ECNL swings back at DA

PowerKick wrote:

bwgophers wrote:
USSF can "give" the DA clubs all they want, but unless they are going to "give" the DA clubs significant $$ in order to even up the value proposition between DA2 and ECNL, DA2 will struggle to find a footing in the Southwest Conference of DA.

DA2 league with 5 or 6 clubs in Texas would be perfect for a lot of girls and parents.

No too much travel, play high school sports, and still have a chance for potential DA, what else one would ask for?

If they can do that and still manage to get the college coach exposure that they would get playing ECNL instead, then it has a chance to work.

bwgophers wrote:

PowerKick wrote:

bwgophers wrote:
USSF can "give" the DA clubs all they want, but unless they are going to "give" the DA clubs significant $$ in order to even up the value proposition between DA2 and ECNL, DA2 will struggle to find a footing in the Southwest Conference of DA.

DA2 league with 5 or 6 clubs in Texas would be perfect for a lot of girls and parents.

No too much travel, play high school sports, and still have a chance for potential DA, what else one would ask for?

If they can do that and still manage to get the college coach exposure that they would get playing ECNL instead, then it has a chance to work.

I just don't see the numbers from what I've heard, though admittedly anecdotally, plus what I heard were the results of Sting's survey.  I'm not sure there's enough to fill two clubs rosters with DA girls at every level.  There just doesn't seem to be the broad interest in giving up having a life outside of soccer.  So why would there be enough for DA2, much less 5-6 clubs of DA2, when you already have ECNL provided that ECNL remains relatively strong?

Maybe the youngsters will prove me wrong, but I suspect once they get a little older, they'll be no different and only the select few will really want DA.

If my DD isn't asked to be on a DA team, I think I would present ECNL as a more desirable option to my DD. Maybe time will change things, but for the foreseeable future, that's what I would do.

Agree, name change. I think the biggest thing is Ussf wants more control, maybe better coaching. At least a dedication to expanding your coaching knowledge.  I have "heard", and you know how that goes, that games count as training? I would say most top tier girls do an extra day of skills anyway. If that is the case, most girls are already there really. To me, it seems to be contradictory, if DA is saying you can only play 1 game a day, 2 days in a row, then must break, not allowed to play 3 days in a row. Then say you must train 4 days a week? If games count, training regimen would not be much different than current ecnl schedule, if at all. That's just for my dd. I am sure it varies. Sure wish they could have worked together and put something together to benefit all. Too many egos involved, I would guess.

PowerKick wrote:

2_cents_worth wrote:So if my DD plays for FCD, Solar, or Dallas Texans and doesn't get selected for DA, why wouldn't I move her to Sting where I pay less in club fees?

You may ask the same question to yourself now, why don't move to d'feeters?

Sting will be the next d'feeters. Majority of the talents will move to Big3, even if just for DA2 hoping to get a spot in DA the next year.

This ripple effect will spread into all age groups, especially the the younger U16 and below because every kid has a dream to go to DA and play D1. As a result Sting will lose all their top teams and eventually become a 2nd tier club just like d'feeters right now, could be a good acquisition target though.

We can come back in 3 years to see what happens.

Was thinking the same thing. Kids who cant make a top team already move to dfeeters. Thats why feet is buying whole teams to remain competitive. Sting getting 2nd tier players who cant/wont make top level just sets their trajectory on same path as feet. Sting and Feet will be big dogs in ecnl, but remains to be seen what value is left in being big fish in small and rapidly shrinking pond.

I disagree with BW...only one of these leagues survives as a relevant national league in 5 years. Either DA flops and goes to a much smaller format, or it becomes the top national league and ecnl has to rebrand itself. ECNL in its current format cannot remain a draw for college scouts if the top talent is recognized to be somewhere else. They already had issues with quailty for clubs that dont have competitive teams at every age group. Those issues are about to multiply several fold.

I can see it now, DA = u12-u-18. ECNL = u3-u11, and adding an "any gender" league. There can be some revenue there, too.

ForReal wrote:

bwgophers wrote:

PowerKick wrote:

bwgophers wrote:
USSF can "give" the DA clubs all they want, but unless they are going to "give" the DA clubs significant $$ in order to even up the value proposition between DA2 and ECNL, DA2 will struggle to find a footing in the Southwest Conference of DA.

DA2 league with 5 or 6 clubs in Texas would be perfect for a lot of girls and parents.

