Re: Why is there No protection given to Keepers anymore

by orbitzone2000 29/07/14, 02:05 pm

4-3-3 wrote:Persuasive stuff there Firebird. Go look up the professional salaries by position and tell me which one is the lowest. Then explain why would the most difficult and physically challenging position be the lowest paid?

Keepers are critical to a great team...no denying that. Mentally and psychologically, I could agree keep could be the most difficult position. But physically? No way. Not even close.

Not saying keepers are generally unathletic, but RELATIVE to field players, they are generally not on the same level. Most teams the keepers don't have the level of fitness or agility as field players, and any physical tests the team does, keepers have a hard time keeping up or are held to a lower standard. Their athleticism is more the type that translates to success in volleyball. I don't think there is any rational argument justifying keeper as the most physically challenging position in the game. Love to hear one though.

Ok you got me to Bite on your ignorance.

You question a keepers cardio & conditioning? That is only a problem at the academy level, most of which I'll blame on ignorant coaches. Coaches are quick to take the out of shape and most unathletic players and put them in the goal for one reason. They hurt them less their and actually might make a save or two instead of being honest with the parent and saying maybe you should choose another sport or activity.

You bring up the pros, yes go take a look at their salaries. For instance Tim Howard, he is the third highest paid player on everton's team. Does that mean he's out of shape or not as good as the two ahead of him? Howard is arguabley the best player on his team. A great GK is the most valuable PC of the team to have, problem is, there is not enough of them to go around. Who as a young child wants to throw their body into harms way over a ball or a game. Takes a very unique athlete to do this both physically and mentally.

You say it's not physical or demanding? That's laughable and that's why I don't take you seriously. Go play a game or two at keeper at the highest level in your age and then comeback and say it's not physical? You have obviously not ever played GK and really don't know why you are commenting. Heck, I would challenge you to come to one of my DD's Training sessions and try and do what she does. Good shape, bad shape or no shape at all, You won't last 10 mins.

by orbitzone2000 29/07/14, 02:06 pm

ONLYASOCCERDAD wrote:
orbitzone2000 wrote:I agree with the original poster in this case.

As a keeper myself for 15 + years and the father of a keeper I'm probably a little bias when it comes to these issues. I have found that referees are getting really relaxed in the calls they are giving to the young GK's these days. Make no mistake about it, if the ball resides in the 18 yard box the keeper has the right away. I see this a lot with the aggressive forwards that are being taught and trained to play through the keeper most of the time. I and my DD's keeper coach train her to protect herself at all times. This is because there are a lot of wreckless players that will try and go through a keeper to play a ball. Let's not kid ourselves here. Keepers are at a great disadvantage when it comes to 1v1 situations. They should be protected. Referees are way to quick to award PK's. In almost every situation a keeper should be given the benefit of the doubt unless it's obvious that they have made a wreckless attempt to play the player and not the ball. If a keeper charges and is attempting to make a play on the ball and the forward gets a shot off and said GK does not get a touch on the ball, there after the forwards momentum carries them into the keeper and causing them to go tumbling, I would suggest a no call is deemed in that situation. The keeper has the right to the ball and it is up to the forward to get the shot off and get out of the way. Most good forwards will get out of the way after the shot as they see the keeper coming. Samething on set pcs from the corner or outside the box. Many players are crashing the goal and the keeper goes up to win the ball, I have seen way to many officials allow contact in that situation.

I also want to add the obvious. GK is the hardest position on the field and most physical. Although I'm not condoning the actions of many referees and there erroneous calls on GK's, I will say if your BB or DD plan on being an effective keeper, they must be fearless. Don't be afraid of giving away a PK or getting a card. As long as they are playing the ball they are playing within the perimeters of the rules.

WRONG! yes you are biased lol

Please elaborate? Thanks for noticing I'm biased.

by beastmaster 29/07/14, 02:24 pm

orbitzone2000 wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:Persuasive stuff there Firebird. Go look up the professional salaries by position and tell me which one is the lowest. Then explain why would the most difficult and physically challenging position be the lowest paid?

Keepers are critical to a great team...no denying that. Mentally and psychologically, I could agree keep could be the most difficult position. But physically? No way. Not even close.

