, but the cost of a loss isn't earth shattering.

Training hasn't changed all the sudden, and if you paid attention to the coaches mentioned, you would know they do it right and are highly regarded for a reason.

Zizou wrote:Your assertion only focus is on the elite players at this age. Due to the over emphasis on rankings, league standings, and winning players with soccer abilities are being passed up sometimes just because they cannot handle the physical sometimes dirty play. Another thing to consider is burnout. We are competing for national championship with players as early as 8 years of age. Every game becomes a must win, every game is treated as the most important game you will ever play. I still believe you can get your competitive fix through tournaments. My two cents.