No too much travel, play high school sports, and still have a chance for potential DA, what else one would ask for?

If they can do that and still manage to get the college coach exposure that they would get playing ECNL instead, then it has a chance to work.

I just don't see the numbers from what I've heard, though admittedly anecdotally, plus what I heard were the results of Sting's survey.  I'm not sure there's enough to fill two clubs rosters with DA girls at every level.  There just doesn't seem to be the broad interest in giving up having a life outside of soccer.  So why would there be enough for DA2, much less 5-6 clubs of DA2, when you already have ECNL provided that ECNL remains relatively strong?

Maybe the youngsters will prove me wrong, but I suspect once they get a little older, they'll be no different and only the select few will really want DA.

If my DD isn't asked to be on a DA team, I think I would present ECNL as a more desirable option to my DD.  Maybe time will change things, but for the foreseeable future, that's what I would do.

What I have heard, is pretty much in line with what you have, which is why I've made the predictions that I have.

HOWEVER, with that said, I have to acknowledge that most of my information is coming from kids/families of current HS aged kids. These kids have already had a taste of the experience of playing for their HS, and if they enjoyed it, are going to obviously be reluctant to give that up. Also, a large majority of the "best" talent at U16 and above have already verbally committed, or, they are on plenty of college coach radar screens, and whether they play in DA or ECNL the next couple of years isn't going to have a huge impact on their recruitment.

It's quite possible that this could change over time, where the kids who haven't experienced playing for their HS, may not feel such a strong pull, especially if they don't have any older siblings to tell them about what a great time they had playing with their friends in HS.

Again, there's a lot to be ferreted out over the next 2-3 years. I still think that the market in NTX can support both DA and ECNL, and I do think that's what will happen over time, mainly because ECNL is so well entrenched already. It will be interesting to check back in 3 years and see where everything is at. Of course, by then, I'll be done with youth soccer in NTX until the DGD's come along.

bwgophers wrote:

ForReal wrote:

bwgophers wrote:

PowerKick wrote:

bwgophers wrote:
USSF can "give" the DA clubs all they want, but unless they are going to "give" the DA clubs significant $$ in order to even up the value proposition between DA2 and ECNL, DA2 will struggle to find a footing in the Southwest Conference of DA.

DA2 league with 5 or 6 clubs in Texas would be perfect for a lot of girls and parents.

No too much travel, play high school sports, and still have a chance for potential DA, what else one would ask for?

If they can do that and still manage to get the college coach exposure that they would get playing ECNL instead, then it has a chance to work.

I just don't see the numbers from what I've heard, though admittedly anecdotally, plus what I heard were the results of Sting's survey.  I'm not sure there's enough to fill two clubs rosters with DA girls at every level.  There just doesn't seem to be the broad interest in giving up having a life outside of soccer.  So why would there be enough for DA2, much less 5-6 clubs of DA2, when you already have ECNL provided that ECNL remains relatively strong?

Maybe the youngsters will prove me wrong, but I suspect once they get a little older, they'll be no different and only the select few will really want DA.

If my DD isn't asked to be on a DA team, I think I would present ECNL as a more desirable option to my DD.  Maybe time will change things, but for the foreseeable future, that's what I would do.

What I have heard, is pretty much in line with what you have, which is why I've made the predictions that I have.

HOWEVER, with that said, I have to acknowledge that most of my information is coming from kids/families of current HS aged kids.  These kids have already had a taste of the experience of playing for their HS, and if they enjoyed it, are going to obviously be reluctant to give that up.  Also, a large majority of the "best" talent at U16 and above have already verbally committed, or, they are on plenty of college coach radar screens, and whether they play in DA or ECNL the next couple of years isn't going to have a huge impact on their recruitment.

It's quite possible that this could change over time, where the kids who haven't experienced playing for their HS, may not feel such a strong pull, especially if they don't have any older siblings to tell them about what a great time they had playing with their friends in HS.

Again, there's a lot to be ferreted out over the next 2-3 years.  I still think that the market in NTX can support both DA and ECNL, and I do think that's what will happen over time, mainly because ECNL is so well entrenched already.  It will be interesting to check back in 3 years and see where everything is at. Of course, by then, I'll be done with youth soccer in NTX until the DGD's come along.

Agreed. That's why I said maybe time will change things. But as for you, you'll never be done with youth soccer. You'll be "skiberdad," who claims to not have a DD playing soccer in NTX.

Fun to hear everyone's theories on how DA/ECNL will play out and why.