Not saying keepers are generally unathletic, but RELATIVE to field players, they are generally not on the same level. Most teams the keepers don't have the level of fitness or agility as field players, and any physical tests the team does, keepers have a hard time keeping up or are held to a lower standard. Their athleticism is more the type that translates to success in volleyball. I don't think there is any rational argument justifying keeper as the most physically challenging position in the game. Love to hear one though.
Ok you got me to Bite on your ignorance.

You question a keepers cardio & conditioning? That is only a problem at the academy level, most of which I'll blame on ignorant coaches. Coaches are quick to take the out of shape and most unathletic players and put them in the goal for one reason. They hurt them less their and actually might make a save or two instead of being honest with the parent and saying maybe you should choose another sport or activity.

You bring up the pros, yes go take a look at their salaries. For instance Tim Howard, he is the third highest paid player on everton's team. Does that mean he's out of shape or not as good as the two ahead of him? Howard is arguabley the best player on his team. A great GK is the most valuable PC of the team to have, problem is, there is not enough of them to go around. Who as a young child wants to throw their body into harms way over a ball or a game. Takes a very unique athlete to do this both physically and mentally.

You say it's not physical or demanding? That's laughable and that's why I don't take you seriously. Go play a game or two at keeper at the highest level in your age and then comeback and say it's not physical? You have obviously not ever played GK and really don't know why you are commenting. Heck, I would challenge you to come to one of my DD's Training sessions and try and do what she does. Good shape, bad shape or no shape at all, You won't last 10 mins.

Well said Orbit. My GK DD can physically hang with every other player on her team. Her coach expects that from her, as do her parents. Keepers aren't agile? Good luck with that. While I am not going to sit here and say it is the hardest position or most physically demanding, I will say that I hope for your sake that the keeper on your dd's team is one of the most agile players on the team.

Go ahead and tell my dd that her athletic ability better translate to volleyball, she would personally laugh in your face.

And I will extend another invite to come to one of my dd's goalkeeper training sessions and see how you fair.

by Guest 29/07/14, 02:26 pm

orbitzone2000 wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:Persuasive stuff there Firebird. Go look up the professional salaries by position and tell me which one is the lowest. Then explain why would the most difficult and physically challenging position be the lowest paid?

Keepers are critical to a great team...no denying that. Mentally and psychologically, I could agree keep could be the most difficult position. But physically? No way. Not even close.

Not saying keepers are generally unathletic, but RELATIVE to field players, they are generally not on the same level. Most teams the keepers don't have the level of fitness or agility as field players, and any physical tests the team does, keepers have a hard time keeping up or are held to a lower standard. Their athleticism is more the type that translates to success in volleyball. I don't think there is any rational argument justifying keeper as the most physically challenging position in the game. Love to hear one though.
Ok you got me to Bite on your ignorance.

You question a keepers cardio & conditioning? That is only a problem at the academy level, most of which I'll blame on ignorant coaches. Coaches are quick to take the out of shape and most unathletic players and put them in the goal for one reason. They hurt them less their and actually might make a save or two instead of being honest with the parent and saying maybe you should choose another sport or activity.

You bring up the pros, yes go take a look at their salaries. For instance Tim Howard, he is the third highest paid player on everton's team. Does that mean he's out of shape or not as good as the two ahead of him? Howard is arguabley the best player on his team. A great GK is the most valuable PC of the team to have, problem is, there is not enough of them to go around. Who as a young child wants to throw their body into harms way over a ball or a game. Takes a very unique athlete to do this both physically and mentally.

You say it's not physical or demanding? That's laughable and that's why I don't take you seriously. Go play a game or two at keeper at the highest level in your age and then comeback and say it's not physical? You have obviously not ever played GK and really don't know why you are commenting. Heck, I would challenge you to come to one of my DD's Training sessions and try and do what she does. Good shape, bad shape or no shape at all, You won't last 10 mins.

You must've gotten too many concussions playing keeper. I didn't say it wasn't physical or demanding, I said relative to field players, keepers are not as athletic, and any claim that keep is the most difficult position on the field is bogus.

I.Casillas is also one of the highest paid players, but keepers on average are the lowest paid. You can't grab one or two examples of the highest paid keeps in the world to make that point. Check the facts. If they were as valuable as you suggest, this simply wouldn't be the case. The market for keepers does not work counter to every other commodity in the world. Go grab the highest paid players at any other position and compare them to Tim Howard's salary. The gap will be massive for each and every position on the field.

And I can guarantee you, without hesitation, I wouldn't last 10 mins doing your daughter's keep training. LOL. Clear the fog from your head, that is 100% irrelevant.

Since you're obviously impaired, I'll leave you be to live in your delusional world where goalkeeping is the most difficult and physically demanding position in the sport, and thus they should be bestowed special protection and rights beyond those defined in the laws of the game.

by Guest 29/07/14, 02:44 pm

This discussion reminds me of kickers in the NFL. As if punters and kicker parents could get on a football parent forum and claim refs aren't protecting kickers enough. And kickers have the hardest and most physically demanding job. And kickers are the most valuable members of any team. Never mind that kickers are paid a fraction of other positions, that's only because good kickers are hard to find. Very Happy

On an NFL play last season, a kicker on a designed fake ran around the pocket trying to get a first down ....was blasted by the defense. Perfectly legal shoulder tackle...just got hit really, really hard.

Ref threw what looked like a sympathy flag because the kicker was popped so violently. NFL should probably go ahead and change the rules for kickers too...even though they've got the hardest job and are more valuable than everyone else on the field, they sure could use the extra protection when they get out on the field with the other less athletic players.

by Lefty 29/07/14, 03:16 pm

4-3-3 wrote:This discussion reminds me of kickers in the NFL. As if punters and kicker parents could get on a football parent forum and claim refs aren't protecting kickers enough. And kickers have the hardest and most physically demanding job. And kickers are the most valuable members of any team. Never mind that kickers are paid a fraction of other positions, that's only because good kickers are hard to find.

On an NFL play last season, a kicker on a designed fake ran around the pocket trying to get a first down ....was blasted by the defense. Perfectly legal shoulder tackle...just got hit really, really hard.

Ref threw what looked like a sympathy flag because the kicker was popped so violently. NFL should probably go ahead and change the rules for kickers too...even though they've got the hardest job and are more valuable than everyone else on the field, they sure could use the extra protection when they get out on the field with the other less athletic players.

Both are specialist positions.

Kickers would not be successful trying to contribute in other positions, and most positional players would look foolish trying to kick, though a few position players have had some success as kickers in days gone by, but not the modern era.

Pretty much the same situation for keepers in soccer once they get beyond academy.

What you say Sounder?

by beastmaster 29/07/14, 03:18 pm

I actually totally disagree with the original poster and his whining about keepers not being protected enough. Keepers are protected to an extent, but certainly not to the degree that the original poster would like them to be, nor should they be. If my dd did what he describes his daughter did I would expect a pk to be called. She can't lift her leg in the air, trip a forward and claim she was protecting herself especially when she doesn't have the ball. The original poster sounds like he would like it if forwards would just give way to keepers so that a keeper can do what they please. Silly.

However, I don't claim that my kids position is the most difficult or demanding on the field. Is is very difficult and demanding, absolutely! But it is a different kind of difficult and demanding then other positions. Probably the most mental position on the field, it's a constant mind game.

But don't say she isn't as athletic as her teammates. She works as hard as the rest of them. Yes the norm at younger ages is to pick the slow, big kid for keeper. Doesn't work that way anymore at my dd's age.

by futbollove 29/07/14, 03:36 pm

The day my DD is slower than, or less athletic than the keeper, is the day she starts playing GK!! Laughing

I have seen a number of keepers intentionally take out strikers on 50/50 balls with no whistle from the officials. While officials may not be "protecting" keepers the way the OP would like, they certainly aren't penalizing them at the rate the OP would have us all believe either.

by 00GKdad 29/07/14, 03:42 pm

The argument that goalkeepers are not as athletic as field players doesn't make sense to me since most goalkeepers start out as field players and don't make the switch until mid-late teens. Tim Howard and Hope Solo were both strikers earlier in their careers; Solo was apparently a standout. Did they suddenly lose speed, strength, and agility when they put gloves on?

by Lefty 29/07/14, 03:45 pm

futbollove wrote:The day my DD is slower than, or less athletic than the keeper, is the day she starts playing GK!!