Don't forget the clubs are a business first and foremost, and rule number 1 is
follow the $.

Don't think anyone has a clue at this point, as the ultimate driver as it plays out will be which option is the most economically beneficial for each of the 5 or 4 big clubs. Some may make decisions along the way, that box them in or could even cause them to fold or merge, but betting each is making decisions based on where they see the best positioning for $.

Bw raised an interesting point(imagine that). You will have two perspectives entering DA. You will have the older girls who like he was talking about, have already played HS soccer. Then you will have the younger girls who do not know otherwise. I really think that the DA landscape might look completely different between the younger girls and the older girls.

Cleansheets wrote:Bw raised an interesting point(imagine that). You will have two perspectives entering DA. You will have the older girls who like he was talking about, have already played HS soccer. Then you will have the younger girls who do not know otherwise. I really think that the DA landscape might look completely different between the younger girls and the older girls.

I'm not so sure. I think parents care more about HS soccer than the girls. It's fun for them for a couple years, but too many college bound JRs and SRs already elect to forego HS soccer...this before DA has opened its doors. The HS thing is being oversold for the player demographic we are talking about.  The "having a life out of soccer" thing is also being oversold. The players with any expectation of getting a scholarship to play in college already put the same time in DA is expecting.

ECNL is entrenched in NTX mainly because all the best clubs and most the best teams from NTX are in ECNL. One of best decisions my DD made was moving to ECNL when she did (though it was more about coach fit and level of play than ECNL). Paid off for her, but I'm not convinced if she had played for same coach in a different league she wouldn't have had the same experience. Top coaches are just like top players. They want the top level. It's probable the best coaches will be found in DA going forward....thus the players...thus the scouts....thus the league credibility.

Not saying a league for the 2nd tier won't exist. I'm sure us club will pay topdrawer a ton of money to write a bunch of articles suggesting ECNL is not 2nd tier. But it will take the PDAs, Slammers, Surf, Hawks etc. to pull out of DA to make that any more legit than their other PR...not Sting (plus a handful of clubs that weren't competitive in their regions).  As for NTX, all it will take is one parent report of 85 coaches lined up at a DA game and the rest will follow.

Cleansheets wrote:Bw raised an interesting point(imagine that).

Even a blind nut finds a squirrel every now and then...

Spoken like the sage you are.

HomeStretch wrote: I'm not so sure. I think parents care more about HS soccer than the girls.

Maybe in some places, but that is definitely NOT what I observed or that my DD has experienced with her HS school team.

ForReal wrote:

bwgophers wrote:

PowerKick wrote:

bwgophers wrote:
USSF can "give" the DA clubs all they want, but unless they are going to "give" the DA clubs significant $$ in order to even up the value proposition between DA2 and ECNL, DA2 will struggle to find a footing in the Southwest Conference of DA.

DA2 league with 5 or 6 clubs in Texas would be perfect for a lot of girls and parents.

No too much travel, play high school sports, and still have a chance for potential DA, what else one would ask for?

If they can do that and still manage to get the college coach exposure that they would get playing ECNL instead, then it has a chance to work.

I just don't see the numbers from what I've heard, though admittedly anecdotally, plus what I heard were the results of Sting's survey.  I'm not sure there's enough to fill two clubs rosters with DA girls at every level.  There just doesn't seem to be the broad interest in giving up having a life outside of soccer.  So why would there be enough for DA2, much less 5-6 clubs of DA2, when you already have ECNL provided that ECNL remains relatively strong?

Maybe the youngsters will prove me wrong, but I suspect once they get a little older, they'll be no different and only the select few will really want DA.

If my DD isn't asked to be on a DA team, I think I would present ECNL as a more desirable option to my DD.  Maybe time will change things, but for the foreseeable future, that's what I would do.

From what I've heard from a couple coaches that came out of club USSDA meetings is that the proposed DA2 is an option that requires a lesser commitment than DA ... Only 3 required training sessions per week and freedom to participate in other activities.  

In my opinion, this is the only way the USSDA would have real success in offering a second division with the ECNL still out there ... Could be a larger threat to the ECNL than DA itself if it does take hold.

http://www.lapremierfc.com/football/girlsacademy/academy2

DA sounds just like a new iPhone. You really don't know if you need it. Looks and acts just like what you already have. People are willing to get in line for it because someone says it is the best thing out there.
Hell I don't know, maybe it is. I have an iPhone.

F
Fun to talk about, and discuss, I guess. In reality, who really cares. If your kid is good enough to have to deal with these decisions, count your blessings. But the main job of us crazy parents, at all levels, is to make sure they have fun. Use sports as the tool it is. Show what hard work gets you, what laziness gets you, how to be part of a team, how to follow, how to lead. Hopefully a tool to help crank out strong women, that become awesome producers in society.

I believe that they said in the Sting meeting that Slammers was making the same decision as Sting. And to be sure, it was not a Sting decision but a player decision. Sting asked and the overwhelming answer was that the players did not want to play DA and without fielding a team in every age group, you can not field a team in any. I can't imagine that girls at Sting feel dramatically different than girls at other clubs. Maybe the others just have not been asked yet. I know there was some consternation at Sting in the older age groups as to who would be selected for DA and it was not "yay, I might get picked." but more like "I really hope they don't expect me to play DA.". Might be some fallout at the other 3 clubs, especially at the older age groups.

While not being allowed to play other sports has been mentioned, I heard from most of the girls I spoke with that home work was a major consideration. When you don't get how until 9:30 or 10:00 and you have not eaten or showered and you have 3-4 hours of work to do before you go to bed and you are expected to do that 4 nights a week, it was viewed as too much. ECNL was providing the college views that most needed. Of the 5 ECNL team in NT in each age group, how many were playing on a National Team or in a NT pool? Per age group... 4? 5? For the remaining players, exactly what is the additional benefit? Someone mentioned above that the bottom half of ECNL was fairly weak. True enough. There are certainly conferences and the bottoms of many conferences that were consistently weaker than others. Gophers brought up the point that more of DA moving forward is made up of non ECNL clubs than what remaining in ECNL. If the talent pool faded for the bottom half of ECNL, the same or or more will have to be true of DA. Certainly you can expect NT, SoCal etc to field strong teams but is the overall caliber of play really going to change? It really seems that the overlap of clubs is actually minimal with far more going one direction or another. It would not surprise me at all that those 18 are forced to decide one way or another in the next year and you will end up with 2 leagues. After all, no Club can field two "Number 1 " teams. One league or the other will get the Number 2 and they won't be happy about it.

BigErn wrote:In my opinion, this is the only way the USSDA would have real success in offering a second division with the ECNL still out there ... Could be a larger threat to the ECNL than DA itself if it does take hold.

BigE - I won't disagree with you there, provided that DA2 can address the following similar to ECNL:

1) Provide appropriate level of competition for a reasonable cost (i.e. Will you be required to make trips to Colo & KC for league matches?)
2) Provide similar exposure to college coaches

fireman1594 wrote:http://www.lapremierfc.com/football/girlsacademy/academy2

Again, as I've stated before, DA2 makes total sense in SoCal. You have enough density of DA clubs within driving distance of one another, that it makes financial sense for the 2nd tier kids, while still being able to get them the exposure they will need in front of the Colleges that they are most likely to attend, and you capitalize on synergy between DA and DPL.

However, note that the 4 SoCal DA clubs that are NOT listed as part of this DPL league (Slammers, Surf, Blues, & West Coast FC) are the 4 SoCal clubs that are currently listed as doing both DA & ECNL in 2017-2018.

So again, even the big clubs in SoCal don't seem to fully agree on the road to take.

fireman1594 wrote:http://www.lapremierfc.com/football/girlsacademy/academy2

This makes my point.  These clubs don't/no longer offer ECNL so they created Academy II to fill the gap.  They do not want to lose those players to ECNL clubs.

All that we are talking about hinges on the deal Sting made with ECNL. I'm sure their pitch was for exclusivity and a corner of the ECNL market here in Dallas and in Austin. 

ECNL will be working very hard in the next three years to lure those clubs with both DA and ECNL out of DA. ECNL will do this by making sure each club receives a large piece of that market in their area. 

I also believe ECNL will take a break during the high school season to allow players to do both uninterrupted.

ECNL will also bank on low numbers playing for the DA teams due to lack of games and limited playing time for players.

If Sting's decision had anything to do with some kind of "deal" made with ECNL over exclusivity in NTX and/or CTX, that would be a huge mistake for both sides.

I'm pretty sure sting will be taken care of by ECNL.