I have seen a number of keepers intentionally take out strikers on 50/50 balls with no whistle from the officials. While officials may not be "protecting" keepers the way the OP would like, they certainly aren't penalizing them at the rate the OP would have us all believe either.

Think your 'faster, more athletic' DD could play the position better than the current keeper for her team?

I know mine can't, but I also know there is no keeper that could begin to run the middle of the field like she does.

Just different skillsets.

by Guest 29/07/14, 04:38 pm

00GKdad wrote:The argument that goalkeepers are not as athletic as field players doesn't make sense to me since most goalkeepers start out as field players and don't make the switch until mid-late teens. Tim Howard and Hope Solo were both strikers earlier in their careers; Solo was apparently a standout. Did they suddenly lose speed, strength, and agility when they put gloves on?

I think you're making my point. Tim howard and Hope Solo were great athletes, thus they became stand out keepers. No question they were as athletic as field players because they excelled as field players. Put them in a 1v1 situation against a field player, now they can use their hands? They are not at a disadvantage requiring some new special protection from refs. If anything you need to protect field players from Hope.

Your typical kid that plays keeper only from u8 does not fall into this category. I'm not knocking the position, or trying to minimize their importance. I actually do think they are one of the most important positions on the field, and a great keeper can make an ordinary defense become extraordinary. I was surprised to find the keeper salaries were so low...seems they are definitely undervalued. I'm just saying we go too far in claiming keepers, who cover the least ground and often have the fewest touches, have the most physically demanding job on the field and need extra protections beyond what they already have. Mental fortitude and certain strengths in reflexes, aerial ability and judgement? No doubt - keepers need those in spades.

My DD is tall, but I doubt seriously she could ever be a keeper. She doesn't have the mental profile required to do the position, and I do have mucho respect for the DDs that can do it. Any keeper parent friends of mine please know I was not throwing shade towards anyone's individual DD.

by orbitzone2000 29/07/14, 05:53 pm

4-3-3 wrote:
00GKdad wrote:The argument that goalkeepers are not as athletic as field players doesn't make sense to me since most goalkeepers start out as field players and don't make the switch until mid-late teens. Tim Howard and Hope Solo were both strikers earlier in their careers; Solo was apparently a standout. Did they suddenly lose speed, strength, and agility when they put gloves on?

I think you're making my point. Tim howard and Hope Solo were great athletes, thus they became stand out keepers. No question they were as athletic as field players because they excelled as field players. Put them in a 1v1 situation against a field player, now they can use their hands? They are not at a disadvantage requiring some new special protection from refs. If anything you need to protect field players from Hope.

Your typical kid that plays keeper only from u8 does not fall into this category. I'm not knocking the position, or trying to minimize their importance. I actually do think they are one of the most important positions on the field, and a great keeper can make an ordinary defense become extraordinary. I was surprised to find the keeper salaries were so low...seems they are definitely undervalued. I'm just saying we go too far in claiming keepers, who cover the least ground and often have the fewest touches, have the most physically demanding job on the field and need extra protections beyond what they already have. Mental fortitude and certain strengths in reflexes, aerial ability and judgement? No doubt - keepers need those in spades.

My DD is tall, but I doubt seriously she could ever be a keeper. She doesn't have the mental profile required to do the position, and I do have mucho respect for the DDs that can do it. Any keeper parent friends of mine please know I was not throwing shade towards anyone's individual DD.

I'm glad your coming to your senses. You have gone from keepers are not athletic, not very physically demanding covering the least amount of ground, & are out of shape. To they are the most valuable commodity, and the most under valued/underpayed position on the field.

Just an FYI, I've had many a concussion playing GK and yet I still know 4+3+3=10

cheers

by orbitzone2000 29/07/14, 06:03 pm

4-3-3 wrote:
orbitzone2000 wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:Persuasive stuff there Firebird. Go look up the professional salaries by position and tell me which one is the lowest. Then explain why would the most difficult and physically challenging position be the lowest paid?

Keepers are critical to a great team...no denying that. Mentally and psychologically, I could agree keep could be the most difficult position. But physically? No way. Not even close.

Not saying keepers are generally unathletic, but RELATIVE to field players, they are generally not on the same level. Most teams the keepers don't have the level of fitness or agility as field players, and any physical tests the team does, keepers have a hard time keeping up or are held to a lower standard. Their athleticism is more the type that translates to success in volleyball. I don't think there is any rational argument justifying keeper as the most physically challenging position in the game. Love to hear one though.
Ok you got me to Bite on your ignorance.

You question a keepers cardio & conditioning? That is only a problem at the academy level, most of which I'll blame on ignorant coaches. Coaches are quick to take the out of shape and most unathletic players and put them in the goal for one reason. They hurt them less their and actually might make a save or two instead of being honest with the parent and saying maybe you should choose another sport or activity.

You bring up the pros, yes go take a look at their salaries. For instance Tim Howard, he is the third highest paid player on everton's team. Does that mean he's out of shape or not as good as the two ahead of him? Howard is arguabley the best player on his team. A great GK is the most valuable PC of the team to have, problem is, there is not enough of them to go around. Who as a young child wants to throw their body into harms way over a ball or a game. Takes a very unique athlete to do this both physically and mentally.

You say it's not physical or demanding? That's laughable and that's why I don't take you seriously. Go play a game or two at keeper at the highest level in your age and then comeback and say it's not physical? You have obviously not ever played GK and really don't know why you are commenting. Heck, I would challenge you to come to one of my DD's Training sessions and try and do what she does. Good shape, bad shape or no shape at all, You won't last 10 mins.

You must've gotten too many concussions playing keeper. I didn't say it wasn't physical or demanding, I said relative to field players, keepers are not as athletic, and any claim that keep is the most difficult position on the field is bogus.

I.Casillas is also one of the highest paid players, but keepers on average are the lowest paid. You can't grab one or two examples of the highest paid keeps in the world to make that point. Check the facts. If they were as valuable as you suggest, this simply wouldn't be the case. The market for keepers does not work counter to every other commodity in the world. Go grab the highest paid players at any other position and compare them to Tim Howard's salary. The gap will be massive for each and every position on the field.

And I can guarantee you, without hesitation, I wouldn't last 10 mins doing your daughter's keep training. LOL. Clear the fog from your head, that is 100% irrelevant.

Since you're obviously impaired, I'll leave you be to live in your delusional world where goalkeeping is the most difficult and physically demanding position in the sport, and thus they should be bestowed special protection and rights beyond those defined in the laws of the game.

Totally relevant to your comments. You act as though you know? Why is that? Did you play GK? Or did you just develop this wacky opinion by just standing on some sideline watching the out of shape, un-athletic GK from your DD's team play? I'd just like to know where your opinion originated?

by GGoat 29/07/14, 07:20 pm

HOLY CRAP THIS IS THE BEST POST EVER I can REALLY Stir things up lol. I love all these people calling keepers wimpy whiny not good athletes my fav is the guy who compared a nfl kicker being grazed to a keeper and forward running into each other with out pads. My daughter had a boyfriend that played football he he would say soccer is for wimps also. So she had him get on his knees and put his hands in the air put the ball 2 feet away from him backed up a few feet and started running in to kick the ball at him. He of course started screaming stop and curled up in a ball. SHE SAID THATS WHY YALL NEED PADS AND I HAVE 1 IN MY PURSE IF YOU NEED IT. I laughed so hard

by Zizou 29/07/14, 07:37 pm

by mommyme 29/07/14, 10:37 pm

I take offense and know my dd would, she's the GK, in saying she is the least physically fit on her team. Not one of her teammmates have ever wanted to participate in one of her gk practices after seeing one, she's invited them. I would suggest that anyone who questions a high level gk's fitness to go to a private keeper practice, then you might actually see why her teammates won't join in! Or her strength and conditioning, maybe the extra runs she does on her own even. Field players run some more on the field, that's it, that's the difference. Field players have specified skills and gk's have specialized skills. There are different levels of those in each position.