I have said that it will take time to for DA to establish itself but it will inevitably become the top league.  It is run by the top soccer org in the country and the goal is to get the best talent together to make the USWNT.  But that means it will have to be more exclusive.  4 NTX teams was way too many teams, and 3 probably still is.  Once they realize this in 3 years, then it will happen and be what it was proposed to be.  Or I guess it will totally fail...

What worries me the most is that USSF and DA is still being reactionary.  First we heard that DA was mixed age groups starting at u14.  Now it will only be mixed age groups in the 17/18 year.  No wait, it will be 16/17 and 17/18.  Now it appears that DA2 is being put together in order to combat ECNL and its stance to fight DA.  

If USSF is the governing body and the most powerful soccer organization in the land, then why did it not have all of the details worked out from the beginning?  Why has it appeared to change course multiple times?  Why do we hear a mixed message about playing high school sports?  Why is it having to be reactionary to the "2nd tier" league?  It should have a plan, implement it and not care what others think or do.

So I wonder why any of us should have any confidence in USSF and that they will pull this off and be able to deliver on DA?

OLJW wrote:I'm tired. My Unicorn looks unhappy and I'm losing sleep over it.

I'm with you. Mine is tired as well and his toots don't smell the same as they used to. This may turn as many away from soccer as the talent that it draws.

DDdad wrote:I believe that they said in the Sting meeting that Slammers was making the same decision as Sting.   And to be sure, it was not a Sting decision but a player decision.  Sting asked and the overwhelming answer was that the players did not want to play DA and without fielding a team in every age group, you can not field a team in any.   I can't imagine that girls at Sting feel dramatically different than girls at other clubs.  Maybe the others just have not been asked yet.   I know there was some consternation at Sting in the older age groups as to who would be selected for DA and it was not "yay, I might get picked." but more like "I really hope they don't expect me to play DA.".   Might be some fallout at the other 3 clubs, especially at the older age groups.  

While not being allowed to play other sports has been mentioned, I heard from most of the girls I spoke with that home work was a major consideration.  When you don't get how until 9:30 or 10:00 and you have not eaten or showered and you have 3-4 hours of work to do before you go to bed and you are expected to do that 4 nights a week, it was viewed as too much.   ECNL was providing the college views that most needed.  Of the 5 ECNL team in NT in each age group, how many were playing on a National Team or in a NT pool?  Per age group... 4?  5?   For the remaining players, exactly what is the additional benefit?  Someone mentioned above that the bottom half of ECNL was fairly weak.  True enough.  There are certainly conferences and the bottoms of many conferences that were consistently weaker than others.  Gophers brought up the point that more of DA moving forward is made up of non ECNL clubs than what remaining in ECNL.  If the talent pool faded for the bottom half of ECNL, the same or or more will have to be true of DA.  Certainly you can expect NT, SoCal etc to field strong teams but is the overall caliber of play really going to change?   It really seems that the overlap of clubs is actually minimal with far more going one direction or another.   It would not surprise me at all that those 18 are forced to decide one way or another in the next year and you will end up with 2 leagues.   After all, no Club can field two "Number 1 " teams.  One league or the other will get the Number 2 and they won't be happy about it.  

In my opinion, Sting's mind was made up way before the survey. It was sold as "why would anyone want da".  As stated earlier, they are the only club that I am aware of that is/was advertising da would cost the same as ecnl. They also polled the current ecnl players, who mostly have all already tasted high school soccer and have committed of close to committing to colleges. Why would they pick da really? Who cares if in a year or two if it is the top league in the country with the most scouts showing up, best coaches, practicing with the top talent. I think Sting wanted this outcome, and helped steer it there.  Maybe the DOC being on the board of directors for ecnl clouded judgement, who knows. Their race to run, they laid down their poker hand.   I have an '06 also, and if they were polled, I think it would have been a much different outcome. It is all still to be determined, but if ecnl does become a "b" league, there is no way it is worth spending 8-10,000 a year on. There is enough talent in dfw to pull off a "b" league and get the exposure those kids need to get to the colleges they want. A dfw b team is only doing Austin, Tulsa favors in traveling. 

One flaw of ecnl, in my opinion, is it is driven by the win, except coaches. In regards to playing time, I witnessed multiple league ecnl games where starters played 100% of minutes of an 80 minute game. Head scratcher really. Creates a dog eat dog environment on team. In my opinion, the da seems to be more about the developing of an entire team. If I was a club, I would hang my hat on relationships with college coaches and getting my kids there. Skins on the wall do not equate to this. I guess it attracts a certain demographic, but myself not included.