DD may not ever be the fastest but she puts in the miles just as her teammates do, comes in ahead of some and some come in ahead of her. DD is 6 ft of muscle with a little fluff but I guarantee you she is more physically fit then most people.

by futbollove 29/07/14, 11:10 pm

You show me a team where the GK is the most physically fit...and I'll show you a team that isn't very good!! lol!

by GGoat 29/07/14, 11:34 pm

Goal keeper moms and dads just remember we are always out numbered 10 to 1. My dd on most keepers practice longer and harder. During shooting drills while their kids are standing in line waiting to shoot ours are diving jumping and stopping shots

by mommyme 29/07/14, 11:58 pm

First, I didn't say most physically fit. Second, what do you consider physically fit? Being first in a run, running the farthest. No it's the ability of being able to do a combo of things physically.

Yes, gk's are probably not the fastest on the field with dribbling and passing but a field player wouldn't be able to do a gk's job as well as a gk in goal either.

Like I said, take your dd out to a high level gk's session and see how she does. Not your club's session but private with just her or a small group of two or three.

by Guest 30/07/14, 07:53 am

mommyme wrote:

Yes, gk's are probably not the fastest on the field with dribbling and passing but a field player wouldn't be able to do a gk's job as well as a gk in goal either.

Why do folks keep saying this? We already went over this multiple times in this thread. The best keepers are usually field players who haven't set foot in goal until they were well into their teens! Most countries don't even specialize goalkeepers at early ages like we do here. If field players couldn't transition and do what goalies do, you wouldn't see 15 year old field players pick up the goalie gloves and dominate the position within months and become highly recruited.

There are a FEW extraordinarily athletic keepers who could do what field players do. M.Nuer from Germany is a great example. True keeper sweeper, and spends a good deal of time OUTSIDE the 18 where he is afforded no protection. He is not at a disadvantage when he has to compete athletically outside the box. He is faster than most center backs, and covers more distance than almost all other keepers. But even this guy, as the Cadillac of keepers, is NOT the most athletic on his team. Players like t.muller and t.kroos cover nearly three times the distance at higher speeds. Go check the FIFA.com stats for World Cup 2014. Scroll to the bottom and look for the slowest speeds and least distance covered...m.neur won't be anywhere near the bottom, but the vast majority of other keepers will.

Goalkeeping is a specialized skill requiring a special person to do it well, but I haven't seen any argument they are the most athletic and have the hardest job other than "I dare you to try doing my kids workout." Lol. What's the point? Even if someone could produce anything suggesting they are the most athletic and have the hardest job, why would that mean they need any extra protections than they already have?

by Firebird 30/07/14, 08:48 am

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/07/tim-howard-usa-goalkeepers

by orbitzone2000 30/07/14, 08:55 am

futbollove wrote:You show me a team where the GK is the most physically fit...and I'll show you a team that isn't very good!!

Just an Idiotic statement! Why Fuel the fire? By the way your welcome to come check out my DD's team. I think they are pretty Good.

by Its Me 30/07/14, 09:10 am

On the keeper thing! Why don't you guys just agree to disagree. Problem solved! Yeah! Shocked

by futbollove 30/07/14, 09:45 am

orbitzone2000 wrote:
futbollove wrote:You show me a team where the GK is the most physically fit...and I'll show you a team that isn't very good!!
Just an Idiotic statement! Why Fuel the fire? By the way your welcome to come check out my DD's team. I think they are pretty Good.

If your DD's team is truly good, and by that I don't mean dump-and-run, get it to the fast forward up top "good", then I sincerely doubt that your DD is the most physically fit, athletic player on the field.

by futbollove 30/07/14, 09:48 am

Its Me wrote:On the keeper thing! Why don't you guys just agree to disagree. Problem solved! Yeah!

Keepers MAY be the toughest kids on the field, but their parents sure are sensitive!! jocolor

by Lefty 30/07/14, 10:42 am

futbollove wrote:
Its Me wrote:On the keeper thing! Why don't you guys just agree to disagree. Problem solved! Yeah!
Keepers MAY be the toughest kids on the field, but their parents sure are sensitive!!

+1

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